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 godardc wrote:

jcd386 wrote:


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 godardc wrote:
So, I'm doing my list right now and I have some questions for you guys who have already played some games.

What do you think about some plasma pistols for the VV ? Like, 2 or 3. Now that they don't overheat anymore, are cheap and we choose the casualities. It seems a good idea to gey some more punch.
The power axes seem better than the power mauls now, what a shame I modeled 4 with mauls

Tac squad seem really nerfed into oblivion this edition. They weren't particulary good before, but now they lost their 3+ armor (will usually get 4+ or 5+) and their AP5.
I used to play 3, I won't anymore.
As flamers are totally unplayable this edition, what weapons do you think I should give to my old flamer squad ? The others two already have plasma/combi plasma.

IIRC, a transport can transport several units, as long as it has the capacity. What do you think about two 5-men Tac squad with plasma/combi plasma in a drop pod ? 4 plasma weapons at rapid fire range, two units.

The chaplain seems to be buffed, his ability is an aura and isn't just for the first round anymore !

How do you plan to use your drop pods now ? I can't see myself using them with Tac squads and sternguard with combi are sooo expensive and I only have 1 sternguard unit

I think plasma pistols are better on them than melee weapons are. I would take a lot of them.

Tac squads are not great right now, however, flamers are amazing. D6 Auto hits is actually really strong, and wonderful in overwatch.

I think drop pods are too expensive for anything except sternguard and devastators, and then those are iffy.

Chaplains seem solid if you have 2+ assault units.

Actually, you make me think about devastators in drop pods, maybe with grav cannons, as they are heavy 4. Even with -1 to hit, they would hit several times. How does it works with a captain nearby ? Is a roll of 1 still considered a 1, or a 0 ? And a roll of 2 would be considered a 1, is that right ?
How are flamer great ? A Tac squad with 2 flamers would get about 7 auto hit, that about only 3 dead orks...
Speaking about orks, of a Tac squad with two flamers kill only about 7 orks in rapid fire range (3 for the flamers, 3 for the bolters, 1 for the heavy weapon), how are you handling hordes (termagaunts, orks, guards...) ?

You roll, re-roll any natural 1s, then -1 from all the final results.

So 20 (flamer and combi flamer) points doubles the infantry killing power of the unit? That seems okay to me.

I think we handle hordes with assault cannons, heavy flamers, hurricane bolters, storm botlers, and frag missiles.

 godardc wrote:


Actually, you make me think about devastators in drop pods, maybe with grav cannons, as they are heavy 4. Even with -1 to hit, they would hit several times. How does it works with a captain nearby ? Is a roll of 1 still considered a 1, or a 0 ? And a roll of 2 would be considered a 1, is that right ?

Rerolls happen before modifiers are applied. So you reroll 'natural' 1's for the captain.

 Flood wrote:


Rerolls happen before modifiers are applied. So you reroll 'natural' 1's for the captain.

jcd386 wrote:

You roll, re-roll any natural 1s, then -1 from all the final results.

So 20 (flamer and combi flamer) points doubles the infantry killing power of the unit? That seems okay to me.

I think we handle hordes with assault cannons, heavy flamers, hurricane bolters, storm botlers, and frag missiles.

Ok thanks !

Indeed, looking at it this way that seems pretty powerful. But still, I'm looking for a more efficient way to clean hordes.
Whirlwinds seem to be the new must have ? TFCs don't look as good as before, sadly.
Frags missiles really got buffed I think, I agree. So, 4 ML devastator, I have that. I think (venerable) dreads, kitted out with ML, assault cannons and/or twin auto cannons may be powerful hordes killer too.
LS have several weapons pretty useful against hordes, but are so pricey now ! The same for the LR Crusader: full of anti infantry weapons, but you get to pay for this.

I guess I will buy a second stormbolter on my rhinos !

Have you tried the tactical terminators ? I'm looking forward playing some, I love the models.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Give it to me straight lads.

Exactly how competitive could I expect a Black Templars list to be?

By that I mean, lots of Crusade squads with BT ICs, Vindicators and no psykers.

Personally i think it'll be good, this is the infantry spam edition and BT's do it better than any other chapter right now.

