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If it's an Axe, then you're looking at 8/27ths of a wound, or a little better than the Letters.

But, bear in mind, you get 2.43 Letters for each Zerker if they have an Axe (2.29 if you go swords only).

 JNAProductions wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters

Eh... It's doubled, but is that twice as good?

If the Zerkers have Chainswords, it's two S5 AP0 swings as compared to one S4 AP-3 swing. If you're up against, say, Terminators, that's an average of 4/27ths of a wound from the Zerkers, as compared to 2/9ths or 6/27ths of a wound from the Letters.

Except that's wrong. The sergeant gets 2 extra S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks and the regular zerkers get 2 extra S6 AP-1 attacks. So the regular zerkers get 8/27th extra and the sergeant gets 30/27th more wounds.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters

Eh... It's doubled, but is that twice as good?

If the Zerkers have Chainswords, it's two S5 AP0 swings as compared to one S4 AP-3 swing. If you're up against, say, Terminators, that's an average of 4/27ths of a wound from the Zerkers, as compared to 2/9ths or 6/27ths of a wound from the Letters.

Except that's wrong. The sergeant gets 2 extra S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks and the regular zerkers get 2 extra S6 AP-1 attacks. So the regular zerkers get 8/27th extra and the sergeant gets 30/27th more wounds.

Okay, but that's about 180 points right there, assuming a 10 man squad, for 102/27ths wounds (or about 3.78).

For the same 180 points, you get 25 Letters (which makes them hit on 2s) for 25 extra S4 AP-3 attacks hitting on 2s, for just under 7 extra wounds.

On top of that, versus T3 6+ chaff units, the letters get 12/27th extra wounds whilst zerkers get 30/27th extra wounds each. That's over the 2.29 thresh hold.

 mrhappyface wrote:
On top of that, versus T3 6+ chaff units, the letters get 12/27th extra wounds whilst zerkers get 30/27th extra wounds each. That's over the 2.29 thresh hold.

Right... But most T3 models have a 5+. T4 6+ is a valid unit (Ork Boyz), but the only T3 6+ unit I can think of is Scarabs. And if you're scared of Scarabs... Well.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Okay, but that's about 180 points right there, assuming a 10 man squad, for 102/27ths wounds (or about 3.78).

For the same 180 points, you get 25 Letters (which makes them hit on 2s) for 25 extra S4 AP-3 attacks hitting on 2s, for just under 7 extra wounds.

Don't forget as well, because Zerkers are heretic Astartes, they also have access to being warptime, prescience, VotLW. It's not hard to get a unit of 20 Zerkers wherever you need them, hitting on 2s (with extra hits against Imperial), wounding on 2s and attacking a 3rd time if need be. As well as access to HQs that can give them re-rolling to hit and wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
On top of that, versus T3 6+ chaff units, the letters get 12/27th extra wounds whilst zerkers get 30/27th extra wounds each. That's over the 2.29 thresh hold.

Right... But most T3 models have a 5+. T4 6+ is a valid unit (Ork Boyz), but the only T3 6+ unit I can think of is Scarabs. And if you're scared of Scarabs... Well.

The unit that immediately came to my mind was cultists. Still, even with a 5+ Zerkers win out.

Yeah this was kind of what I was thinking. Naturally half the army has to be boots on ground - which also alpha lets accommodate. I am not sure about rerolling wounds (have to commit an exalted champion*) but it is an easy drop to put VOTLW on the zerkers with skarbrand if needed.

Also the letters degrade (in the sense that when they drop below 20 they will go to 3+). I doubt most armies are running 6x 30 letters as their primary damage out - so when some drop it'll be trouble, zerkers toughness is higher, better save, etc. I know alpha strike is the hype but game may go to turn 2.

Just saying the strengths I see of running this type of line-up to enhance the alpha zerkers in chaos soup to clear chaffe

orkswubwub wrote:
Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters

I'm telling you from experience: Those Berzerkers are going to easily outpace Skarbrand. Regardless, they don't really need a +1 Attack boost and would benefit much more from a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champ nearby, who allow them to delete pretty much any unit you put them against. Berzerkers shouldn't be your chaff clearer anyways; they easily knock over tanks and other bigger targets and that is what they should be pushed against.

