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Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I've been musing over my Word Bearers, and I'm really struggling to see how their Trait is much better than adding a few Daemons to detachments. A re-rollable die has an average result around 4.1; sure, it may mean sometimes not having to choose between a weapon specialist or an icon bearer, and it's decent when you roll a one, but is that really much better than having a bunch of Nurglings screen deep strikers and claim objectives on turn zero? Having a handful of Fiends able to lock a horde in combat with zerks? And all the rest? Especially if you're trying to fill a Brigade, it feels like adding some specialist Daemon units will add more to the army.

Adding daemons to a CSM detachment to bring it up to a brigade will mean all CSM units in the detachment will lose their legion trait. Might be worth it to you though, it would depend on how useful your trait is to your particular army list.

Also the Word Bearers trait is a reroll to morale tests, I'm guessing you're talking about the 1CP strategem.

No, it's the morale re-rolls I'm talking about. The stratagem is incredible outside of matched play, but that's not a problem. I'm finding that access to deployed Daemons is more powerful than rerolling morale. Hell, give me access to Alpha Legion and Night Lords stratagems in a multi legion detachment.

New question: are land raiders worth the cost over a las Predator? The notion that everything has assault vehicle is absolutely false - the fact that they can't move and then kick out the inhabitants, and have lost 2" from max move, seems to make them a liability for a Terminator attack. Only advantage over teleporting is ability to drive through a DS screen.

Rhinos seem to be decent, but raiders... I'm just not seeing their use. Could take twice the firepower in Havocs or Predators for the same price.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I've been musing over my Word Bearers, and I'm really struggling to see how their Trait is much better than adding a few Daemons to detachments. A re-rollable die has an average result around 4.1; sure, it may mean sometimes not having to choose between a weapon specialist or an icon bearer, and it's decent when you roll a one, but is that really much better than having a bunch of Nurglings screen deep strikers and claim objectives on turn zero? Having a handful of Fiends able to lock a horde in combat with zerks? And all the rest? Especially if you're trying to fill a Brigade, it feels like adding some specialist Daemon units will add more to the army.

Adding daemons to a CSM detachment to bring it up to a brigade will mean all CSM units in the detachment will lose their legion trait. Might be worth it to you though, it would depend on how useful your trait is to your particular army list.

Also the Word Bearers trait is a reroll to morale tests, I'm guessing you're talking about the 1CP strategem.

No, it's the morale re-rolls I'm talking about. The stratagem is incredible outside of matched play, but that's not a problem. I'm finding that access to deployed Daemons is more powerful than rerolling morale. Hell, give me access to Alpha Legion and Night Lords stratagems in a multi legion detachment.

New question: are land raiders worth the cost over a las Predator? The notion that everything has assault vehicle is absolutely false - the fact that they can't move and then kick out the inhabitants, and have lost 2" from max move, seems to make them a liability for a Terminator attack. Only advantage over teleporting is ability to drive through a DS screen.

Rhinos seem to be decent, but raiders... I'm just not seeing their use. Could take twice the firepower in Havocs or Predators for the same price.

Ahh I see, sorry I was reading your question with the word bearers ability to summon daemons more easily in mind. Re-rolling morale isn't the best of traits no, but then there will be the few occasions where you roll badly and really wish you could! But then, you have CP's for that. I would say using daemons to build up your detachment into a brigade, and so get +9 CPs instead of +3 CPs, would be far more worthwhile than the legion trait. That's 6 morale rerolls right there, or you could use them on anything else you want. It's like buying someone a gift card for their birthday, when you could give them real money that can be spent anywhere!

I dunno about land raiders... they are expensive but they are damn hard to kill. However you're paying for their ability to deliver elite troops safely anywhere on the battlefield. If you're not actually using their transport ability, then you're much better off buying something else.