Imho all the current named IC's for them are well worth it except Grimaldus and his servitors who i think are good but not amazing, personally i'd replace him with the chaplain venerable dreadnoguth from the FW index since you're going to be taking a sword brother in your squads anyway so the loss of the LD bubble isn't a big deal and grimaldus does way less than the bug dead religious walker.

Outside of that i'd make sure to try and overlap different aura's as much as possible, If you have Helbrecht, and Emperor's champion Ancient AND apothecary i honestly don't know who snipers will want to pickoff first, since all of them will make your crusade squads beasts

The Vindicator will struggle to do the damage it used to except against a few weird targets, though it should hurt vehicles and MC's well enough, and whilst LRC are really good they're also prohibitively expensive toys that could be spent on more tooled up and well supported mobs of men.

I played against a unit of 5 tac termies and think they are pretty good. 20 storm bolter shots is great, 2 wounds makes them way harder to kill by forcing 2+ armor saves (my preferred way of killing them last edition), meaning you really have to focus grav, las, or overcharged plasma at them if you want to reliably kill them. I ended up shooting 2 las/plas razorbacks and a plasmagun from a scout squad at them, killing 2, and then charged 15 blood claws into them, killing 2 more, and the last one ran away after failing the morale check. In short, they can take quite a beating.

I think i will run some in my next game as SM / SW and use them as a deterrent against assaulting my vehicles. Deepstriking is probably the best way to deploy them, but more in my mind to get them within rapid fire range of something, or to get between a threat and something important than to count on the 9" charge.

I have a squad of centurions, unassembled. I was thinking of going heavy devastator build with lascannons and centurion missile launchers, but that's 420 points and I"m not sure if it's worth it. I think assault centurions would be a possibility, but it'd probably be best for countercharging with their slow movement, right? Is anyone using centurions for anything right now?

Jacksmiles wrote:
I have a squad of centurions, unassembled. I was thinking of going heavy devastator build with lascannons and centurion missile launchers, but that's 420 points and I"m not sure if it's worth it. I think assault centurions would be a possibility, but it'd probably be best for countercharging with their slow movement, right? Is anyone using centurions for anything right now?

I think putting an apothecary and chapter ancient near dev cents helps get your money's worth out of them. They output a lot of fire power if you go first, and you may be able to hide them behind things if you don't. With the ancient you get some shots of they die, and the apothecary brings some guys back which i think helps a lot.

I'd just make sure that you either have other scary things to shoot at, or that them soaking up fire ends up being worth it for your list.

GAdvance wrote:
Do we have a confirmation of multiply then add in the new rules, I haven't seen it myself.

Also just to add to the chaplain dread pain train, Helbrecht has the same aura, crusader squads backed by a dead chaplain and a golden armoured chapter master... I haven't a name for that yet lol

Its the second paragraph under "Modifying Characteristics" found in the sidebar on page 175.

Have you tried venerable dreadnoughts ? I think shooty ones, with two shooting weapons, and maybe near a captain/lieutnant could be very efficient, as they are cheap (about 130 points), easy to hide, not too easy to kill, have a good range and have high rate of fire weapons.

Honestly I am looking at FW mortis dreadnaughts because what they bring for their points cost is pretty solid. 175 gets you 4 lascannon shots, 141 gets you 8 autocannon shots.....

Same for the contemptor only 31 more points

Yeah......Take that Razorback Spam

 godardc wrote:
Have you tried venerable dreadnoughts ? I think shooty ones, with two shooting weapons, and maybe near a captain/lieutnant could be very efficient, as they are cheap (about 130 points), easy to hide, not too easy to kill, have a good range and have high rate of fire weapons.

Venerable Dreadnoughts with two Twin Autocannons can volley off 8 shots at S7 w/ an AP modifier that do 2 damage each, and they hit on a 2+. They can shoot as well moving as regular Dreads do standing still, and they're more survivable. I plan to test them out pretty extensively.

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Have you tried venerable dreadnoughts ? I think shooty ones, with two shooting weapons, and maybe near a captain/lieutnant could be very efficient, as they are cheap (about 130 points), easy to hide, not too easy to kill, have a good range and have high rate of fire weapons.