My biggest problem with Alpha Legion Berzerkers vs one 30 man Bloodletter Bomb is that you need first turn to make sure your Berzerkers don't get removed, otherwise you might as well have rolled them up in Rhinos. Meanwhile the Bomb just needs one little empty space of board and doesn't even need to come in first turn. You want to throw Skarbrand into this which is kind of a huge point sink just to boost your already murderous Berzerkers. Meanwhile he gives rerolls to your Khorne Daemons along with his Warlord trait of rerolling 1s if you want, on top of his natural aura.

What you're proposing looks cool but a savvy opponent who is already prepared for Nids doing assault shenanigans will be able to survive the alpha strike and counter attack you, either by falling back the screening units (they are outside the Deep Struck Skarbrand's aura) and shooting, or beta striking. And suddenly your huge investment (over 25% of your army) is in mortal danger.

The bomb costs more CP but less points, leaving you open to create even more powerful threats, like Berzerkers in boxes. Berzerkers may be better at clearing away chaff than Bloodletters, but your point investment for doing so would make your opponent smile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, but that's about 180 points right there, assuming a 10 man squad, for 102/27ths wounds (or about 3.78).

For the same 180 points, you get 25 Letters (which makes them hit on 2s) for 25 extra S4 AP-3 attacks hitting on 2s, for just under 7 extra wounds.

Don't forget as well, because Zerkers are heretic Astartes, they also have access to being warptime, prescience, VotLW. It's not hard to get a unit of 20 Zerkers wherever you need them, hitting on 2s (with extra hits against Imperial), wounding on 2s and attacking a 3rd time if need be. As well as access to HQs that can give them re-rolling to hit and wound.

That is an enormous amount of points, spells, and CP invested into one unit. Yes it will clear all the chaff away from your opponents deployment zone as if it never even existed, but all that offensive power isn't going to protect them against the incoming retaliation. The Bloodletters are cheaper both in points and CP, cover a wider area (30 vs 20), and are still very much too big of a threat to ignore. They can clear away chaff just fine and open the way for your Berzerkers inside Rhinos or Drop Pods.

There's just no viable reason to put 20 Berzerkers down in the kill zone, have them kill 1/4th their points in chaff, and then get blown off the board. Let the Bloodletters get blown off the board instead and take the extra points to buy a Khorne damned Rhino!

I am coming over to the bloodletter side - unfortunately though it seems you likely have to run them with the 3d6 banner though to do this which does make it a 2 CP point sink for about a 140(ish) point unit

orkswubwub wrote:
I am coming over to the bloodletter side - unfortunately though it seems you likely have to run them with the 3d6 banner though to do this which does make it a 2 CP point sink for about a 140(ish) point unit

I'd go 30 man unit with the banner, so 3CP. You should have at least two battalions if you want to do something like this. I'm fitting a third into my list.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Whoa, I’m looking at Index IA AM and it’s FAQ, and Renegades & Heretics get Mutant Conscripts with a 33% chance of T4 - and a non-deborked Commissar

Only reasons I can see to bother with Cultists:

- you need them or some HQs to have LEGION trait (don’t care, I main Word Bearers)
- you’re Iron Warriors or Black Legion exploiting a Fearless bubble (ditto)
- you want to make use of Tide of Traitors to outflank, recycle, and deny unit kill (ah, now this is good)
- you want to do something creative with other Stratagems (...meh)
- you want to Warptime a DG Cultist blob, carrying four Flamers, with enhanced Advance rolls, and force the enemy to ignore the threat or turn them into Poxwalkers (this is really good)

Please note the enforcer lacks the character keyword though so he is super easy to remove. That really changes the argument.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Whoa, I’m looking at Index IA AM and it’s FAQ, and Renegades & Heretics get Mutant Conscripts with a 33% chance of T4 - and a non-deborked Commissar

Only reasons I can see to bother with Cultists:

- you need them or some HQs to have LEGION trait (don’t care, I main Word Bearers)
- you’re Iron Warriors or Black Legion exploiting a Fearless bubble (ditto)
- you want to make use of Tide of Traitors to outflank, recycle, and deny unit kill (ah, now this is good)
- you want to do something creative with other Stratagems (...meh)
- you want to Warptime a DG Cultist blob, carrying four Flamers, with enhanced Advance rolls, and force the enemy to ignore the threat or turn them into Poxwalkers (this is really good)

Please note the enforcer lacks the character keyword though so he is super easy to remove. That really changes the argument.

Did that not get FAQ'd?

It did - https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_astra_militarum.pdf

Page 89 – Renegade Enforcer, KeywordsAdd ‘Character’.

