Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/07/31 16:24:50
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
koooaei wrote: I've had a game vs GK recently. Wanted to test mech orks, so here's a bit of info.
Ork list:
Spoiler:
Ghaz + 10 Choppaboyz [bc nob] + 5 Nobz [2 stabbas, 3 bc, 3 runts] in and enclosed Battlewagon with deffrolla
Warboss with pk and shoota + 10 Choppaboyz [bc nob] + 5 Nobz [2 stabbas, 3 bc, 4 runts] in and enclosed Battlewagon with deffrolla
5 Tankbustas [nob, squig] + 5 Tankbustas [nob, squig] in a Trukk with bs 10 Shootaboyz [nob]
5 kommandoes [2 burnas, nob]
GK list:
Spoiler:
Draigo
Champ
4 Dreadknights - all with psilancers, swords and fists - one with added psycannon
3 strike squads with psilancers
Game:
Spoiler:
Draigo and 3 NDK went in deepstrike reserves, orks got 1-st turn, moved forward, but tried to stay out of 24 psilancer range to force heavy weapon penalties. Ork shooting did 1 wound to a Dreadknight (we forgot DK was now a vehicle, so no tankbusta re-rolls and 2+, 4+ armor saves were hot).
Grey knights moved forward, Draigo and 3 dreadknights arrived near Ghazzy's wagon. Draigo purged the wagon's soul for 3 mortal wounds. And together with all the smiting and shooting, they downed a wagon - i haven't passed a single 4+ and 5+ save i had there). However, they all failed the long 11+ charges.
In return, orks dealt 3 wounds to an allready wounded DK (who saved everything other than a rokkit), went forward and multi charged Draigo and dreadknights with Ghaz, Warboss, nobz, a squad of boyz, trukk and a wagon. Ghaz inflicted 6 damage to Draigo, who initiated a counter-attack strategem and chopped down a couple nobz and all the runts. Warbosse's squig ate Draigo's face, boss, nobz and a wagon finished off a wounded DK (wagon inflicted 3 wounds) and the other nobz together with boyz dealt 5 wounds to another dreadknight. 2 dreadknights piled in to Ghaz and weren't too lucky with their striking - only 1 wound went through which ended up to be 5 damage - leaving Ghaz with 3 wounds. Trukk consolidated to tie up the third DK which whiffed all it's 4 attacks.
Magic inflicted 5 mortal wounds to a wagon, shooting saw a squad and a half of choppaboyz and half the shootaboyz down. Champ charged a wagon and dealt 3 or 4 wounds to it, another DK charged a trukk and wrecked it in one go. Tied up DK struck Ghaz but 4++ saved the greenskin's mighty ass. Ghaz decided to go counter-offensive and chopped the wounded DK down saving himself. Wagon inflicted 2 wounds to a champ. Boss and nobz proceeded to wound DKs.
Orks moved, shot whatever they could but only a single rokkit went through dk's 4+ save. Nobz and boyz charged an untied dk and brought it down to 4 wounds. In return it killed a couple more boyz. Ghaz finished off another dk, wagon inflicted a couple more wounds to a champ.
Gk moved to the edge of the woods, the last dreadknight (4 wounds left) disengaged. Smites finished off a wagon - apparently you can still use psy powers after a disengage. Shooting killed remaining choppaboyz leaving a single nob, 2 nobz from nob squad - leaving 2 (this time my 4+ saves were hot) and...something else - don't remember now.
Champ charged Ghaz and all the strikers failed their charges and he had no CP left to re-roll. Champ striked Ghaz but a single wound that went through got saved with 4++ once again. In return Ghaz ripped the champ's face off and on the way down, champ jammed his sword into the ork Warlord's foot dealing 2 damage. Ghaz was left with 1 wound.
Orks rushed forward and went nuts with shooting - finished off a 4-wound DK with tankbustas, killed 4 strikers in one squad and even kommandoes that have finally arrived shot down a striker with a slugga. After charges and chopping only 1 striker was left. Boss piled on to him and the striker got killed off in GK's mellee phase.