Venerable Dreadnoughts with two Twin Autocannons can volley off 8 shots at S7 w/ an AP modifier that do 2 damage each, and they hit on a 2+. They can shoot as well moving as regular Dreads do standing still, and they're more survivable. I plan to test them out pretty extensively.

Look forward to hearing how they compare for the points to contemptors, mortis contemptors, and relic contemptors

I'm going to give a solid try to the Relic Leviathan Dreadnought with Storm cannon batteries. Sure, 330ish points, but 20 shots, at S7 AP-2 2 Damage seems good. And the 14 wounds with a 4+ invul makes them incredibly hard to put down without large amounts of mortal wounds coming their way.

Hektik wrote:
I'm going to give a solid try to the Relic Leviathan Dreadnought with Storm cannon batteries. Sure, 330ish points, but 20 shots, at S7 AP-2 2 Damage seems good. And the 14 wounds with a 4+ invul makes them incredibly hard to put down without large amounts of mortal wounds coming their way.

My issue is that it would be bullied in melee too easily.

Asking for a friend: How are Las/Missle Centurion squads, with a nearby Apothocary for returning wounds/dead models?

Seems pricey as hell, but my friend insists that they cost twice a Las Pred, but have similar output damage-wise.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Asking for a friend: How are Las/Missle Centurion squads, with a nearby Apothocary for returning wounds/dead models?

Seems pricey as hell, but my friend insists that they cost twice a Las Pred, but have similar output damage-wise.

IIRC, they are 2 lascannons and D3 missile shots EACH, with a minimum of three. So each guy will have similar damage output to a quad-las predator (D3 missiles vs 2 lascannons is pretty close, favoring lascannons). That said, they are slightly cheaper, but much more fragile. The apothecary adds to their staying power, but also increases their cost. If you are hurting for Heavy slots, it's a crap ton of fire power for 1 slot, but I think you can find more points effective fire support elsewhere. I mean, for their cost you could get something like 4 double las razorbacks, or a fully decked out stormraven AND a razorback.

 Carnage43 wrote:
I mean, for their cost you could get something like 4 double las razorbacks

at least 3 troop slots are accounted for but you end up needed to pay a bit more for another unit unless you are going full ham on troops or another dev squad.

Oh the centurions also get ignore cover save and no move penalties.

 Carnage43 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Asking for a friend: How are Las/Missle Centurion squads, with a nearby Apothocary for returning wounds/dead models?

Seems pricey as hell, but my friend insists that they cost twice a Las Pred, but have similar output damage-wise.

IIRC, they are 2 lascannons and D3 missile shots EACH, with a minimum of three. So each guy will have similar damage output to a quad-las predator (D3 missiles vs 2 lascannons is pretty close, favoring lascannons). That said, they are slightly cheaper, but much more fragile. The apothecary adds to their staying power, but also increases their cost. If you are hurting for Heavy slots, it's a crap ton of fire power for 1 slot, but I think you can find more points effective fire support elsewhere. I mean, for their cost you could get something like 4 double las razorbacks, or a fully decked out stormraven AND a razorback.

I know he had a bunch of AC Razorbacks in his list, but wants to try low number of drops for 1st Turn at high-odds. I think he also needs two Heavy slots filled as he also wants to take two Relic something or other Dreads.

For the cents I would only get the Lascannons and take the hurricane bolters in the chest. For what they do hurricane bolters are a steal points wise and you should aim to bring as many as you can, even if its just to take the cheaper option haha.

Centurions seem pretty awesome. Unlike predators it's pretty easy to get cover for them. They can even get into a building if you want. I think that's probably a good idea, given how soft they are.

If you've got las elsewhere then heavy/hurricane bolter centurions spit out a lot of shots. They are far cheaper than las guys, but do a different job of course.

As for assault guys, if you're taking a land raider or storm raven, these guys are a good option to ride in it. Otherwise I think stay away.

 Fruzzle wrote:

3x tac squad with dual special(say 2x dual melta 1x dual plasma)

Tacticals can take 2 special weapons now? Or do you mean to say special + combi-weapon? I haven't picked up the rules yet and I don't recall hearing anything about Tacticals being able to take two specials now.

He probably means the Combi. It's close enough rules-wise at least.

So lets get competitive lets think here.


We actually have a pretty stong codex. So lets assume 2000 is a reasonable point game.


