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The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?
5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).
Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.
You're right actually, normal Spawn don't get the Allegience bonus, so no FNP for them, just the Giant Spawn. Normal Spawn also dont get legion traits, unfortunately. So the only buffs I could give them would be from a changeling (I'd never get scabiethrax, he's a hugely expensive lord of war and I dont generally use those haha).
Tzeentch is looking like a frontrunner at the moment, though slaneesh is also a close contender (expecially as it helps open up noise marines as troops)
Though Great Chaos Spawn does benefit from mark .Huge advantage of tzeentch here is that you can use EXCELLENT model of mutalith vortex beast as it's not present in 40k and still use it in AOS - that is if you play it aswell. But then again creative painting can turn Mutalith into Nice slimy green monstrosity that fits into Nurgle fluff.
Honestly Chaos spawns are great units ... but when you realized that for 2 chaos spawn and 9 extra points you can get great chaos spawn . Well I know what i would do . And so for me Nurgle is winner.
That is a pretty cool model, though I do currently have a conversion idea for a giant spawn that I may use. I'll save that model link though, just in case
True that I could get a Giant Spawn for the price of two normal Spawns, I was actually tempting to run a "squad" of 4xChaos Spawn and 1 or 2 Giant Spawns, as I could get all of that for about 280 points which would be a pretty difficult blob of chaos for an enemy to ignore. Though maybe the normal Spawns are a bit of a waste in comparison, other than as deepstrike bubblewrap.
The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?
5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).
Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.
You're right actually, normal Spawn don't get the Allegience bonus, so no FNP for them, just the Giant Spawn. Normal Spawn also dont get legion traits, unfortunately. So the only buffs I could give them would be from a changeling (I'd never get scabiethrax, he's a hugely expensive lord of war and I dont generally use those haha).
Tzeentch is looking like a frontrunner at the moment, though slaneesh is also a close contender (expecially as it helps open up noise marines as troops)
Though Great Chaos Spawn does benefit from mark .Huge advantage of tzeentch here is that you can use EXCELLENT model of mutalith vortex beast as it's not present in 40k and still use it in AOS - that is if you play it aswell. But then again creative painting can turn Mutalith into Nice slimy green monstrosity that fits into Nurgle fluff.
Honestly Chaos spawns are great units ... but when you realized that for 2 chaos spawn and 9 extra points you can get great chaos spawn . Well I know what i would do . And so for me Nurgle is winner.
That is a pretty cool model, though I do currently have a conversion idea for a giant spawn that I may use. I'll save that model link though, just in case
True that I could get a Giant Spawn for the price of two normal Spawns, I was actually tempting to run a "squad" of 4xChaos Spawn and 1 or 2 Giant Spawns, as I could get all of that for about 280 points which would be a pretty difficult blob of chaos for an enemy to ignore. Though maybe the normal Spawns are a bit of a waste in comparison, other than as deepstrike bubblewrap.
Definitely would go with 4 giant spawn for 300 over a bunch of smaller spawn. Thats great target saturation, at least 2, if not more, should reach combat.
Can confirm 4-6 is the right amount for Giant Spawn. Makes it almost impossible to wipe them all.
I look forward to adding more to my current collection of 3 Vortex Beasts, but I believe my next venture is going to be converting Primaris Reivers into Alpha Legion Berzerkers.
You won't often run and charge Noise Marines. Berzerkers it could benefit from, but you'd more often prefer either dropping them from an Assault Claw or Infiltrating them with Alpha Legion.
Arachnofiend wrote:If you're running an Undivided chapter the zerkers can get a turn 1 charge with warptime, move->advance->move->advance.
That's assuming you pass the psychic test, though at least it can't be denied at that range. Might need to use a CP to reroll a dice if you're unlucky.
Cephalobeard wrote:Can confirm 4-6 is the right amount for Giant Spawn. Makes it almost impossible to wipe them all.
I look forward to adding more to my current collection of 3 Vortex Beasts, but I believe my next venture is going to be converting Primaris Reivers into Alpha Legion Berzerkers.
