All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!

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**blackmage**

in a subpar kind of tournament of course Magnus can be a superstar at 1750 it could perform better than 2000, less heavy weapons to worry about.

**Nature's Minister**

Speaking of culexus assassins, if you infernal gateway a target and the culexus is within 3 inches, does it take the splash damage

Edit: just realized the wording is targeted or affected, so no

**small_gods**

Nature's Minister wrote:
Speaking of culexus assassins, if you infernal gateway a target and the culexus is within 3 inches, does it take the splash damage

Edit: just realized the wording is targeted or affected, so no

I have been thinking about culexus assassins since running into one in a tournament last year (which ended up being the only game I lost in 5 and cost me 1st place). Since then I've asked my friend to bring his everytime we play and come up with 2 ways of getting rid of him.

1. Tar pit him (I use nurglings for this he really stuggles to get through them) Then I play around his aura.

2. Massed fire from SOTs with prescience and VotLW or lots of horrors if I'm using them.

I find rubrics with flamers so underwhelming with everything else that I don't use them. And as others have said I think flamers are just better if you want some warpflame in your list

**demontalons**

Rubric flamers can work but they need a lot of support and you gotta really know your army.

They’re assault weapons so you should always be running giving you 1-6 inches more range, they need to be in a rhino, again so they can pop out with 3 extra range, and you can warptime them, so getting them where they need to be isn’t really the issue.

They can’t be the sole heavy hitter in your army but 9 of them in a rhino with a lot of tzaangors around to stop from being surrounded the turn you have to wait makes for a very real and dangerous distraction carnifex.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Bolter Discipline Rule...

Seems too good to be true, and feels like were going to be excluded from the rule should it be implemented.

What do you guys think?

**topaxygouroun i**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Bolter Discipline Rule...

Seems too good to be true, and feels like were going to be excluded from the rule should it be implemented.

What do you guys think?

Why would you think that? It's a marginally benefit for TS, since rubrics are mostly sub par even with the rule, SoT would get their double tap anyways with deepstriking, and we don't have access to bikers. And why would you think we would get excluded from a blanket astartes rule?

It's not going to change much. Scarabs now might have one more reason to start the game on the table rather than getting deep strike in, but that's about it. Small 5-strong units of rubrics in cover holding backfield objectives might look good on paper, but it's 96 points, no thanks.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Bolter Discipline Rule...

Seems too good to be true, and feels like were going to be excluded from the rule should it be implemented.

What do you guys think?

Why would you think that? It's a marginally benefit for TS, since rubrics are mostly sub par even with the rule, SoT would get their double tap anyways with deepstriking, and we don't have access to bikers. And why would you think we would get excluded from a blanket astartes rule?

I agree on the Rubricae, they dont gain a whole lot from this other then becoming very good mid field objective holders.

SOT on the other hand gain a lot. Yes they could rapid fire when they DS before, but your options were limited. Mostly by your opponent choosing what your options were. Now we can land 9" away from our cloest enemy and shoot up to 15" behind that unit with rapid fire intensity, where as before we only had 3" behind them. It's a hell of a difference.

**small_gods**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Bolter Discipline Rule...

Seems too good to be true, and feels like were going to be excluded from the rule should it be implemented.

What do you guys think?

Why would you think that? It's a marginally benefit for TS, since rubrics are mostly sub par even with the rule, SoT would get their double tap anyways with deepstriking, and we don't have access to bikers. And why would you think we would get excluded from a blanket astartes rule?

I agree on the Rubricae, they dont gain a whole lot from this other then becoming very good mid field objective holders.

SOT on the other hand gain a lot. Yes they could rapid fire when they DS before, but your options were limited. Mostly by your opponent choosing what your options were. Now we can land 9" away from our cloest enemy and shoot up to 15" behind that unit with rapid fire intensity, where as before we only had 3" behind them. It's a hell of a difference.

Not to mention that it gives you greater flexibility when deepstriking. Playing spacemarines, you don't have to get auspex scanned. Key objective 20" from unit you want to hit, no problems. Nice cover available in centre of board, that's my SOTs new home.

**D6Damager**

Nature's Minister wrote:

I find rubrics with flamers so underwhelming with everything else that I don't use them. And as others have said I think flamers are just better if you want some warpflame in your list

Except Flamers are not Obsec, or psykers, nor can you use Veterans of the Long War on them like Rubrics.