Orks got a victory via wipeoput. However, it was extremely close and could have gone either way. Literally a single save was enough to change the outcome. I think that orks only won because they managed to kill Draigo early on. Re-rolls to hit were pretty significant and allowed to down a wagon in one turn. They'd be decisive in mellee with knights and would have helped striker's shooting tremendously. I think that orks wouldn't have won if GK played more defensively for a turn and counter-charged with all their strikers together with dread knights - and not just DK alone. Strikers deal a lot of damage - stormbolter and psilancer shooting is solid and their mellee is deadly vs multi-wound models.
Some thoughts:
- Ghaz is mvp once again. He's simply excellent - he deals a lot of damage, buffs the army and is quite durable for an ork. t6, w8 and 4++ is amazing to have. It's a good quiestion which warlord trate is preferable. I usually take +1 attack, however, i'd prefer 6+++ here. I'm pretty positive Ghaz is a good pick for any ork list.
- Transports are not as durable as you'd want them to be, however, they're passable and are definitely required for nobz and tankbustas. With the amount of multi-damage weapons and mortal wounds from magic, even a t8 battlewagon with 16 wounds goes down in 1-2 turns without much chances. I'm still not sure what's better - a trukk or a wagon. A wagon is ok in mellee at least. But a trukk is probably a bit more durable point-for point.
- Nobz themselves are great. However, they need ammo runts which eat up transport space. The more ammo runts you manage to fit in - the better. So, 6 nobz and 6 ammo runts is a solid unit to fit inside a trukk. 4+ armor is good now. Nobz would have been a top tier unit if transports were cheaper.
- Small units of choppaboyz are not amazing. I think trukkboyz would perform below average. Boyz for wagons...not sure about that. They sure help with eating up explosions, overwatch and in some cases smites, but they just die so easilly and don't pack enough punch. If it was a larger point game, i'd probably just get more nobz with ammo runts and leave boyz with shootas to camp on objectives. We still need a lot of CP, so at least 3 squads would be needed. This min boy squads would also in a way take big gun'z space making those obsolete - as currently big gunz are so mediocre at shooting, it's basically an afterthought and they're used just to camp on objectives.
- Tankbustas underperformed but that's mostly due to a lot of lucky 4+ armor saves. I'm still not sure about them - needs further playtesting.
- Mech orks overall feel underwhelming. we really lack bodies due to very expensive transports. If you still like mech as an alternative to hordes, try focusing on nobz and Ghaz. They're what's making the list function somewhat. However, durability is a huge issue, so minimise your drops to go first - it can help vs shooty armies. Nobz are noticeably more durable than they used to be with all the 4+ saves and ammo runts, however, don't overestimate them.
I agree I think a lot of mediocre ork units would be more viable if trukks and wagons were cheaper (heck all ork vehicles would be more viable if cheaper), but lootas and flashgits really hurt without a platform that allows them to shoot without the moving penalty. 6+ to hit is just unusable especially considering -1 to hit or higher modifiers are fairly common and completely prevent shooting. I think flashgits need 4+ saves again (and badrukk should reroll wounds not hits) and battlewagons need to allow units embarked to shoot without penalty when moving. Im glad our codex is not one of the first to be done because I think GW really needs to observe the feedback of the multiple tourney and playtesting results to see that many playtesters were completely off on how strong orks were going to be this edition. There is really only a handful of units and specific lists that make orks viable competitively this edition. I think the +1 atk is good if you have maddoc/painboy by ghaz OR if you plan to da jump and charge with ghaz first turn. However if you plan on ghaz being a major target to soak enemy fire and there isn't a painboy by him the 6+ fnp is better. zhardsnark is always better with the +1 atk because his threat range is SO large he is almost always charging first and extra atks just give you more chances for mortal wounds as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pismakron wrote: And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
to be fair you CAN move and advance or move and charge without losing stormboys.
You only lose storm boys when you move, advance and charge. which is really what you want to do for a turn 1 charge if you opponent deploys on the deployment zone line but if you opponent is deploying defensively so that you wouldn't get a turn 1 charge regardless you can choose to move and advance.