I tend to avoid spamming any particular units in my armies, because I find it boring to model and paint loads of identical things when I have other options! I would likely end up converting two Giant Spawn models, but I doubt I would do more than that. I was going to get a maulerfiend to go with them.
edit: tempting to get a slaughterbrute to run as a spined beast though edit2: hmm spined beast is very pricey. might just run it as another giant spawn - nothing says that spawns should all look the same haha
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 22:02:04
Arachnofiend wrote:If you're running an Undivided chapter the zerkers can get a turn 1 charge with warptime, move->advance->move->advance.
That's assuming you pass the psychic test, though at least it can't be denied at that range. Might need to use a CP to reroll a dice if you're unlucky.
Cephalobeard wrote:Can confirm 4-6 is the right amount for Giant Spawn. Makes it almost impossible to wipe them all.
I look forward to adding more to my current collection of 3 Vortex Beasts, but I believe my next venture is going to be converting Primaris Reivers into Alpha Legion Berzerkers.
I tend to avoid spamming any particular units in my armies, because I find it boring to model and paint loads of identical things when I have other options! I would likely end up converting two Giant Spawn models, but I doubt I would do more than that. I was going to get a maulerfiend to go with them.
edit: tempting to get a slaughterbrute to run as a spined beast though edit2: hmm spined beast is very pricey. might just run it as another giant spawn - nothing says that spawns should all look the same haha
Glad you think that way. I don't like spam myself too. Buying whatever is OP now is stupid. Make army that you like and that looks like army actually not just mess and spam.
Sure that is not going to win you many tournaments, but hey .
I dont like spamming the same MODEL for that reason, but since I love to convert, I dont mind spamming units that all look different. After reading these responses, I might add 2-3 to my current walker assualt list. Currently using a bloodslaughterer, maulerfiend, contemptor, and slaanesh dp in almost every list. I think a few cheap giant spawn will help with target saturation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Must be an AL character, doesn't matter the detachment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/01 22:11:45
Taking it to a RTT tomorrow, I'll report back on how they do.
Does "I Am Alpharius" Warlord trait jump to any character, or only those from the same detachment as the initial Warlord?
The rule says any ALPHA LEGION CHARACTER in your army.
It doesn't specify detachment, so it can be any character that has been given the <legion> keyword of <ALPHA LEGION>. So if you had a second detachment of alpha legion units, any characters in that would count to it as well. Also, if you made a second detachment of random daemons or whatever, but made the HQ an alpha legion character, then he would be a viable target too. Though he wouldn't receive the benefit of the legion trait.
Slightly convoluted, but RAW that's what would happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I dont like spamming the same MODEL for that reason, but since I love to convert, I dont mind spamming units that all look different. After reading these responses, I might add 2-3 to my current walker assualt list. Currently using a bloodslaughterer, maulerfiend, contemptor, and slaanesh dp in almost every list. I think a few cheap giant spawn will help with target saturation.
I agree with this, and I may end up doing 3 or 4 seperate conversions that look totally different but are all fielded as "Giant Spawn"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 22:14:02
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: After looking at that vortex beast and its alternative set up (somekind of khorne thing i believe), I plan on 4, one for each god!
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: After looking at that vortex beast and its alternative set up (somekind of khorne thing i believe), I plan on 4, one for each god!
Good my heretic brother. Chaos got so much more to offer than loyalist scums, we are not so one dimensional more like quadruple dimensional
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: After looking at that vortex beast and its alternative set up (somekind of khorne thing i believe), I plan on 4, one for each god!
Are there any other notable daemon choices that would work well (perhaps with converted models) in a chaos mechanicum army?
Giant Spawn fitted for me as I had some cool plans for half-mech half-living flesh spawn (kind of like a maulerfiend that failed in its construction and became semi-formed mutated etc etc).
I'm considering seeker chariots, as they are kinda vehicles anyway so easily altered to be more mechanical.
Same thing with Burning Chariot models (herald or normal).
Herald on the flying disk of tzeentch could also be a good model, and would allow for a combo of herald on disc, a burning chariot, and changeling in a tzeentch based detachment.
Daemonettes I considered making using AdMech infiltrators with dual blades, however I could use those for berserkers instead maybe.
I dunno, lots of ideas. Anyone with some good ideas for me to try and focus my list I'd appreciate!