So I am fully expecting the denizens ability to be FAQed, I think we can agree no surprise there.

Is there still the possibility of using Warp Surge on Magnus (say opponent gets T1 shooting)?

orkswubwub wrote:
So I am fully expecting the denizens ability to be FAQed, I think we can agree no surprise there.

Is there still the possibility of using Warp Surge on Magnus (say opponent gets T1 shooting)?

wut? can't you already warp surge him?

 andysonic1 wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
So I am fully expecting the denizens ability to be FAQed, I think we can agree no surprise there.

Is there still the possibility of using Warp Surge on Magnus (say opponent gets T1 shooting)?

wut? can't you already warp surge him?

You can use a psychic power to give him +1invul but that won't save you versus turn 1 alpha strike.

Any brainstorming ideas on how to beat a list running 10 PBC all with spwers (5x and 5x) with chaos daemon prince for rerolls (probably also with DG warlord trait to reroll wounds).

I would assume alpha legion would be decent bringing the PBC from a 4+ to a 5+ but eventually the crawlers will close and with 2 spewers auto hitting and rerolling wounds will be difficult on objective points. Even trying to get these units into melee with a charge - the chargers will eat spewer damage and not many units can one shot a PBC (which will fall back leaving you open to get spewered by the other PBC).

orkswubwub wrote:
Any brainstorming ideas on how to beat a list running 10 PBC all with spwers (5x and 5x) with chaos daemon prince for rerolls (probably also with DG warlord trait to reroll wounds).

I would assume alpha legion would be decent bringing the PBC from a 4+ to a 5+ but eventually the crawlers will close and with 2 spewers auto hitting and rerolling wounds will be difficult on objective points. Even trying to get these units into melee with a charge - the chargers will eat spewer damage and not many units can one shot a PBC (which will fall back leaving you open to get spewered by the other PBC).

Charge them from 9" away (they won't be able to shoot you with their spewers), pile into as many as you can (guessing they will be huddled together to get the re-roll), trying your best to wrap around and prevent them from leaving combat, and laugh as they keep backing up and you keep moving to a safe distance and charging. Multiple units of Zerkers with icon of wrath should make sure you tie up the crawlers with at least one unit a turn.

So. We now have three Codices. Each with Warlord Traits, Relics, and Tactical Objectives that are unlocked by the Codex your Warlord is from.

If one has a DG, a CSM, and a Daemon Detachment, what’s the best bet?

Depends. As much as I like the DG traits, their Tactical Objectives are poor. For my DG IW List, I'll bring a Daemon Prince, the +1 wound, 6+ fnp, relic armor that heals a wound, and Delightful Agonies power all stacked up. Their Tac Obj are all doable for the most part.

When I play a mono Death Guard list, I'll pick a Lord of Contagion or someone and just hide him in Deepstrike, or miss out on a good trait and pick Typhus who is usually well protected in his pox blob. I use the DG daemon prince as a brawler so I rather not offer up a warlord kill for him as easily since he is already a big target.

Daemons offers some interesting options. The - 1 to hit is good for the Prince, and their Tac Obj aren't terrible.

All depends what you're trying to gain and what you're gonna lose.

I'm quite interested to see what people start coming up with with Daemons in the mix now. I love daemons, I really do, I mained them in 5th for quite a long time (Fatecrusher FTW!).

I'm thinking a detachments with Gnarlmaws will be standard for DG lists now, they're so good, and maybe a GUO, PB's, and more. I built a list that utilized alpha-zerkers, now I'm thinking I might just take a Daemons detachment for a boatload of letters.

 lindsay40k wrote:
So. We now have three Codices. Each with Warlord Traits, Relics, and Tactical Objectives that are unlocked by the Codex your Warlord is from.

If one has a DG, a CSM, and a Daemon Detachment, what’s the best bet?

Think it will either be CSM and Daemons or DG and Daemons. Think trying to go DG plus CSM plus Daemons runs the danger of spreading yourself too thin.

I really want to get a Khorne daemon contingent to run with my Lord of Skulls and Decimator now for those sweet Daemon Engine buffs. Add a Battalion with a Sorcerer and Jugger Lord with cultists for MAXIMUM BUFF ROBOTS.

Put the crown relic on a Herald, take a bunch of bloodcrushers and daemon buffers, then run them next to Khorne Decimators and daemon steed Lords for fast sturdy assaulters.

For the gnarlmaw - since its a fortification, it takes a detachment unless you summon it in?