**small_gods**

D6Damager wrote:
Nature's Minister wrote:

I find rubrics with flamers so underwhelming with everything else that I don't use them. And as others have said I think flamers are just better if you want some warpflame in your list

Except Flamers are not Obsec, or psykers, nor can you use Veterans of the Long War on them like Rubrics.

I'd swap all that for a 2 wound model, with fly 12", 12" flamers that can deepsrtike and shoot without warptime. You can buff them to Str 5 with +1 to wound with flickering flames from a herald and if you want to keep them alive can spend cp to make them a 3++.

**Azuza001**

It depends on what your doing honestly. Rubrics with warp flamers are what you do when your looking to boost through strats and want the troop choice. Flamers are what you do when your looking to boost through spells and vortex beasts. Both can be effective if used correctly, but flamers are honestly easier to use and cheaper for what they do.

**topaxygouroun i**

Flickering flames = veterans of the long war so that's covered.

Flamers get buffed in shooting by changecasters, mutaliths etc, rubrics can't.

12" shooting vs 8" shooting means they can deepstrike and shoot, unlike Rubrics.

Flamers also have double the amount of wounds and a better invul save for one less point.

Flamer weapons are pistols, which means they can flame in combat. If rubrics get stuck in combat they are done. Pretty important for a unit that wants to be in the front.

Rubrics need an artifact or a stratagem to deepstrike, flamers can just be summoned.

Flamers can fly and have double the movement of rubrics.

Flamers are just hands down better. A lot better. Rubrics really need more love than that from GW.

It often feels that our army was priced very weirdly. In 8th edition our whole army went down by one invul save with not gain and the points definitely do not reflect this. Sons went from 4++ to 5++ under the threat of achieving 3++ easily and are bad because of this, but were not costed accordingly. I meant 5++ is not even that scarce any more, everyone and their mother have it. Heck tzaangors have it for 7 points a model. Scarabs have all the drawbacks of the cataphractii armor without gaining the 4++ save it gives literally everybody else. Again, for no real reason other than "All is dust" which is super highly situational, is factored into the price as an extra ability but does not always work. Then in comes our psychic discipline, which is unreasonably priced on their casting values. It seems like they put the numbers because we can get a lot of +bonus to cast, but then again the +bonus to cast is factored in the units' price. So we pay more for being able to cast better, then our discipline is overcosted and takes that away.

And like that I go ranting again :(

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Azuza001 wrote:It depends on what your doing honestly. Rubrics with warp flamers are what you do when your looking to boost through strats and want the troop choice. Flamers are what you do when your looking to boost through spells and vortex beasts. Both can be effective if used correctly, but flamers are honestly easier to use and cheaper for what they do.

The problem is when you make a list of the things the units can do you end up with 1 or 2 things for Rubrics and 10 for Flamers.

topaxygouroun i wrote:Flickering flames = veterans of the long war so that's covered.

Flamers get buffed in shooting by changecasters, mutaliths etc, rubrics can't.

12" shooting vs 8" shooting means they can deepstrike and shoot, unlike Rubrics.

Flamers also have double the amount of wounds and a better invul save for one less point.

Flamer weapons are pistols, which means they can flame in combat. If rubrics get stuck in combat they are done. Pretty important for a unit that wants to be in the front.

Rubrics need an artifact or a stratagem to deepstrike, flamers can just be summoned.

Flamers can fly and have double the movement of rubrics.

Flamers are just hands down better. A lot better. Rubrics really need more love than that from GW.

Yes Rubrics probably need a full rework.

**Azuza001**

I cant argue any of that, however

On flickering flames vs vets : Strats can only be blocked by 2 spicific armys at this point, psycic any army can stop for the most part. Also you can just roll bad and not get flames off. Vets of the long war is much more reliable.

Rubrics are still troops. And rubrics can cast spells. Flamers cant.

I don't know if summoning is a valid argument for deep striking. Rubrics can do it via relic or strat. Flamers can do it via summons or strat. With how clunky summoning is atm thats more a point for rubrics.

I am not saying flamers are worse than rubrics, rubrics are not in a good spot and my 40 marines are sad by this, but they are different and there are a few reasons why they can find a use in an army.

**frightnight**

I'm the odd duck, I run Rubrics and think they're great. Bolter drill helped them a lot, they can cast/deny, and they're hard to shift (especially in cover, and I usually run Weaver of Fates on their sorcerer). Dropping them in via strat or relic is a bunch of super bolter shots.