I'm also not sure how you think a move and advance of a MAXIMUM 11in is faster than 12in. its not and sadly the average is 8.5 NOT 11. stormboys are always faster and have a much easier time of jumping and hiding within ruins or line of sight blocking terrain as they ignore interveneing terrain. Maybe its because I tend to play vs many shooty lists such as guard, but I regularly move and advance my stormboys because the guard player tends to deploy further back from his deployment line and thus prevents any first turn charge from stormboys regardless. So I move and then adavance into ruins so that I get at least some type of save and then the next turn I charge or move and charge (or if I really need move and advance and charge, which is rare). My stormboys do ok. Sadly all I have is 20 stormboys and zagstrukk so the unit doesn't really survive that long vs shooty lists. The next charge into a line of guards/conscripts I usually take a beating from overwatch. I can get about 1 charge off and eliminate 1 guard unit before my stormboys are whittled down to the nob, zag and if I am lucky 1-2 stormboys but I can see how spamming them works better. I'm just unwilling to buy 20 more boxes of stormboys =P
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/31 16:59:59
2017/07/31 17:25:52
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
They are not more than twice as fast. Boyz will on average move 8.5" in the movement phase. Stormboyz will very rarely move more than twice that.
On paper I see your logic -- both units advancing the Stormboyz's 15.5" ain't double 8.5". In practice, ignoring terrain/models and the ability to advance & charge without Ghaz's presence often translates to more than double the speed. Green Tide w/ Boyz can easily be hampered by one unit's bad advance roll, thereby slowing all the models behind it. I see why McCool paid +2 points per model for that advantage.
Not necesserily. I find boy'z speed good enough - even for footsloggas. They're usually in combat turn 2. They're still more durable point-for point than stormboyz. You can have shootas in there. And greentide attack bonus is great. Also, it's harder to keep Ghaz up with stormboyz. But overall, yeah. Stormboyz are quite good as they're choppaboyz that are 2 times faster.
Eh I'd say you're playing against some friendly opponents, or getting lucky on Deployment Maps, if they're letting a tide of boyz charge on turn 2 (unless they're assault armies too -- in which case you've already won!). All the shooty/gunline lists I've played against can often deploy or move in such a way as to delay my tide until a Turn 3 charge. Probably not Stormboyz though -- their Turn 2 charge should be guaranteed. I'll have to test myself though!
2017/07/31 19:23:46
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
In my tourny list I've run 2 units of 25 stormboyz, zaggy(much more worth it when he can provide ld benefits to two squads) along with 90 boyz, and characters and KMKs. The Stormboyz are always into something by turn two, and oftern turn one if they moved anything forward when they usually go first. They are much faster than footsloggers due to their ability to ignore terrain and jump over models of both forces. Also even though it hurts to lose a couple boyz to advance and charge its totally worth it when you need it. If you skip a charge because you wanted to save 3-4 stormboyz you're not going to feel great when your opponent kills 15 with shooting the next turn.
Eh I'd say you're playing against some friendly opponents, or getting lucky on Deployment Maps, if they're letting a tide of boyz charge on turn 2 (unless they're assault armies too -- in which case you've already won!). All the shooty/gunline lists I've played against can often deploy or move in such a way as to delay my tide until a Turn 3 charge. Probably not Stormboyz though -- their Turn 2 charge should be guaranteed. I'll have to test myself though!
A static gunline will lose when playing Maelstrom. And when doing so, I think turn 2 charges with a green tide list is the norm. But of course you cannot assault behind their screen as you can with stormboyz.
2017/07/31 21:51:17
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Sure, Maelstrom favors lists with some mobility. But Guilliman gunline (a very popular list these days) doesn't need to worry about silly objectives when it can just table you!
2017/07/31 23:20:01
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Novelist47 wrote: How about putting them into a Big Trakk with a Kannon. 6 Flash Gitz with kannon and big shootas inside 15 wounds m 14' beast sounds pretty good on paper. They count as being stationary to boot.