The khorne gun/chariot thing would probably work for a daemon-vehicle of somekind.
On another note, until daemon codex drops, what are some of our options (as CSM players) for a small detachment of daemons to fit in some buffing units (heralds/changeling, etc) while keeping our army battle forged. As of yet, I have almost no experience using daemons.
ZergSmasher wrote: Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.
I too would like some feedback on this, for the same reason. A dreadclaw can easily be made from a drop pod kit, which is much cheaper money wise than forgeworld (obviously).
I have found Dreadclaws to be an outstanding Plasma Chosen delivery system. Endless Cacaphony them and ensure re-rolls on 1's and you've deleted all but the most robust of targets. If you are running them like this, you don't need Warptime on the squad - instead, the Dreadclaw's highly unusual aura attack makes it a very interesting candidate instead. Especially to rendezvous with Nurgle Raptors, making those Morale losses mount up!
I considered using them to drop Helbrutes... but. But. On arrival, your brutes are unlikely to charge, and won't be in heavy Flamer range. So what are they doing for all those points, popping off a multi-melta shot? And the transport costs more then them, so you could have just ran two of them at the enemy instead.
A Contemptor? Now, that's con-tempting.
Berzerkers would be interesting but I'd like to drop in at least two Squads, maybe three, to be sure of actually making the long shot charge.
If you're playing a Narrative game, Possessed and a bunch of Characters make a decent Daemon factory. If you're doing Word Bearers, this is the time to sit up and take a sip of coffee because you're suddenly the most terrifying force in the game, bringing in Be'lakor or thirty Plaguebearers without difficulty.
On a creative note, if you like Daemonic vehicles then a Tyrannocyte also makes a fine basis for a conversion. And if that's how you go, then bulking one up into a Kharybdis saves a lot of tinkering with heavy chunks of resin.
whembly wrote: Does anyone have experience playing Obliterator units? Are they effective enough?
I've found them to be so effective that they quickly become a distraction carnifex. In Cities of Death they are incredible; drop them on a tall building and nuke a unit every turn with Death In The Streets until someone finds enough dakka to get through their now formidable save.
---
Now, I've got a game next week, with everyone planning to bring at least 120 power. It'll be three players, with a square table divided into six DZ's, with each player placing two objectives. Death From The Skies, if there's a few Flyers. We might go Maelstrom, it seems to be a lot of fun; if not, we'll drop a seventh objective in the middle of the table to spice things up. I've drafted a couple of 120 lists, and I'll bring a bunch of Flesh Hounds and Plaguebearers to Summon if it ends up more than that. Here's the plans:
Spoiler:
BATTALION - 23
Dark Apostle: Power Maul, Bolt Pistol
Sorcerer: Force Sword, Bolt Pistol, PRESCIENCE, DEATH HEX
20 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
SPEARHEAD - 35
Chaos Lord: Combi-Melta, Power Fist
10 Havocs: 4 Missile Launchers, Combi Plasma, Icon of Excess
10 Havocs: 4 Plasma Gun, Combi Plasma, Power Axe, Icon of Excess
3 Obliterators
OUTRIDERS - 32
Daemon Prince with Wings, Sword, WARPTIME
Dreadclaw
5 Raptors: 2 Melta, Combi Melta, Power Fist, Icon of Despair
5 Warp Talons
There WILL be Genestealer blobs. Hell Talon neuters them. There WILL be a Stormfang. Hell Blade helps tame that, hopefully fly up its backside. There WILL be Wolf Guard Terminators and Njal, Sorcerer helps with DTW coverage & encourages them to take their Storm Shields to the Tyranids instead.
Lord hangs with the Sorcerer and long range Havocs on Home objective. Dreadclaw drops Plasma Gunners on an objective, Daemon Prince will rendezvous with them and try to Warptime the Dreadclaw into the middle of some nice targets - or the Warp Talons on some nasty gunners who need Overwatch denial. Dark Apostle leads an infantry horde at another Objective, with the big front wave getting recycled for 2CP to maybe have a crack at a backfield objective - perhaps with Obliterators, Raptors, and Heldrake if they aren't needed elsewhere.