Kubi258 wrote:
Are renegade knights any good now and if yes which one ? Or is it better to take something like LoS or scorpion ?

had a game last night and rocking two repeater battle cannons proved rather good!
gatling cannon one is prob the best loadout.

issues to be aware of are thinking they are tough because they have 24 wounds. They can die in one round of shooting easily, for example my opponent put 14 wounds on one of mine from a single round of shooting from a ravager!
Its all about knowing the weapon ranges and using their 12" move wisely, basically dont go in gunho unless you know the enemy cant respond well.

 lindsay40k wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.

I too would like some feedback on this, for the same reason. A dreadclaw can easily be made from a drop pod kit, which is much cheaper money wise than forgeworld (obviously).

I have found Dreadclaws to be an outstanding Plasma Chosen delivery system. Endless Cacaphony them and ensure re-rolls on 1's and you've deleted all but the most robust of targets. If you are running them like this, you don't need Warptime on the squad - instead, the Dreadclaw's highly unusual aura attack makes it a very interesting candidate instead. Especially to rendezvous with Nurgle Raptors, making those Morale losses mount up!

I considered using them to drop Helbrutes... but. But. On arrival, your brutes are unlikely to charge, and won't be in heavy Flamer range. So what are they doing for all those points, popping off a multi-melta shot? And the transport costs more then them, so you could have just ran two of them at the enemy instead.

A Contemptor? Now, that's con-tempting.

Berzerkers would be interesting but I'd like to drop in at least two Squads, maybe three, to be sure of actually making the long shot charge.

If you're playing a Narrative game, Possessed and a bunch of Characters make a decent Daemon factory. If you're doing Word Bearers, this is the time to sit up and take a sip of coffee because you're suddenly the most terrifying force in the game, bringing in Be'lakor or thirty Plaguebearers without difficulty.

On a creative note, if you like Daemonic vehicles then a Tyrannocyte also makes a fine basis for a conversion. And if that's how you go, then bulking one up into a Kharybdis saves a lot of tinkering with heavy chunks of resin.

Dreadclaws are interesting but Kharybdis Assault Claw is a completely different vehicle. It's excellent as a vehicle killer, and this fact is often overlooked.

The KAC has 16 wounds compared to 10 on the Dreadclaw and both units move 15 inches. That mobility is not diminished by taking wounds.

Both units have abilities that make them beasts. For each model they kill in a turn, the unit gets to regenerate wounds on a 5+ for each model killed. It's explosion does D3 mortal wounds and D6 against psykers.

Unlike the Dreadclaw, the KAC has a special attack it gets on the charge against vehicles / monsters / titanic units. This attack is S 16 & does 2D6 damage at -5 AP. On subsequent turns, it does 8 S9 AP -2 2 D attacks. You get this plus the added transport capacity for about half the cost of a second Dreadclaw, which I think is worth it.

A lot of people look at the KAC as a delivery system for Khorne Berzerkers, but dropping assault units is not the optimal way to play it. I used it this way for a while, but opponents quickly learned how to counter by strategically placing units so the KAC can never land near anything interesting.

What I do instead is drop 2 squads of Noise Marines, a Sorcerer and an Exalted Champion. The Sorcerer casts Warptime on the KAC, allowing it to get into position to charge things like Wraithknights, Land Raiders, and Carniflexes. The Noise Marines proceed to mow down a couple squads with sonic weapons while rerolling all failed wounds because of the EC. The 24 inch range of the sonic blasters can be huge depending on where you put them, I always try to land in the center of the board to cover as much space as possible.

The NM drop is a brutal alpha strike where dying units have a lot of synergy. Between the NM's MotA and the KAC's explosion, you can do a lot of damage to an opponent. It gets to the point where you are almost waiting for your NMs to die so they can score a warlord kill or put some wounds on a bigger threat. The other thing about the KAC is it becomes a charge magnet, opponents like to keep it in combat to keep it from eating more vehicles. On the times it does explode, it is usually completely surrounded by multiple units.

Uh, the Exalted Champion's re-roll aura only works in the Fight phase. It won't affect your sonic weapons outside of the case of your Noise Marines dying in combat and firing their blasters. I think you might owe your opponents an apology.