Unfortunately GW ruled that the passengers still count as having moved (at least for the Battlewagon they do, I assume it's the same for the Big Trakk).
Did they say whether Ammo Runts still provide re-rolls when a unit fires out of an open-topped transport?
YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA!
2017/08/01 16:51:14
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Alright ladz, after watching my buddies tournament last week I have my own coming up. 2,000pt ITC rules. I am thinking about running a Foot sloggin list with 30 boyz getting "Da Jump" every turn and running 2 squads of 20 Storm Boyz. as well as spamming Deff Koptas and Kommandos to really tie down my opponents back field and allow me to scoot around with some fast units and capture objectives. So here is my 2,000pt List.
FAST ATTACK: 674pts
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Stormboyz x20 (W/Nob)
Stormboyz x20 (W/Nob)
So I will very clearly be going 2nd most of the time I intend to force my opponent to make all his real drops first, As in actually on the table, by using my units to stay in reserve (Kommandos, Koptas) I am reasonably sure this will allow me to see how my opponent is set up. After that I will deploy my Boyz, Ghaz, Mad Dok, Weirdboyz and KFF Big Mek in a giant blob furthest from his dakka units, I will then deploy the Stormboyz on whichever flank looks like they have the best access to cover and won't run into things they can't deal with.
After his 1st turn in which he will inevitably turtle up OR possibly advance (here is hoping) I will then decide whether to deploy ALL my reserves on the table or to save them for later in the game. If they deploy they will either be going to grab an objective OR to be spammed into my enemies backlines to trap his units. None of my units are particularly good, strong or able to do much, but their upside is there will be 40 Kommandos in 8 Units and 4 Deff Kopta Units, this means my opponent won't be able to dakka a large target and will be forced to waste a lot of attention on units that don't matter for fear that they will survive. I played a game where my opponent used 2 lascanons to finish off a Deff Kopta only for it to only receive 1 damage he was rather angry.
Any tweaks you guys think I should make? In addition to all the above mentioned units I also have access to:
40 Grots
6 Meganobz
10 Tankbustas
12 Kanz
2 Dreadz
1 Morkanaut
30 Lootas
Dakkajet
2 More Koptas
5 More stormboyz
a plethora of Nobz
3 Trukkz
3 Wagonz
6 Mek Gunz (All geared as KMKs)
a few more boyz
30+ Warbikes.
I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
2017/08/01 17:10:31
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
pismakron wrote: I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
Everything is bare bones. I personally don't feel a Big choppa is worth 9pts in this edition. You get 3 attacks with a Nob with Big Choppa at S7 or 4 with Choppa at S5 Against a vehicle the difference is negligible (1 wound with -1 AP vs 1 wound with 0 AP). I would rather drown my opponent in models and dice.
pismakron wrote: I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
Everything is bare bones. I personally don't feel a Big choppa is worth 9pts in this edition. You get 3 attacks with a Nob with Big Choppa at S7 or 4 with Choppa at S5 Against a vehicle the difference is negligible (1 wound with -1 AP vs 1 wound with 0 AP). I would rather drown my opponent in models and dice.
Mathhammer time!
Just to stack things in favor of a bare bones Nob, let's say you're fighting against T4 3+ Save
Boss Nob w/ Choppa --> 4 Attacks --> 2.67 Hits --> 1.78 Wounds --> 0.59 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.59 Damage --> 0.59/6 = 0.0983 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa --> 3 Attacks --> 2 Hits --> 1.33 Wounds --> 0.665 Unsaved Wounds --> 1.33 Damage --> 1.33/15 = 0.08867 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Power Klaw --> 3 Attacks --> 1.5 Hits --> 1.25 Wounds --> 1.04 Unsaved Wounds --> 2.08 Damage --> 2.08/31 = 0.0671 Damage Per Point
Power Klaw deals highest damage output, Choppa deals highest Damage Per Point ratio, and Big Choppa is in the middle. These averages were calculated against T4. But against toughness 5+ targets, you'll find the Big Choppa wins out in Damage Per Point against the Choppa.