Alternatively, and netting three more CPs for those lovely Endless Cacophonies:
Spoiler:
WORD BEARERS BRIGADE - 120
HQ - 25
Daemon Prince with Wings, Sword, VOICE OF LORGAR
Dark Apostle: CURSED CROZIUS, Bolt Pistol
Sorcerer: Force Sword, Bolt Pistol
Chaos Lord: Combi-Melta, Power Fist
ELITES - 25
10 Chosen: Combi Plasma, 5 Plasma, Power Axe, Icon of Excess
Helbrute: two Fists, two Heavy Flamer
Helbrute: twin Lascannnon, fist, combi-Bolter
FAST ATTACK - 25
Dreadclaw
5 Raptors: 2 Melta, Combi Melta, Power Fist, Icon of Despair
5 Warp Talons
HEAVY SUPPORT - 24
5 Havocs: 4 Missile Launchers, Combi Melta
5 Havocs: 4 Autocannon, Combi Plasma
3 Obliterators
Stormfang is denied stuff to Dogfight at preposterous range. Dark Apostle gets a Zangiefbrute to knock heads or torch Genestealers. Dreadclaw squad gets a big upgrade for a low price. The other Havocs get twice as many guns - and a Lasbrute to really scarecrow Termies. Fire Frenzy with Lord and maybe Prescience will HURT. Likewise if Genestealers get themselves within 8" of Flamebrute.
I might make the DA have VOL. He's more likely to find himself fall behind. But then, he's also a lot easier to kill if he leads near the front, and we don't want a dead Warlord.
Good points about the Dreadclaw, thanks very much for that! I'm considering getting myself some Noise Marines and I have some Plasma Chosen, so maybe it's time to make myself a Dreadclaw to drop them in.
I'm going to be playing in an ITC event next weekend, so I'm interested in some feedback on this CSM list. I feel like it's solid, but I'd be interested in some feedback or suggestions to make it better.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
So i just re-read the daemonic ritual stuff in the astartes codex, and am I right to say that the ritual is voluntary? And, if this is the case, does that include all Daemons, not just the ones in the astartes codex? For fluff reasons I like the idea of having some random daemon units running around with my astartes, but being a EC player its simply not worth running daemonnetes over NM, and i do like the look of some of the other slaaneshi/neutral daemons. Would i be able to run them all in the same detachment without losing EC bonuses as well?
thundertau wrote: So i just re-read the daemonic ritual stuff in the astartes codex, and am I right to say that the ritual is voluntary? And, if this is the case, does that include all Daemons, not just the ones in the astartes codex? For fluff reasons I like the idea of having some random daemon units running around with my astartes, but being a EC player its simply not worth running daemonnetes over NM, and i do like the look of some of the other slaaneshi/neutral daemons. Would i be able to run them all in the same detachment without losing EC bonuses as well?
Voluntary? Not sure what you mean... if you mean can you choose whether or not to try and summon some daemons, then yes you can. You can only summon if you don't move at all that turn (with that character), so seems obvious that you can choose not to summon... or all characters would be stationary for the whole game!
You can summon any daemon with the "daemonic ritual" ability. You dont need that ability to do the summoning, you just need to be a <CHAOS> <CHARACTER>, but in order to BE summoned, you need the ability. That includes most daemons from the daemons codex, but not things like maulerfiends.
As far as daemonettes vs noise marines... I dunno. They do different jobs.
And about losing legion traits, thats an interesting one.
sically, if you start the game with daemons on the table in your EC detachment, then you lose traits for everyone.
BUT
If you start with just a pool of reserve points, and no daemons on the table, then your marines get their traits. And then you can summon stuff during the game and the trait remains unaffected. Daemons dont get access to the trait though of course.
thundertau wrote: So i just re-read the daemonic ritual stuff in the astartes codex, and am I right to say that the ritual is voluntary? And, if this is the case, does that include all Daemons, not just the ones in the astartes codex? For fluff reasons I like the idea of having some random daemon units running around with my astartes, but being a EC player its simply not worth running daemonnetes over NM, and i do like the look of some of the other slaaneshi/neutral daemons. Would i be able to run them all in the same detachment without losing EC bonuses as well?