My mind was also blown when it was pointed out that All Is Dust applies to the invulnerable save, too.I'd been cheating them of even further resilience!

**topaxygouroun i**

On an unrelated topic, the dual power sword exalted is no longer a thing in the faq. Damn if I know why they went and removed that right after a bunch of people broke their models to remodel them with two power swords...

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

The problem with Rubrics is simple, they are a Jack of all trades.

They can cast spells but only one and not reliably.

They can handle hordes but are slow with short range so they need a ride.

They are durable as long as you don't put any real pressure on them.

The Aspering Sorcerer is decent in CC but the rest of the unit sucks.

They can Deep Strike but don't posses the fire power to cause the amount of damage when they come in to be a true threat.

**topaxygouroun i**

When models with two times 5++ save cost 7 points, it's completely bonkers to pay 16 for a rubric marine. Rubrics used to be pricey because invul save armywide was a rare thing and they had 4++ to begin with. These days everyone has it. 5++ means nothing any more. which leaves the Rubrics completely dead in the water at 16+2 pts per model.

You know what else costs 18 pts per model? Bow enlightened. In fact it's 17. Only they have better shooting than the rubrics. They also have double the amount of wounds, more than double the movement speed, much better hth potential, get buffed by more stuff of our army and they trade a defensive special rule with an offensive one, and let's just face it, 40k at the moment is a 2-turn game. How on earth is a 3+ armor worth more than all of these?

CSM rubrics can take a cannon in 5 models, this could have given them something to write home about, but alas ours can't.

**D6Damager**

I see everyone's point, but for me I've lost games due to not having enough objective secured. So, rubrics will always have a place in the list.

**topaxygouroun i**

D6Damager wrote:
I see everyone's point, but for me I've lost games due to not having enough objective secured. So, rubrics will always have a place in the list.

We have ObSec units for 5 pts per model and we have ObSec units for 7 pts per model which also includes 5++ and Toughness 4 to match the Rubrics. The problem with the Rubrics is exactly what you say. Because for the price of 5 rubrics you can have 20 cultists, which is more obsec than the 5 rubrics are.

Don't get me wrong here, the new beta bolter rules definitely made the rubrics tasty as an MSU backfield objective holder that can still cast a spell and shoot 8 inferno shots, and if you think about it, 5 rubrics are the same points as a standard sorcerer, only they trade 1 spell cast for Troop and 8 bolter shots. However this kind of illustrates the sad part of being a sorcerer in general more than it proves a point in favor of the Rubrics.

**ChaosPriest1939**

Greetings everyone. I am still looking to go to the local LGS and be competitive (haven’t gone yet). I cleaned up the list I posted earlier in the month and have been building the army. Feedback is much appreciated. Points left over on purpose to adjust. Thanks in advance.

Spoiler:

**ArcaneHorror**

For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?

**Maxwell00**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?

I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln

But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?

**ArcaneHorror**

Maxwell00 wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?

I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln

But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?

I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.

**BoomWolf**

Yea, you're still not making any sense.

**Chrysis**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
Maxwell00 wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?

I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln

But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?

I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.

No CSM Dreadnoughts / Helbrutes of any kind are Psykers, so it's impossible for any of them to have Death Hex.

**Barnie25**

Would the type of list as I constructed below work? I wanted some board control with a renegade knight fire base. The single warglaive might look odd but it is intended to move up the board and provide a screen of the daemon princes when needed. I could see turning that into a third helverine.

Would this work?

Spoiler:

**blackmage**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
Maxwell00 wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?

I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln

But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?

I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.

where did you readcontemptors can be psykers?

**ArcaneHorror**

blackmage wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
Maxwell00 wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?

I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln

But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?

I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.

where did you readcontemptors can be psykers?

It was from a conversation that I had on FB. I think I'll just DH to my Daemon Prince of Tzeentch instead, as I've read that he gets an impressive buff from it.

**Kdash**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
blackmage wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
Maxwell00 wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?

I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln

But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?

I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.

where did you readcontemptors can be psykers?

It was from a conversation that I had on FB. I think I'll just DH to my Daemon Prince of Tzeentch instead, as I've read that he gets an impressive buff from it.

30k Thousand Sons can have a psyker Dreadnought HQ, but, the only faction in 30k that can have them is Blood Angels.

Might be where some of the confusion came from.