TLDR Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa is the most points efficient against T5+ multi-wound targets. Against T4 (and under) single-wound targets, the bare Nob wins.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/01 18:01:45
2017/08/01 18:10:54
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Just to stack things in favor of a bare bones Nob, let's say you're fighting against T4 3+ Save
Boss Nob w/ Choppa --> 4 Attacks --> 2.67 Hits --> 1.78 Wounds --> 0.59 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.59 Damage --> 0.59/6 = 0.0983 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa --> 3 Attacks --> 2 Hits --> 1.33 Wounds --> 0.665 Unsaved Wounds --> 1.33 Damage --> 1.33/15 = 0.08867 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Power Klaw --> 3 Attacks --> 1.5 Hits --> 1.25 Wounds --> 1.04 Unsaved Wounds --> 2.08 Damage --> 2.08/31 = 0.0671 Damage Per Point
Power Klaw deals highest damage output, Choppa deals highest Damage Per Point ratio, and Big Choppa is in the middle. These averages were calculated against T4. But against toughness 5+ targets, you'll find the Big Choppa wins out in Damage Per Point against the Choppa.
TLDR Big Choppa is usually the most points efficient.
Except the Choppa is free And If I take a big choppa I have to then subtract 2 boyz from my units in order to pay for those weapons. And Big Choppas are only more effective vs T5-7 where I don't need help. T8 they suck as bad as a regular choppa. So, since I don't need help vs T5-7 (Drown them in S4 choppa attacks from the boyz) I don't see the point
Don't get me wrong its a close call, but my entire list focuses on spamming model counts in MSU style so the more models i can field the better.
pismakron wrote: I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
Everything is bare bones. I personally don't feel a Big choppa is worth 9pts in this edition. You get 3 attacks with a Nob with Big Choppa at S7 or 4 with Choppa at S5 Against a vehicle the difference is negligible (1 wound with -1 AP vs 1 wound with 0 AP). I would rather drown my opponent in models and dice.
Bear in mind that the Big Choppas has Damage 2 which can help get that extra wound off to being vehicles down their table.
YMDC = nightmare
2017/08/01 18:29:40
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Except the Choppa is free And If I take a big choppa I have to then subtract 2 boyz from my units in order to pay for those weapons. And Big Choppas are only more effective vs T5-7 where I don't need help. T8 they suck as bad as a regular choppa. So, since I don't need help vs T5-7 (Drown them in S4 choppa attacks from the boyz) I don't see the point
Don't get me wrong its a close call, but my entire list focuses on spamming model counts in MSU style so the more models i can field the better.
Mathhammer Time!
Against T8 3+
Boss Nob w/ Choppa --> 4 Attacks --> 2.67 Hits --> 0.89 Wounds --> 0.3 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.3 Damage --> 0.3/6 = 0.05 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa --> 3 Attacks --> 2 Hits --> 0.67 Wounds --> 0.335 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.67 Damage --> 0.67/15 = 0.0447 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Power Klaw --> 3 Attacks --> 1.5 Hits --> 1 Wound --> 0.83 Unsaved Wounds --> 1.66 Damage --> 1.66/31 = 0.0535 Damage Per Point
So yeah, it seems the right decision if there's literally no other wargear that you could drop to pay for a Big Choppa or PK. But let me ask you this: when's the last time you charged a 20+ unit of Boyz and got them ALL within 1" to fight? Often some Boyz will get left out due to mitigating terrain and sheer space limitation. You'll want that Nob to output more damage, even at a slight DPP reduction.
Also you'll find +1 Attack bonuses from Ghaz/Warpath benefits the Big Choppa/PK more than the Choppa in terms of Damage & DPP.