Voluntary? Not sure what you mean... if you mean can you choose whether or not to try and summon some daemons, then yes you can. You can only summon if you don't move at all that turn (with that character), so seems obvious that you can choose not to summon... or all characters would be stationary for the whole game!
You can summon any daemon with the "daemonic ritual" ability. You dont need that ability to do the summoning, you just need to be a <CHAOS> <CHARACTER>, but in order to BE summoned, you need the ability. That includes most daemons from the daemons codex, but not things like maulerfiends.
As far as daemonettes vs noise marines... I dunno. They do different jobs.
And about losing legion traits, thats an interesting one.
sically, if you start the game with daemons on the table in your EC detachment, then you lose traits for everyone.
BUT
If you start with just a pool of reserve points, and no daemons on the table, then your marines get their traits. And then you can summon stuff during the game and the trait remains unaffected. Daemons dont get access to the trait though of course.
by voluntary i meant weather we can start on the field or reserve, as when I last played (4th edition) they always started in reserve, still adjusting to RAW. but, your last answer seems to answer that anyway, and is interesting. I could see a few tricks here, I'm already thinking of a basic lord sitting with my NM and sonic hellbrutes just for the reroll, could use him to summon things without disrupting the flow of the force, or just have him in a detachment with daemons to not worry about losing out on traits.
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Diabolic Strength
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-plasma, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 139pts]: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Prescience, Warptime
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle in a Rhino with Berzerkers, another Rhino right behind with 10 Berzerkers as backup. Disc Sorcerer slingshots the first Rhino up with Warptime and hopefully the first Rhino squad can get a charge off by turn 2, followed by the second Rhino squad in turn 3. Exalted Champion with the Murder Sword to go character hunting, especially useful against armies that are reliant on a specific character as a lynchpin to their army. Being a WE means he gets an extra attack and with Diabolic Strength and the +1 attack Warlord trait, he can reasonably get off enough attacks to kill a 6 wound character in a single round of fighting just from successful hits, especially considering he hits on a 2+ and can reroll failed hits near a Dark Apostle.
Terminators and Terminator Sorcerer deep strike in turn 2, Terminator Sorcerer casts Delightful Agonies and Warptime on the Terrminators while the Disc Sorcerer casts Prescience on them. Activate Endless Cacophony and pretty much anything the Terminators shoot at is dead, followed by a near guaranteed charge due to closing the distance with Warptime. Icon of Excess + Prescience means DTTFE activates on a 4+ and along with the Daemon Prince hopefully nearby, they'll be attacking with Power Fists on 3+ rerolling 1's with 4's generating an extra attack. CSM are off securing objectives while the Berzerker blob hunts around for enemies. Only thing I don't like about this list is that the Rhinos are going to be very vulnerable while they're going up the table so I'll need to be smart with maneuvering them.
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 81pts]: Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 157pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 191pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Same units and strategy as the previous list, except the whole army is Alpha Legion for that sweet -1 to hit trait, at least giving the Rhinos some level of protection as they go up the board at the cost of 2 CP and less effective Berzerkers compared to WE Berzerkers.
Comparing the two lists, is it worth it to have better Berzerkers and +2 CP but more vulnerable Rhinos or -1 to hit Rhinos (plus the whole army to boot) but lose out on 2 CP and having slightly less effective Berzerkers?
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Diabolic Strength
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-plasma, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 139pts]: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Prescience, Warptime
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle in a Rhino with Berzerkers, another Rhino right behind with 10 Berzerkers as backup. Disc Sorcerer slingshots the first Rhino up with Warptime and hopefully the first Rhino squad can get a charge off by turn 2, followed by the second Rhino squad in turn 3. Exalted Champion with the Murder Sword to go character hunting, especially useful against armies that are reliant on a specific character as a lynchpin to their army. Being a WE means he gets an extra attack and with Diabolic Strength and the +1 attack Warlord trait, he can reasonably get off enough attacks to kill a 6 wound character in a single round of fighting just from successful hits, especially considering he hits on a 2+ and can reroll failed hits near a Dark Apostle.
