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 grendel083 wrote:
So tactics (I know, shocker!) for Da Jump.

Does anyone drive a Bike mounted Mek or Painboy out to catch the jumping unit in their bubble? Can end badly for the character if the jump fails.

I really don't like turn 1 jumps of 30 boyz. You're basically sacrificing them by turning on literally all their guns. You're not adding any substantial pressure with 30 isolated boys, especially if you fail the charge (which is basically a coin flip), and if they have screens you're definitely wasting your time.

I much prefer to protect the boyz as best as possible turn 1 with LOS and cover while moving forward conservatively (out of range where possible), then turn 2 have stormboyz in range as well as a jump squad, and maybe even a footslogger squad if the deployment worked out. Then the pressure is real, you'll have HQ hanging around, maybe a warbanner and ghaz, 2 to 3 squads at once, and you did not absorb maximum damage turn 1. This makes a big mek and painboy on bike really useful, they can support your stormboyz (since stormboyz always get targeted over boyz) as you fly forward, and the HQ are protected when da jump fails. All of this is on the assumption that you are NOT bringing copious amounts of kommandos, because then I would say turn 1 jump is essential. edit: and your HQ are safe if jumping fails since kommandos are guaranteed drops.

I often turn 1 jump tankbustas into range, and somewhat isolated. It's cheaper than bringing a trukk for them, and it kind of feels like deepstrike, you almost always get 1 good shot off and then they die. The good news is if you go second you can hide them out of range and likely survive to be jumped (mortars are only 48', for example), and the better news is you can sometimes get within 24" range after jumping while also being in cover. The tankbustas are a 'must kill' unit, so if you make it awkward to shoot at them you're enjoying a good run up the field with the rest of the boyz. Best case scenario is jumping in front of a screen but shooting the tanks behind it, then charging the screen successfully. None of this requires HQ to be effective, so it avoids your 'HQ on bikes' conundrum.

Another side note, don't forget you can conga-line after a jump. You have an immense amount of flexibility with your jumps, and can be in range of whatever you want if you jump a 30man squad, that conga line will probably go back to where you jumped them from if you really wanted.

 Glitcha wrote:
I was re-reading the ork index last night and I noticed something that i'm thinking might be where orks can excel. We have several ways to buff our attack characteristic. Has anyone toyed with the idea of taking all the buffs in a list to make that out?

Just off the top of my head there is a way to get a boy to have 6 attacks each if you put ghaza buff, warpath, and green tide buff on a unit.

And with the banner the boyz they all hit on 2s, the pks on 3s

But the banner is redundant if you already have the other buffs. A mob of 20+ boyz is already killy enough with 5 attacks each. The buffing characters like ghaz and the weirdboy are way more useful when they give the +1A to smaller mobs, usually units that took several casualties, like 12-15 dudes.

How are you protecting 30 boyz with los and cover? Never worked for me in 8-th. You must have a necromunda-level of terrain coverage.

 Blackie wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I was re-reading the ork index last night and I noticed something that i'm thinking might be where orks can excel. We have several ways to buff our attack characteristic. Has anyone toyed with the idea of taking all the buffs in a list to make that out?

Just off the top of my head there is a way to get a boy to have 6 attacks each if you put ghaza buff, warpath, and green tide buff on a unit.

And with the banner the boyz they all hit on 2s, the pks on 3s

But the banner is redundant if you already have the other buffs. A mob of 20+ boyz is already killy enough with 5 attacks each. The buffing characters like ghaz and the weirdboy are way more useful when they give the +1A to smaller mobs, usually units that took several casualties, like 12-15 dudes.

The banner multiplies with attacks though, while additional attacks just add up. +1 Attack will do the same amount of additional damage whether you have 2 or 5 attacks. The banner is better the more attacks you have, or in other words, bonus attacks are better if you have banner.

30 boyz will get 20 hits from warpath or Thrakka
30 boyz near banner will get 25 hits from warpath or Thrakka
15 boyz will get 10 hits from warpath or Thrakka
15 boyz near banner will get 12.5 hits from warpath or Thrakka

30 slugga boyz will get 20 hits from banner
30 shoota boyz will get 15 hits from banner
15 slugga boyz will get 7.5 hits from banner
15 shoota boyz will get 5 hits from banner
30 slugga boyz charging near Thrakka or with warpath will get 25 hits from banner
30 slugga boyz charging near Thrakka and with warpath will get 30 hits from banner

If you want to buff a mob of 15 sluggas with warpath and banner you would gain 12.5 hits from warpath and 7.5 from banner, for a total of 20. If you buff the same mob with Thrakka and warpath instead, you get 10+10 for a total of 20 as well.
If you buffed the same mob at 30 models, you get 25+20 for 45 additional hits for banner, while two bonus attacks would just yield 40 hits.