Your list is on the right track, but could be more TAC. As it stands, the more T8 models your opponent brings the worse-off you'll do -- because all you've brought to best deal with them is Ghaz and Grotsnik. S4 Boyz wounding on 6's lose so much effectiveness.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/01 18:35:57
2017/08/01 19:34:15
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
I plan to deal with T8 vehicles and monsters the same way I have been dealing with them. tie them up in CC and promptly ignore them. Land Raiders and such can kill squads in the shooting phase by themselves, but in CC? They are trash. My list is designed to attack everything en-mass from multiple directions so I should be able to assault everything easily enough. My biggest weakness is still going to be those stupid flyers but with the new rules at least nobody is going to be spamming 4+ of them.
pismakron wrote: I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
Everything is bare bones. I personally don't feel a Big choppa is worth 9pts in this edition. You get 3 attacks with a Nob with Big Choppa at S7 or 4 with Choppa at S5 Against a vehicle the difference is negligible (1 wound with -1 AP vs 1 wound with 0 AP). I would rather drown my opponent in models and dice.
Bear in mind that the Big Choppas has Damage 2 which can help get that extra wound off to being vehicles down their table.
Also bear in mind the reason you take BC or klaws is the same reason we took them in 7th edition but even moreso in 8th since we choose which model is destroyed out of the unit.
The fact is a BC or klaw is usually the last wpn standing in a unit making it a lot better for the points invested then a basic choppa that is randomly discarded. That boost in efficeiny for the small price you pay is extremely durable and lasts for a long time.
If people are actually playing games instead of theory hammering they would notice that generally the BC nob carries a lot of weight and does considerably more damage then just having 1.5 more boys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 19:39:54
2017/08/01 19:49:52
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
If people are actually playing games instead of theory hammering they would notice that generally the BC nob carries a lot of weight and does considerably more damage then just having 1.5 more boys.
I take offense to this! What else are we here to do but theory hammer? Can't play games on a DakkaDakka forum thread. Plus my math was agreeing with you!
2017/08/01 20:44:30
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
You mentioned that single-wound models favor the bare nob, but not by how much.
You don't get to multiply damage x 2 in those cases, so in your first example of T4 3+, your 0.08867 Damage Per Point for BC is actually an anemic 0.04434, much worse than the choppa. It only excels slightly with high T multi-wound models, so I don't see any reason to take it.
2017/08/01 20:47:34
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
If people are actually playing games instead of theory hammering they would notice that generally the BC nob carries a lot of weight and does considerably more damage then just having 1.5 more boys.
I take offense to this! What else are we here to do but theory hammer? Can't play games on a DakkaDakka forum thread. Plus my math was agreeing with you!
We can share experience about how we play and what we face. Synergies we like to try or unexpected hard counters we may face and how to beat them. Much more interesting and useful than mathammer, which is only pure numbers and doesn't consider at all the human factor.
2017/08/01 21:39:27
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
JimOnMars wrote: You mentioned that single-wound models favor the bare nob, but not by how much.
You don't get to multiply damage x 2 in those cases, so in your first example of T4 3+, your 0.08867 Damage Per Point for BC is actually an anemic 0.04434, much worse than the choppa. It only excels slightly with high T multi-wound models, so I don't see any reason to take it.
Very true. I'm sorry for not including the extra calculations to take that into account, but I still disagree with your assessment. When you say "High T multi-wound" it's a bit redundant, as the majority of T5+ units in the game are multi-wound in nature, whilst the majority of T3-4 units are single-wound.
So here's the complete breakdown on BC vs. Choppa, assuming T3-4 models are single-wound and T5+ models are multi-wound.
1) The BC is lower DPP at T3 and T4... higher DPP at T5 through T8
2) The BC ALWAYS deals more damage at every toughness level, even against single-wound targets. This means your 9 points are never going to complete waste.
These facts alone should be enough to favor the BC. It wins at more toughness levels.
The BC becomes even more useful when you consider the context of a footslogging Boyz unit. You're not exactly able to cherry-pick the kinds of units you want to charge. Most games you're running up the table charging the first thing that's in range... it could be a Land Raider or a blob of Conscripts. Either way you're charging it. We can agree the 29x Boyz are well-suited towards fighting against T3-4 single-wound. So giving the Boyz a BC gives them more versatility, acknowledging that this unit is meant to charge anything and kill anything.