Terminators and Terminator Sorcerer deep strike in turn 2, Terminator Sorcerer casts Delightful Agonies and Warptime on the Terrminators while the Disc Sorcerer casts Prescience on them. Activate Endless Cacophony and pretty much anything the Terminators shoot at is dead, followed by a near guaranteed charge due to closing the distance with Warptime. Icon of Excess + Prescience means DTTFE activates on a 4+ and along with the Daemon Prince hopefully nearby, they'll be attacking with Power Fists on 3+ rerolling 1's with 4's generating an extra attack. CSM are off securing objectives while the Berzerker blob hunts around for enemies. Only thing I don't like about this list is that the Rhinos are going to be very vulnerable while they're going up the table so I'll need to be smart with maneuvering them.
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 81pts]: Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 157pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 191pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Same units and strategy as the previous list, except the whole army is Alpha Legion for that sweet -1 to hit trait, at least giving the Rhinos some level of protection as they go up the board at the cost of 2 CP and less effective Berzerkers compared to WE Berzerkers.
Comparing the two lists, is it worth it to have better Berzerkers and +2 CP but more vulnerable Rhinos or -1 to hit Rhinos (plus the whole army to boot) but lose out on 2 CP and having slightly less effective Berzerkers?
Traits only effect infantry and bikers and helbrutes, so tanks don't get the -1 to hit anyway. So your second list doesnt have any advantages over the first (as the beserkers will only get the trait when they leave the transport, and that will be within 12" of the enemy so the trait wouldn't matter anyway).
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Diabolic Strength
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-plasma, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 139pts]: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Prescience, Warptime
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle in a Rhino with Berzerkers, another Rhino right behind with 10 Berzerkers as backup. Disc Sorcerer slingshots the first Rhino up with Warptime and hopefully the first Rhino squad can get a charge off by turn 2, followed by the second Rhino squad in turn 3. Exalted Champion with the Murder Sword to go character hunting, especially useful against armies that are reliant on a specific character as a lynchpin to their army. Being a WE means he gets an extra attack and with Diabolic Strength and the +1 attack Warlord trait, he can reasonably get off enough attacks to kill a 6 wound character in a single round of fighting just from successful hits, especially considering he hits on a 2+ and can reroll failed hits near a Dark Apostle.
Terminators and Terminator Sorcerer deep strike in turn 2, Terminator Sorcerer casts Delightful Agonies and Warptime on the Terrminators while the Disc Sorcerer casts Prescience on them. Activate Endless Cacophony and pretty much anything the Terminators shoot at is dead, followed by a near guaranteed charge due to closing the distance with Warptime. Icon of Excess + Prescience means DTTFE activates on a 4+ and along with the Daemon Prince hopefully nearby, they'll be attacking with Power Fists on 3+ rerolling 1's with 4's generating an extra attack. CSM are off securing objectives while the Berzerker blob hunts around for enemies. Only thing I don't like about this list is that the Rhinos are going to be very vulnerable while they're going up the table so I'll need to be smart with maneuvering them.
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 81pts]: Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 157pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 191pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Same units and strategy as the previous list, except the whole army is Alpha Legion for that sweet -1 to hit trait, at least giving the Rhinos some level of protection as they go up the board at the cost of 2 CP and less effective Berzerkers compared to WE Berzerkers.
Comparing the two lists, is it worth it to have better Berzerkers and +2 CP but more vulnerable Rhinos or -1 to hit Rhinos (plus the whole army to boot) but lose out on 2 CP and having slightly less effective Berzerkers?
Traits only effect infantry and bikers and helbrutes, so tanks don't get the -1 to hit anyway. So your second list doesnt have any advantages over the first (as the beserkers will only get the trait when they leave the transport, and that will be within 12" of the enemy so the trait wouldn't matter anyway).
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Diabolic Strength
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-plasma, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 139pts]: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Prescience, Warptime
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle in a Rhino with Berzerkers, another Rhino right behind with 10 Berzerkers as backup. Disc Sorcerer slingshots the first Rhino up with Warptime and hopefully the first Rhino squad can get a charge off by turn 2, followed by the second Rhino squad in turn 3. Exalted Champion with the Murder Sword to go character hunting, especially useful against armies that are reliant on a specific character as a lynchpin to their army. Being a WE means he gets an extra attack and with Diabolic Strength and the +1 attack Warlord trait, he can reasonably get off enough attacks to kill a 6 wound character in a single round of fighting just from successful hits, especially considering he hits on a 2+ and can reroll failed hits near a Dark Apostle.