 Badablack wrote:
I really want to get a Khorne daemon contingent to run with my Lord of Skulls and Decimator now for those sweet Daemon Engine buffs. Add a Battalion with a Sorcerer and Jugger Lord with cultists for MAXIMUM BUFF ROBOTS.

Put the crown relic on a Herald, take a bunch of bloodcrushers and daemon buffers, then run them next to Khorne Decimators and daemon steed Lords for fast sturdy assaulters.

One unit of 3 Crushers is only 8PL, so you can deep strike that in for 1CP, plus Banner of Blood them for 1CP so they can 3D6 charge. Drop in Skulltaker behind them so they get +1 to their Hit rolls. 20 Bloodletters are slightly cheaper, however you'll get all your Bloodcrusher attacks whereas you'll only get a certain amount of the Bloodletters.

I'm starting to really like bloodcrushers as a second-wave assault shock or for hitting things that are out of position, they may not be as great for tournaments where it's turn1 or bust, but even there the extra toughness could be pretty fantastic considering they dole out almost the same # of attacks point for point as bloodletters

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
I really want to get a Khorne daemon contingent to run with my Lord of Skulls and Decimator now for those sweet Daemon Engine buffs. Add a Battalion with a Sorcerer and Jugger Lord with cultists for MAXIMUM BUFF ROBOTS.

Put the crown relic on a Herald, take a bunch of bloodcrushers and daemon buffers, then run them next to Khorne Decimators and daemon steed Lords for fast sturdy assaulters.

One unit of 3 Crushers is only 8PL, so you can deep strike that in for 1CP, plus Banner of Blood them for 1CP so they can 3D6 charge. Drop in Skulltaker behind them so they get +1 to their Hit rolls. 20 Bloodletters are slightly cheaper, however you'll get all your Bloodcrusher attacks whereas you'll only get a certain amount of the Bloodletters.

This is sweet on paper, but to unlock that Locus you need three Bloodcrusher units.

Faction purity is fine in principle, but in practice, the low number of deities with battlefield role diversity means large quantities of the same unit.

If they patched in a generic Elite and Troops unit, then it’d be fine. And the opportunity on at least one was there, with that mutalith thingy, but apparently that’s a Thousand Son, so no dice there.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
I really want to get a Khorne daemon contingent to run with my Lord of Skulls and Decimator now for those sweet Daemon Engine buffs. Add a Battalion with a Sorcerer and Jugger Lord with cultists for MAXIMUM BUFF ROBOTS.

Put the crown relic on a Herald, take a bunch of bloodcrushers and daemon buffers, then run them next to Khorne Decimators and daemon steed Lords for fast sturdy assaulters.

One unit of 3 Crushers is only 8PL, so you can deep strike that in for 1CP, plus Banner of Blood them for 1CP so they can 3D6 charge. Drop in Skulltaker behind them so they get +1 to their Hit rolls. 20 Bloodletters are slightly cheaper, however you'll get all your Bloodcrusher attacks whereas you'll only get a certain amount of the Bloodletters.

This is sweet on paper, but to unlock that Locus you need three Bloodcrusher units

Wut? You just need a Patrol Detachment: one Herald / Skulltaker, One Bloodletter bomb, One Bloodcrusher unit. Done, locus unlocked.

Whats the best way of buffing up Possessed? I get Nurgle is the way to go but I can't seem to think of a way that doesn't burn all the CPs up.

I'm tempted to try the following @ 2K.

Nurgle Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
9 Berzerkers in Rhinos
10 Berzerkers in Rhinos
20 Nurgle Possessed
3x10 Cultists

HoK
30 Bloodletters

HoN
HoN
3x3 Nuglings

Alpha Legion Possessed can start 9" away, then Deep Strike the Nurgle Heralds & Sorcerer in with them, hit them with a combination of Shriveling Pox/Virulent Blessing/Miasma of Pestilence & then Prescience/Death Hex off the Sorcerer.

Bloodletter bombs hits turn 1 too. Berzerkers with the DA come in turn 2 to mop up. Cultists and Nurglings just throw shapes on objectives.

Thoughts?

Not sure, I think a double layer screen or a a few speed bump units would mess up your day. Scouts would do even more damage to your plan.

Wouldn't I just be able to put the Nurglings down first to create a small safe DS zone since they are deployed?

Hmm... Seems like it might benefit from 2 HOT, some Brims & 30 Pinks more than a Bloodletter bomb.