Whenever you have Thrakka or Warpath on a mob already, the banner is better or equal to adding the other one - unless you have a mob of shoota boyz that has lost its green tide bonus.

I played a friendly game against thousand suns the other day and decided to try the Morkanaut accompanied with the some Mek guns and boyz. I thought I played well then I manage to charge Magnus with the naut despite he had warp time. Turned out that my opponent did not really care. The morkonaut made 4 wounds on Magnus and got 15 back and was finished the following turn by a super smite, leving Mangus free to charge into whatever I had left.
I hope the cordex will give some buff to some of the Ork models. There is a huge difference in potential between the morkonaut and magnus given that they cost almost the same.

 koooaei wrote:
How are you protecting 30 boyz with los and cover? Never worked for me in 8-th. You must have a necromunda-level of terrain coverage.

If you play by ITC rules, the bottom level of all ruins is LOS blocking. It's a lot easier to hide units that way. It's also the reason why LOS ignoring weapons are so popular in that meta.


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Nora wrote:
I played a friendly game against thousand suns the other day and decided to try the Morkanaut accompanied with the some Mek guns and boyz. I thought I played well then I manage to charge Magnus with the naut despite he had warp time. Turned out that my opponent did not really care. The morkonaut made 4 wounds on Magnus and got 15 back and was finished the following turn by a super smite, leving Mangus free to charge into whatever I had left.
I hope the cordex will give some buff to some of the Ork models. There is a huge difference in potential between the morkonaut and magnus given that they cost almost the same.

Magnus would to the same to most models in the game, even Mortarion can bite the dust when dueling him. In general, a walker without an invulnerable save should not go up against a character with a good invulnerable save and a multi-damage close combat weapons. Trying to take on a bloodthirster or a captain with thunder hammer and relic shield would probably have yielded the same sad result.

Best thing to do with Magnus is probably clobber him with a large amounts of boyz and smite him. His defenses won't help him against either.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I was re-reading the ork index last night and I noticed something that i'm thinking might be where orks can excel. We have several ways to buff our attack characteristic. Has anyone toyed with the idea of taking all the buffs in a list to make that out?

Just off the top of my head there is a way to get a boy to have 6 attacks each if you put ghaza buff, warpath, and green tide buff on a unit.

And with the banner the boyz they all hit on 2s, the pks on 3s

But the banner is redundant if you already have the other buffs. A mob of 20+ boyz is already killy enough with 5 attacks each. The buffing characters like ghaz and the weirdboy are way more useful when they give the +1A to smaller mobs, usually units that took several casualties, like 12-15 dudes.

The banner multiplies with attacks though, while additional attacks just add up. +1 Attack will do the same amount of additional damage whether you have 2 or 5 attacks. The banner is better the more attacks you have, or in other words, bonus attacks are better if you have banner.

30 boyz will get 20 hits from warpath or Thrakka
30 boyz near banner will get 25 hits from warpath or Thrakka
15 boyz will get 10 hits from warpath or Thrakka
15 boyz near banner will get 12.5 hits from warpath or Thrakka

30 slugga boyz will get 20 hits from banner
30 shoota boyz will get 15 hits from banner
15 slugga boyz will get 7.5 hits from banner
15 shoota boyz will get 5 hits from banner
30 slugga boyz charging near Thrakka or with warpath will get 25 hits from banner
30 slugga boyz charging near Thrakka and with warpath will get 30 hits from banner

If you want to buff a mob of 15 sluggas with warpath and banner you would gain 12.5 hits from warpath and 7.5 from banner, for a total of 20. If you buff the same mob with Thrakka and warpath instead, you get 10+10 for a total of 20 as well.
If you buffed the same mob at 30 models, you get 25+20 for 45 additional hits for banner, while two bonus attacks would just yield 40 hits.

Whenever you have Thrakka or Warpath on a mob already, the banner is better or equal to adding the other one - unless you have a mob of shoota boyz that has lost its green tide bonus.