We can share experience about how we play and what we face. Synergies we like to try or unexpected hard counters we may face and how to beat them. Much more interesting and useful than mathammer, which is only pure numbers and doesn't consider at all the human factor.
It's a dice game. A greater understanding of the probabilities leads to a greater understanding of the game. We're all here to Waaagh! and make Orks competitive, right? Based on what I've written above I hope you can discern that I'm also taking into account "the human factor." But numbers help too, particularly in list-building.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 21:47:46
2017/08/01 23:23:05
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Also in defense of the BC, as you say it can pack more punch in any fixed sized unit (from 5 to 30) and more into limited space (trukk, BW or as constrained by terrain.)
Plus, it magnifies the effect of Green Tide, Warpath and Ghaz's and Wagggh Banner Nob's buffs.
So I changed my mind again...if you think these apply, then the BC is likely worth it's 9 points.
2017/08/02 01:34:19
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
JimOnMars wrote: Also in defense of the BC, as you say it can pack more punch in any fixed sized unit (from 5 to 30) and more into limited space (trukk, BW or as constrained by terrain.)
Plus, it magnifies the effect of Green Tide, Warpath and Ghaz's and Wagggh Banner Nob's buffs.
So I changed my mind again...if you think these apply, then the BC is likely worth it's 9 points.
LOL except in my list where it is competing against a free weapon. the Calculations are wrong because I am taking a 6pt boyz model and for free am turning it into a Nob. So the 6 is taken regardless, what you are really comparing is a Zero Point Choppa to a 9pt Big Choppa and that is why in my specific list it isn't worth taking. Again, I am using Soviet era tactics, quantity is its own quality
LOL except in my list where it is competing against a free weapon. the Calculations are wrong because I am taking a 6pt boyz model and for free am turning it into a Nob. So the 6 is taken regardless, what you are really comparing is a Zero Point Choppa to a 9pt Big Choppa and that is why in my specific list it isn't worth taking. Again, I am using Soviet era tactics, quantity is its own quality
Err.. what? I used the post cost of a Nob w/ Choppa @ 6pts... Nob w/ BC @ 15pts. What's wrong about that?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/02 02:45:28
2017/08/02 02:43:20
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
LOL except in my list where it is competing against a free weapon. the Calculations are wrong because I am taking a 6pt boyz model and for free am turning it into a Nob. So the 6 is taken regardless, what you are really comparing is a Zero Point Choppa to a 9pt Big Choppa and that is why in my specific list it isn't worth taking. Again, I am using Soviet era tactics, quantity is its own quality
Err.. what? I used the post cost of a Nob w/ Choppa @ 6pts... Nob w/ BC @ 15pts. What's wrong about that?
Because it implies you need to spend 6pts to get that Nob w/Choppa when in reality you have already spent it acquiring the boy. So you are comparing a FREE Upgrade to a 9pt upgrade. So when it comes to lists based on quantity over quality the choice is simple.
Because it implies you need to spend 6pts to get that Nob w/Choppa when in reality you have already spent it acquiring the boy. So you are comparing a FREE Upgrade to a 9pt upgrade. So when it comes to lists based on quantity over quality the choice is simple.
I'm not really following that logic and, respectfully, I would point your attention to various tournament players taking green tide/horde lists with similar model counts as yours who all give their nobs BCs or PKs.
Look, you posted your list in a tactica thread. You asked for advice on tweaking it. We've freely given it to you. Clearly you don't agree with the advice, and there's no convincing you otherwise. So why don't we leave it at that?
2017/08/02 03:19:40
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Because it implies you need to spend 6pts to get that Nob w/Choppa when in reality you have already spent it acquiring the boy. So you are comparing a FREE Upgrade to a 9pt upgrade. So when it comes to lists based on quantity over quality the choice is simple.
I'm not really following that logic and, respectfully, I would point your attention to various tournament players taking green tide/horde lists with similar model counts as yours who all give their nobs BCs or PKs.