I believe the exalted champions reroll to wound aura only worjs in melee, could be wrong though. Still like the idea of dropping in NM, just need to replace the EC with a Lord or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^beat me to it

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.

I too would like some feedback on this, for the same reason. A dreadclaw can easily be made from a drop pod kit, which is much cheaper money wise than forgeworld (obviously).

I have found Dreadclaws to be an outstanding Plasma Chosen delivery system. Endless Cacaphony them and ensure re-rolls on 1's and you've deleted all but the most robust of targets. If you are running them like this, you don't need Warptime on the squad - instead, the Dreadclaw's highly unusual aura attack makes it a very interesting candidate instead. Especially to rendezvous with Nurgle Raptors, making those Morale losses mount up!

I considered using them to drop Helbrutes... but. But. On arrival, your brutes are unlikely to charge, and won't be in heavy Flamer range. So what are they doing for all those points, popping off a multi-melta shot? And the transport costs more then them, so you could have just ran two of them at the enemy instead.

A Contemptor? Now, that's con-tempting.

Berzerkers would be interesting but I'd like to drop in at least two Squads, maybe three, to be sure of actually making the long shot charge.

If you're playing a Narrative game, Possessed and a bunch of Characters make a decent Daemon factory. If you're doing Word Bearers, this is the time to sit up and take a sip of coffee because you're suddenly the most terrifying force in the game, bringing in Be'lakor or thirty Plaguebearers without difficulty.

On a creative note, if you like Daemonic vehicles then a Tyrannocyte also makes a fine basis for a conversion. And if that's how you go, then bulking one up into a Kharybdis saves a lot of tinkering with heavy chunks of resin.

Dreadclaws are interesting but Kharybdis Assault Claw is a completely different vehicle. It's excellent as a vehicle killer, and this fact is often overlooked.

The KAC has 16 wounds compared to 10 on the Dreadclaw and both units move 15 inches. That mobility is not diminished by taking wounds.

Both units have abilities that make them beasts. For each model they kill in a turn, the unit gets to regenerate wounds on a 5+ for each model killed. It's explosion does D3 mortal wounds and D6 against psykers.

Unlike the Dreadclaw, the KAC has a special attack it gets on the charge against vehicles / monsters / titanic units. This attack is S 16 & does 2D6 damage at -5 AP. On subsequent turns, it does 8 S9 AP -2 2 D attacks. You get this plus the added transport capacity for about half the cost of a second Dreadclaw, which I think is worth it.

A lot of people look at the KAC as a delivery system for Khorne Berzerkers, but dropping assault units is not the optimal way to play it. I used it this way for a while, but opponents quickly learned how to counter by strategically placing units so the KAC can never land near anything interesting.

What I do instead is drop 2 squads of Noise Marines, a Sorcerer and an Exalted Champion. The Sorcerer casts Warptime on the KAC, allowing it to get into position to charge things like Wraithknights, Land Raiders, and Carniflexes. The Noise Marines proceed to mow down a couple squads with sonic weapons while rerolling all failed wounds because of the EC. The 24 inch range of the sonic blasters can be huge depending on where you put them, I always try to land in the center of the board to cover as much space as possible.

The NM drop is a brutal alpha strike where dying units have a lot of synergy. Between the NM's MotA and the KAC's explosion, you can do a lot of damage to an opponent. It gets to the point where you are almost waiting for your NMs to die so they can score a warlord kill or put some wounds on a bigger threat. The other thing about the KAC is it becomes a charge magnet, opponents like to keep it in combat to keep it from eating more vehicles. On the times it does explode, it is usually completely surrounded by multiple units.

What's funny is you make a pretty good case why the KAC is a better option than a heldrake to fulfill a similar purpose plus transport. I think the thing that puts people off (besides the price, both real and in game) is its rule that affects allied units nearby in combat. It shouldn't though.