Agreed but the weirdboyz and ghaz have other qualities than buffing the boyz, while the banner doesn't. Weirdboyz can cast smite and ghaz can smash in combat. Usually the buffs on big mob of boyz are wasted, unless they go against something really big. That's why I've always found the banner a bit redundant with tons of boyz. It never made the difference in the games I've played unless it buffed meganobz or kanz. I think it's another good but overcosted unit, the banner nob should be 50ish points like the painboy IMHO.


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 Jidmah wrote:


Best thing to do with Magnus is probably clobber him with a large amounts of boyz and smite him. His defenses won't help him against either.

Matches my experience against the TS lord of war. Target him with all your rokkits and KMKs, then try to assault him with boyz. Weirdboyz can help as well smiting him.

You obviously need to do more smashing with your Waagh! Banner (mine has a silly count of six killed tau hover tanks)
He also got a kustom shoota!

On a more serious note, the banner is usually buffing more than one mob and more often than not a warboss or other character with a PK. Smite is nothing but damage, as long as the banner yields more damage than the average two mortal wounds, it's superior. It's also worth to note that the banner will always work on both turns and cannot failed, be denied or blown up by daemons.
If you are already running Thrakka, you should always consider a Waagh! Banner before bringing a warpath weird boy. More likely though, you will bring neither.
If you are not running Thrakka, run Thrakka.

In my experience buffs are not needed and boyz have very little trouble killing what they charge. The only time that is no true is when they are wounding on 5's.

 Jidmah wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
How are you protecting 30 boyz with los and cover? Never worked for me in 8-th. You must have a necromunda-level of terrain coverage.

If you play by ITC rules, the bottom level of all ruins is LOS blocking. It's a lot easier to hide units that way. It's also the reason why LOS ignoring weapons are so popular in that meta.

Yep, this is exactly the case. In some tournaments i've been on tables where there are big enough enclosed buildings to hold my full 30 stormboyz, I smash those games. But other tables are just random gems and trees and no LOS at all. But you know, you only need LOS against a few units the other army has usually, you gotta pick what matters.

This kind of shows how desperately regular 40k needs better terrain rules. Since ITC rules basically don't exist in my area, I got to claim cover for single mob of boyz in 8th so far, and that table had a huge ruin on the edge of my deployment zone. I have yet to claim something to be out of sight.

Yeah agreed. Since our first major 8th tournament, my play group bought MDF terrain, which is pretty solid, no windows and gak for LOS. So in the end that terrain is good regardless of ITC or not (since we like maelstrom as well sometimes).

You'd be surprised how easy it is to work with even one tower that is a block without windows.

But those blocks then looks silly. Real building have windows. We rather make new terrain rules. Sensible terrain interaction isn't that hard and besides works better for our terrain than abstract rules

On the mention of Terrain and LOS. I usually try to use vehicles to block LOS. Orks it a little hard to do with how our vehicles are designed. A lot easier with space marines. Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.

To protect my guys, I've started to use trukks has overwatch suppressors. In a recent game I had two trukks. One with 12 boyz in it and another with 10. I got out and mob up. 1 trukk move closer to the target for the boyz to eat over watch. The other went for a different unit. By engaging that other unit with the trukk it shut them down and force my opponent to either stay in combat with me or fall back and not fire.

 Glitcha wrote:
... Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.

This has happened in my local meta, too. IG player runs two earthshaker platforms and a handful or mortars. Range is effectively infinite, and they ignore LoS.

My best success against this has been aggressively taking midfield - placing 6 KMKs right up at the edge of my deployment -and trying to win on points.But typically, my tankbustas are taken out at extreme range turn 1 or 2, then a few tanks with gatling cannons or flamers roll out and cut my infantry down, and it's just game over. It's frustratingly non-interactive.

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
... Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.

This has happened in my local meta, too. IG player runs two earthshaker platforms and a handful or mortars. Range is effectively infinite, and they ignore LoS.

My best success against this has been aggressively taking midfield - placing 6 KMKs right up at the edge of my deployment -and trying to win on points.But typically, my tankbustas are taken out at extreme range turn 1 or 2, then a few tanks with gatling cannons or flamers roll out and cut my infantry down, and it's just game over. It's frustratingly non-interactive.