Hq

Captain with jump pack 91


Chaplain/librarian/captain in terminator armor. 115 - 145


elites

terminator squad assault cannon 273


troops
10 man Tactical Combi flamer / flamer plasma combi plasma missile launcher 130 17 (flamer) 28 (plasma) 25 missile launcher

10 man tactical opposite of first missile launcher

10 man tactical or 10 man scout w/ snipers


Dedicated transport

Razorback All three heavy bolter (82 ea) or Assault cannon (100 ea)

or Rhino w/ storm bolter 72


Fliers

Storm talon gunship 110 or 160 w/typhoon

Storm talon gunship 110


Heavy Support

Centurion devastator squad las cannon missile launcher 460

Stalker or hunter (if you have loaded dice) 90


The list might be expensive but it holds. theres no one thing that wins you the game and no one thing they can kill to lose you it. [edit I suck at learning new point system"

Personally i like the idea of adding in some land speeders and taking the rhinos or adding in an assault squad. a devastator squad could do alright depending. Or just adding a contemptor in for some more melee defence.







So im a little conflicted with storm talons it seems the best way to kit them is to leave them as they are. they feel fine unless you really are going against armies with a lord of war or something worth two krak missiles instead of heavy bolters.

the captain is for your tanks or your devastators. his purpose is to be a mobile buff bubble but you could easily drop him for a cheap tank or a sniper squad depending on what you feel is useful.

i think this army gives enough in reserves and enough versatility to take out solid forces. I think its a decent skeleton to work an army around.what do you guys think?

2 thatssoeffingcool

Are sure with your calculation ?

terminator squad with assault cannon is 243 points

Xiber wrote:
2 thatssoeffingcool

Are sure with your calculation ?

terminator squad with assault cannon is 243 points

i was incorrect its actually only 151 points. its a 5 man squad you really dont need 10 with them its a bit excessive.

151pts is only 5 man with AC, you must pay for SB x4, PF x4 and power sword for sergeant, they are not included in model cost and are not optional, the only option is to upgrade PF to Chainfist

Xiber wrote:

Spoiler:

 thatssoeffingcool wrote:

Xiber wrote:
2 thatssoeffingcool

Are sure with your calculation ?

terminator squad with assault cannon is 243 points

i was incorrect its actually only 151 points. its a 5 man squad you really dont need 10 with them its a bit excessive.

151pts is only 5 man with AC, you must pay for SB x4, PF x4 and power sword for sergeant, they are not included in model cost and are not optional, the only option is to upgrade PF to Chainfist

oh for real. damn thats actually kinda confusing.


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i was probably way over points on my first few games then


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thenlist still holds though just cant do as many uogrades on the marines or just have to take the razors as rhinos

I had my first game the other night, and while not a super competitive list I had decent success against a Nid army.

HQ
Inquisitior
Captain
Lieutenant

Elites
4 Acolytes (2melta, 2plasma)
Eversor
Vindicare

Troops
5 marines x2
5 Intersessors x2
5 scouts (One Sniper squad, one hb and bolter squad)

Fast
3 Inceptors
3 Bikers (2 grav gun, one Stormbolter)
4 Scout Bikers (3 grenades)

Heavy
5 Hellblasters
5 Devs (2 Hb, 1 Plascannon, 1 Lascannon)
Stalker

The Scout bikers were really good, move and advance and shoot their grenades and shotguns. Supported by the Bikers and Inceptors.

Eversor is amazing, Vindicare not so much against nids.

Stalker was really good even at -1 to hit.

Troops did their job sitting on objectives and pushing the DS bubble to middle of the board (closer to his own deployment zone.

12 CP was the icing, plenty of re-rolls and interrupting assaults.

how'd the Inceptors do? I know there's been a lot of debate as to weather they are worth their points or not.

I dropped them next to 30 gaunts a fex and a tervigon. They cleared about 15 gaunts, got charged by the Fex (which fluffed its Rolls) ran away and shot some more gaunts.

Didn't get anywhere near their points back but they drew a few units from his army back towards his deployment zone breaking up his army for my other units to deal with.

Not sure if they are worth 225pts, or if a unit of assault Marines or termies would do the same job for more survivability.

Going to try them a few more times because I love the models.