Yeah, as metagames' screening protocols respond to Warptimed Berzerkers and Endless Cacophonies of Plasma, Kharybdis becomes a whole new threat. Auto hitting with its aura attack which can't be denied by 1", plus the ability to eat its way back to recovery, are remarkable and very difficult to deal with.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, as metagames' screening protocols respond to Warptimed Berzerkers and Endless Cacophonies of Plasma, Kharybdis becomes a whole new threat. Auto hitting with its aura attack which can't be denied by 1", plus the ability to eat its way back to recovery, are remarkable and very difficult to deal with.

Hah, say that last first sentence to the next person you see. We are so weird. Good for us.

I think I asked this before but not sure an answer ever really came out of it...

What do people think of the Hellwright / Hellwright+Dark Abeyance?

They're pretty pricey, like pretty much daemon prince territory, are they worth it?

They give +1 attacks to hellforged vehicles, which is pretty not great as you're only likely to have maybe 1 or 2 even in a mech heavy list, and even then they aren't likely to be charging into combat that much unless you go for dual-CCW contemptors. Even then, a Lord or Prince letting you reroll hits would probably be about as useful as one extra attack.

The healing is ok, but you can get that for cheaper from a warpsmith.

So it's just it's stats and wargear, vs a Lord or a Prince.

Basically I'm asking because if the hellwright isn't that great, I might convert a Hellwright-Prince.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I use 2x Tzeentch Obliterators and 1x Slaanesh Obliterator squad.

Here's, roughly, my list.

Alpha Legion Spearhead:
Daemon Prince
Claws/Wings/Intoxicating Elixir – “I am Alpharius” Warlord Trait

Sorcerer:
Jump Pack/Staff/Chainsword

2x Tzeentch Oblit
1x Slaanesh Oblit

Chaos Battalion:

Changeling
2x Disc Herald w/ Staff
6 Exalted Flamers

5x 1 Blue 9 Brim
1x 1 blue 21 Brim

Supreme command:
5x Malefic Lord

Taking it to a RTT tomorrow, I'll report back on how they do.

Update: took second, only just barely missing first by 3 points.

Obliterators are absolutely incredible. Had one squad get one shot by jaws of the world wolf and cried.

All in all I'm impressed with Alpha Legion.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I use 2x Tzeentch Obliterators and 1x Slaanesh Obliterator squad.

Here's, roughly, my list.

Alpha Legion Spearhead:
Daemon Prince
Claws/Wings/Intoxicating Elixir – “I am Alpharius” Warlord Trait

Sorcerer:
Jump Pack/Staff/Chainsword

2x Tzeentch Oblit
1x Slaanesh Oblit

Chaos Battalion:

Changeling
2x Disc Herald w/ Staff
6 Exalted Flamers

5x 1 Blue 9 Brim
1x 1 blue 21 Brim

Supreme command:
5x Malefic Lord

Taking it to a RTT tomorrow, I'll report back on how they do.

Update: took second, only just barely missing first by 3 points.

Obliterators are absolutely incredible. Had one squad get one shot by jaws of the world wolf and cried.

All in all I'm impressed with Alpha Legion.

Congrats!

Looks interesting... I'm assuming you used the 2x TzOblits as a walking fire base near the changeling?

Then you deepstruck the Slaanesh Oblits, so that you can use that "shoot twice Slaanesh CP"???

@Cephalobeard, what powers did you give your Prince and Sorcerer? Did you have many instances of a really helpful power failing on you?

Prince often had Warp Time. Sorcerer was Prescience and Death Hex or the Slaanesh 5+ FNP.

I failed Prescience oddly often, was annoying.

Also yes, exactly that Whembly.

I think moving forward I'm at least going to drop the exalted Flamers for 2x 10 Berzerkers, and some other things.

How reliable are people find pyschic powers to be in general? How often do they get denied and how many powers to do you tend to use? So far the only time I have used them.in game has been diabolic strength on a slaanesh dp and I have yet to not get it off. (Only played 3 games in 8th so far though.)