Terminators and Terminator Sorcerer deep strike in turn 2, Terminator Sorcerer casts Delightful Agonies and Warptime on the Terrminators while the Disc Sorcerer casts Prescience on them. Activate Endless Cacophony and pretty much anything the Terminators shoot at is dead, followed by a near guaranteed charge due to closing the distance with Warptime. Icon of Excess + Prescience means DTTFE activates on a 4+ and along with the Daemon Prince hopefully nearby, they'll be attacking with Power Fists on 3+ rerolling 1's with 4's generating an extra attack. CSM are off securing objectives while the Berzerker blob hunts around for enemies. Only thing I don't like about this list is that the Rhinos are going to be very vulnerable while they're going up the table so I'll need to be smart with maneuvering them.
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 81pts]: Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 157pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 191pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Same units and strategy as the previous list, except the whole army is Alpha Legion for that sweet -1 to hit trait, at least giving the Rhinos some level of protection as they go up the board at the cost of 2 CP and less effective Berzerkers compared to WE Berzerkers.
Comparing the two lists, is it worth it to have better Berzerkers and +2 CP but more vulnerable Rhinos or -1 to hit Rhinos (plus the whole army to boot) but lose out on 2 CP and having slightly less effective Berzerkers?
Traits only effect infantry and bikers and helbrutes, so tanks don't get the -1 to hit anyway. So your second list doesnt have any advantages over the first (as the beserkers will only get the trait when they leave the transport, and that will be within 12" of the enemy so the trait wouldn't matter anyway).
Good to know! So the WE + AL list is just objectively better then? How is it otherwise? Also, has anyone had any success with the Murder Sword? It seems like a fun relic that might just be only good on paper and not so much on practice, if that's the case I might just go with Intoxicating Elixir on a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince. I'm also considering switch the Supreme Command Detachment from AL into Renegades since I'm not sure how much they'll actually be taking advantage of the -1 to hit when they'll likely be stuck in CC or short range ideally. Thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 05:36:45
Lord of skulls is better than renegade knight. More hp, fights better, has infernal regen, and can be from the same legion as your army, so it can benefit from aura buffs, strategems, plus it can have spells cast on it too. A Lord of skulls warptimed into a first turn charge can be very scary indeed.
The same LOS that gets demonforge strategem used on it hits like a truck in that phase. (Not that it doesn't already hit like a truck, but imagine getting rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound during your LOS shooting phase. lol)
I've been musing over my Word Bearers, and I'm really struggling to see how their Trait is much better than adding a few Daemons to detachments. A re-rollable die has an average result around 4.1; sure, it may mean sometimes not having to choose between a weapon specialist or an icon bearer, and it's decent when you roll a one, but is that really much better than having a bunch of Nurglings screen deep strikers and claim objectives on turn zero? Having a handful of Fiends able to lock a horde in combat with zerks? And all the rest? Especially if you're trying to fill a Brigade, it feels like adding some specialist Daemon units will add more to the army.
lindsay40k wrote: I've been musing over my Word Bearers, and I'm really struggling to see how their Trait is much better than adding a few Daemons to detachments. A re-rollable die has an average result around 4.1; sure, it may mean sometimes not having to choose between a weapon specialist or an icon bearer, and it's decent when you roll a one, but is that really much better than having a bunch of Nurglings screen deep strikers and claim objectives on turn zero? Having a handful of Fiends able to lock a horde in combat with zerks? And all the rest? Especially if you're trying to fill a Brigade, it feels like adding some specialist Daemon units will add more to the army.
Adding daemons to a CSM detachment to bring it up to a brigade will mean all CSM units in the detachment will lose their legion trait. Might be worth it to you though, it would depend on how useful your trait is to your particular army list.
Also the Word Bearers trait is a reroll to morale tests, I'm guessing you're talking about the 1CP strategem.
. And so for me Nurgle is winner.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