Look, you posted your list in a tactica thread. You asked for advice on tweaking it. We've freely given it to you. Clearly you don't agree with the advice, and there's no convincing you otherwise. So why don't we leave it at that?
I was under the impression we were debating the merits of BC over a free Nob with Choppa because my list had that in it. Nowhere in the last page has anyone said "I like the list but you should take big choppas" What I have seen was someone ask if I was running any BCs or Shootas and I said no.
And saying "Bring BCs" is advice sure, but what would I take out to replace it? Most everything is running barebones and can't lose anymore points except the Mobz of Boyz who I want at 30 to make it so they have to lose 10 models before they lose their +1 attack buff. Are you maybe suggesting I take 1 less Deff Kopta and equip some of my nobz with Big Choppas? atm in that list I have 3 Nobz with Boyz, 8 Nobz with Kommandos and 2 more with Stormboyz for a grand total of 13 Nobz needing a BC which costs 117pts I believe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/02 03:21:29
SemperMortis, try the list out as it is. I think it is a strong list. If you find yourself struggling against, say, rhinos and dreadnaughts, then you might consider taking more BCs instead of a kommando squad or two, or perhaps a deffkopta.
Also, try and find out if you need an extra warboss. Sometimes that warboss on a bike comes in handy. Not being able to advance and charge can be a real downer.
Also, you might consider the 6+ FNP warlord trait on Ghaz. If you run him together with Grotsnik it will really improve his durability, giving him a 30% save on every wound and a personal healer. And Ghaz is such a beast this edition.
2017/08/02 10:31:41
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Boss Nob w/ Choppa --> 4 Attacks --> 2.67 Hits --> 0.89 Wounds --> 0.3 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.3 Damage --> 0.3/6 = 0.05 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa --> 3 Attacks --> 2 Hits --> 0.67 Wounds --> 0.335 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.67 Damage --> 0.67/15 = 0.0447 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Power Klaw --> 3 Attacks --> 1.5 Hits --> 1 Wound --> 0.83 Unsaved Wounds --> 1.66 Damage --> 1.66/31 = 0.0535 Damage Per Point
Damage per point is not an effective measure here cause you can't have more than one nob in boy squads. It's also impossible to calculate the dpp (damage per point) of a mass of troops cause you can't guarantee everything is going to strike while you're still paying full points for every member of the squad. So, force concentration is a thing.
2017/08/02 11:38:09
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
I would likely give BC to the Boyz and Stormboyz nobz and drop 1 Kommando Squad (5*9 = 45 points which is equal to a single bare bone Kommando squad). I don't think the difference between 7 and 8 Kommando squads is huge, You still would have 11 "reserve" units to force your opponent to reveal their deployment, You still have all your large squads. I don't see the value in putting BCs on your Kommando squads as they are too fragile for the investment.
2017/08/02 12:00:56
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
A good friend of mine is trying to get rid of his 40k Orks army. Thing is, he has most of the Forgeworld tanks like the Kill Bursta, kill blasta, kill krusha, the old Battle Fortress and some of the "improved" Trukks and stuff.
I do love the models and since they're super expensive and some aren't even available anymore it gives me quite the tingle in the fingers.
I took a look into the Xenos 2 Index and the Forgeworld Xenos Codex but I have zero Idea about Orks in 40k. I do have a Adeptus Sororitas army but that's it.
Are those things "worth it"? I mean, there are no rules for the Battle Fortress, but I guess I could run it as a (giant) Squiggoth?
Any advise if I should get them? At least 50% off or cheaper he told me.
I intend to force my opponent to make all his real drops first, As in actually on the table, by using my units to stay in reserve (Kommandos, Koptas) I am reasonably sure this will allow me to see how my opponent is set up. After that I will deploy my Boyz, Ghaz, Mad Dok, Weirdboyz and 
And If I take a big choppa I have to then subtract 2 boyz from my units in order to pay for those weapons. And Big Choppas are only more effective vs T5-7 where I don't need help. T8 they suck as bad as a regular choppa. So, since I don't need help vs T5-7 (Drown them in S4 choppa attacks from the boyz) I don't see the point 