@cephalobeard: congratulations. You did Chaos proud! How do you think the NL trait (if your army was build around it) would have done based on the lists you were up against/saw?

Arachnofiend wrote:
Uh, the Exalted Champion's re-roll aura only works in the Fight phase. It won't affect your sonic weapons outside of the case of your Noise Marines dying in combat and firing their blasters. I think you might owe your opponents an apology.

Thank you for pointing that out. Honestly, I am still working on my 8th edition lists, and the EC is a new recruit. He's not known for his honesty and deliberately makes up new rules for himself. Often, I am on the hook for the deception.

: )

Don't miss the greater point. A KAC with shooty occupants is superior to one with choppy occupants. If you drop it in the middle of the table, the 24 inch radius on sonic weapons covers a most of your opponent's deployment zone. Think about that compared to having to make 9 inch charges with multiple units. Once opponents figure out the Berzerker trick, all you are going to be charging is Conscripts / Scouts / Hormagaunts / Guardians / Grots. A massed firing point is going to be a huge distraction, leaving you free to bring up a couple Rhinos filled with Berzerkers for a second turn charge.

Also, it's a lot easier casting Warptime on the KAC than trying to come up with enough Sorcerers to cover multiple units. With Warptime, the KAC can reliably charge anything in 20 inches and early game that's just about anything on the table. It's on a large aerial base and, with proper positioning, it's going to tie up multiple units. In one game, I used it to charge 3 Razorbacks one turn, which completely ruined my opponent's game plan. As long as you watch out for force / power weapons, the KAC can sit on a big chunk of your opponent's army as long as it wants.

Finally, about the Melta Cutters (the weapon you don't get with the Dreadclaw): the rules read as follows: "Normal attacks may not be made using this profile, instead if the Kharybdis successfully charges a model with the VEHICLE, MONSTER or TITANIC keywords, the controlling player may choose to forfeit all of it's standard attacks to make a single attack with this profile that hits it's target on a 2+."

Notice the rules do not say the attacks need to be directed towards the vehicle. RAW you have the best Character killer in the game, so long as it's within 8 inches of a vehicle. Next time you play against Guilliman and he's standing behind a Rhino, multicharge both for a quick warlord kill with a S 16 weapon that hits on a 2+ doing 2D6 wounds.

So yeah, world of difference between the KAC and a Dreadclaw. Not sure there's a reason to ever take a Dreadclaw.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
Uh, the Exalted Champion's re-roll aura only works in the Fight phase. It won't affect your sonic weapons outside of the case of your Noise Marines dying in combat and firing their blasters. I think you might owe your opponents an apology.

Thank you for pointing that out. Honestly, I am still working on my 8th edition lists, and the EC is a new recruit. He's not known for his honesty and deliberately makes up new rules for himself. Often, I am on the hook for the deception.

: )

Don't miss the greater point. A KAC with shooty occupants is superior to one with choppy occupants. If you drop it in the middle of the table, the 24 inch radius on sonic weapons covers a most of your opponent's deployment zone. Think about that compared to having to make 9 inch charges with multiple units. Once opponents figure out the Berzerker trick, all you are going to be charging is Conscripts / Scouts / Hormagaunts / Guardians / Grots. A massed firing point is going to be a huge distraction, leaving you free to bring up a couple Rhinos filled with Berzerkers for a second turn charge.

Also, it's a lot easier casting Warptime on the KAC than trying to come up with enough Sorcerers to cover multiple units. With Warptime, the KAC can reliably charge anything in 20 inches and early game that's just about anything on the table. It's on a large aerial base and, with proper positioning, it's going to tie up multiple units. In one game, I used it to charge 3 Razorbacks one turn, which completely ruined my opponent's game plan. As long as you watch out for force / power weapons, the KAC can sit on a big chunk of your opponent's army as long as it wants.

Finally, about the Melta Cutters (the weapon you don't get with the Dreadclaw): the rules read as follows: "Normal attacks may not be made using this profile, instead if the Kharybdis successfully charges a model with the VEHICLE, MONSTER or TITANIC keywords, the controlling player may choose to forfeit all of it's standard attacks to make a single attack with this profile that hits it's target on a 2+."

Notice the rules do not say the attacks need to be directed towards the vehicle. RAW you have the best Character killer in the game, so long as it's within 8 inches of a vehicle. Next time you play against Guilliman and he's standing behind a Rhino, multicharge both for a quick warlord kill with a S 16 weapon that hits on a 2+ doing 2D6 wounds.

So yeah, world of difference between the KAC and a Dreadclaw. Not sure there's a reason to ever take a Dreadclaw.

...Well, that's positively devious. Between that and the EC shenanigans, maybe you should go alpha legion instead!

Pretty sure that's not how the melts cutters are meant to work, but at a glance at the rules it does seem to be raw. Probably not a common enough vehicle to ever get a FAQ either.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
How reliable are people find pyschic powers to be in general? How often do they get denied and how many powers to do you tend to use? So far the only time I have used them.in game has been diabolic strength on a slaanesh dp and I have yet to not get it off. (Only played 3 games in 8th so far though.)

It's kinda a bit like 7th I'm finding. If the opponent goes hard with powers and you don't have enough deny juice then it's gonna be an issue. Mass smite is a strong army from what I have seen and now experienced.

Luckily chaos are in a great position defensively with the khorne strats etc in the book and the very very cheap chuck away units like brim horrors and malefic lords.

With that in mind from a competitive standpoint you are selling your self short without some defense. You can get 30 brims and a couple of male lords for 150pts as there own batallion give you 5 deny rolls 3 command points some useful smite and some annoying troops with a 4++ to score objs and also bubble wrap units so they can't be smited.

 lindsay40k wrote:

On a creative note, if you like Daemonic vehicles then a Tyrannocyte also makes a fine basis for a conversion. And if that's how you go, then bulking one up into a Kharybdis saves a lot of tinkering with heavy chunks of resin.

The owner of our local shop happens to have a Kharybdis in one of his display cases for his World Eaters army and being a Tyranid player I can assure you that a Tyrannocyte is way too small to represent that behemoth of a drop pod even with add-ons to make it look bulkier. The footprint and bulk of the Kharybdis while landed is closer to that of a Necron Obelisk without its flight stem.

With regard to Summoning: I've started a thread where we can vote on what's worth bringing along to summon and what's best left on the shelf.

 lindsay40k wrote:
With regard to Summoning: I've started a thread where we can vote on what's worth bringing along to summon and what's best left on the shelf.

I'm interested in this, not necessarily just for summoning but also as a sideline daemon force. I started 40k with tyranids because I liked the big monsters, and then got bored and went onto eldar because I wanted some nice vehicles to paint too. Then I went onto orks because of conversions.

I have since realised that chaos actually have the ability to do all 3 lol.

 techsoldaten wrote:
So yeah, world of difference between the KAC and a Dreadclaw. Not sure there's a reason to ever take a Dreadclaw.

I have said this atleast one time before either in here or in other forum, but I say this again:
KAC is nearly broken with the current stats, a mere +100 pts in price gives you much stronger melee and shooting and +6 wounds and higher toughness compared to dreadclaw. Or the other alternative is that the dreadclaw is overpriced, but KAC for mere 300 pts shoots more dakka than Land Raider and is almost as durable with only it's 3+ save making it to have worse durability than Land Raider, and then it also has double the transport capacity of Land Raider.
I would say KAC is nearly broken with current price, or if not broken atleast the dreadclaw is stupid investment compared to KAC. Which is sad as I happen to own a dreadclaw, love the model but it hasn't been that good on tabletop.

Havent used either the dreadclaw or the KAC myself yet, but after looking at the rules and seeing what people have said here, I think it may be a bit of both. The dreadclaw seems a little bit expensive for what it does and the KAC is almost certainly undercost. As mentioned before though, I'm not sure if they are popular enough models to get an FAQ. Then again, that might change now just because the KAC is so good this edition.

KAC might be a bit less overcosted if it loses its ability to carry multiple Squads. Right now it has an additional benefit of being a fantastic way to balance MSU with trying to finish deployment first.

Edit: I am entirely down with the challenge to make a suitably scaled one out of a T-cyte

hmmm I saw this in a battle report and it was raised in its comments.

Does Magnus have a 4++ invul save or a 3++ invul save? I know he gets a rerolls on 1s, but my impression was that he only has a 4++ invul save.

Tzeenth daemons get a special ability that raises their invul save by 1. But I am not sure this applies to Magnus. This is similar to how our CSM DPs don't get that special +1 to invul save even if they are tzeenth and they also don't get DR even if they are nurgle.

Unless this was FAQed and I didn't know about it. So is my understanding correct?

Because Magnus with a 3++ invul save and can reroll 1s for invul is ridiculous. That means only 2s can get through his save. That or you smite him to death with mortal wounds...


PS: Oh wait, he got a 3++ because he cast weaver of fates ... (Still stupidly powerful). I personally feel that regardless of faction, a 3++ invul save shouldn't be allowed. (Gulliman included).

So now that we know generally what Mortarion stats look like with exception for his Silence,Lantern and bombs - i must admit - i'm not impressed at all.

Magnus /Guilliman look like better stuff . Why ?
Funny ... isn't it - but he is just not that RESILENT at all.
Given that even lord of contagion beat him in aspect of armor 2+/4++ and FNP instead of 3+/4++/FNP. Either he got some other hax stuff like better FNP on 4+ or I can tell you that he aint even that hard to remove , tbh Magnus with weaver of fates on him may beat this guy in term of resilence.

Which is straightforward joke.

I easily expected him to have 2+ base save and 8T as he is supposed to be most tanky guy ever.

I will wait with my judgement until i see everything. But atm he looks like more damage oriented primarch rather than defense. Which is really unfluffy and just doesn't fit.

I would gladly give up some of offensive stuff to get that 2+ and 8T. Right now i can easily see this guy being deleted in 1 turn.

example where he "doesn't shine" : intercessors wound him on 5+ and force his invu save lol ... like WTF.

Was expecting you need some big guns to put him down, but seems few farts from bolters will do the job ...
And I don't want him to be broken op. If something needs to be sacrificed then take down his Strenght to 7 and raise toughness - at least bolters/slugas wont smash him on 5+.

I think have to see his full rules first ah. We don't know what those artifacts and silence do. You just need one or two OP artifact and he will look very different.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think have to see his full rules first ah. We don't know what those artifacts and silence do. You just need one or two OP artifact and he will look very different.

I doubt it will help ... unless some of his stuff gives some random defensive buffs like -1 to hit etc - then expect him being taken down in one turn by dedicated gunline who will go first.

Because from what we have seen he ain't tanky at all.

Magnus even if aint going first will be protected by changeling , guilliman with less than 10 wounds cannot be targeted and even if he does 2+/3++ just laughs at 3+/4++.

Seems legendary super tanky primarch is softie with same armor like primaris captain in gravis armor. Oh wait that captain can take sanctic halo for 3++ or armor of indomitus...

I just hope i will be proved wrong, my entire hype just died when i saw those underwheling stats :(.

Was about to preorder him , but ... I need to take look on his full stats first :(((.

Anyway, about his movement. That's not really a big issue. He already moves 12 inches, as fast as a DP. Plus, I assume those wings he has aren't for show only, so he will have the fly keyword. So, he will effectively be like a flying DP in terms of movement.

He is a CSM, so he can be boosted by warptime. Warptime him 12 inches up after he has moved his normal 12 inches means he is 24 inches up the board already. He should be in range then to charge something juicy. I think have to see his full rules to determine just how squishy he is. Maybe there is some rule we are missing here. I mean, if his DR is a 4+ DR with a rerollable 1, then all of a sudden he will look a lot more tanky.