Its usually why I take jets to put pressure on those back field units that don't need LOS to fire. If you get lucky, you can fly your jets right behind the artiliery pieces and put shots into the crew. No crew, no gun.

 Glitcha wrote:
No crew, no gun.

Not with earthshakers. They're stationary vehicle squadrons, so no crew required.

 Glitcha wrote:
On the mention of Terrain and LOS. I usually try to use vehicles to block LOS. Orks it a little hard to do with how our vehicles are designed. A lot easier with space marines. Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.

To protect my guys, I've started to use trukks has overwatch suppressors. In a recent game I had two trukks. One with 12 boyz in it and another with 10. I got out and mob up. 1 trukk move closer to the target for the boyz to eat over watch. The other went for a different unit. By engaging that other unit with the trukk it shut them down and force my opponent to either stay in combat with me or fall back and not fire.

That only protects when rhino is sideways though. Length wise zero help. Truck i'm pretty sure has zero protection. Those wheels aren't that big...

tneva82 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
On the mention of Terrain and LOS. I usually try to use vehicles to block LOS. Orks it a little hard to do with how our vehicles are designed. A lot easier with space marines. Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.

To protect my guys, I've started to use trukks has overwatch suppressors. In a recent game I had two trukks. One with 12 boyz in it and another with 10. I got out and mob up. 1 trukk move closer to the target for the boyz to eat over watch. The other went for a different unit. By engaging that other unit with the trukk it shut them down and force my opponent to either stay in combat with me or fall back and not fire.

That only protects when rhino is sideways though. Length wise zero help. Truck i'm pretty sure has zero protection. Those wheels aren't that big...

Didn't say it was an effective strategy, but something that could be tried.

Other than massed tank bustas, what's our best option for titan killing? I went up against a couple of Wraithknights in a tourney and all I did was get one to only about 3 wounds left.

Weirdboyz, buddy.

I know it's not woth it but deff dread are kind off ok against big stuffs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and a big mass of boyz can do the job with the right buff... with 150 attacks, you gonna have some 6 IMHO

A deff dread is gona inflict around 80% more damage than the same amount of unbuffed boyz. Though, it's super vulnerable and slow. Boyz are still better.

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Other than massed tank bustas, what's our best option for titan killing? I went up against a couple of Wraithknights in a tourney and all I did was get one to only about 3 wounds left.

Massed KMKs, like 8+ of them, and smite spam through weirdboyz with 5+ of them.

The problem with dreads vs big stuff is that the dread won't reach an appopriate target 99% of the games. He's a slow melee unit and very vulnerable to anti tank. Against big stuff, damage them with KMKs, rokkits or smite and finish them off or tarpit them with boyz.

Kannons also work OK against large models, though less efficient than KMK, they are vastly better than most other options in the codex.
Thrakka can also do a ton of damage to a titanic unit, but expect him to die afterwards.

Just wanted to say great work on the OP

Has any one tried a Min Maxed Brigade detachment?
I'm wondering if I can fit 2 in a 2000 point list. Just for kicks, low expectation. I was planning to use Grot mobs for most if not all of my troop choices but the focus solo Mek guns and other shooting units .to build a mostly shooting list. 2 detachments may be a bit too ambitious for 2000 points. Hopefully I will have points left over for aircraft as well.
I had also thought if I could build this for 1000 points or a little less to stick in a Stompa.
This is really 3 different possible builds. I haven't run the points yet.

But why the brigade? Do you really need this CP for some reason?

 koooaei wrote:
But why the brigade? Do you really need this CP for some reason?

I was just thinking if I were going to build out a Min Maxed list it would be reasonable, the command points are more or less so I don't run out. It will unsettle my usual Scrumgrod if I have that many compared to how ever fewer he has. I don't expect to have much in the way of combat units and will probably need to make units interrupt as well as force them not to flee. I'm not expecting to have a large amount of LD just yet.
If I field 60 grots that only 180 points and I want to add a lot of other things before I put in any Boys mobs. Granted we have only 5 stratagems right now but there are also rerolls. I'm not expecting big things I just was wondering if anyone had done this yet.

I have come to the conclusion that Ghaz is great but over priced and unfortunately too important. Now stay with me here.

Ghaz is basically a super warboss, he is WICKED important for buffing squads and helping with morale, but because of this you tend to have him in between several squads to maximize his buff bubble. This usually means that he isn't able to charge into CC as easily since doing so would mean losing his buff on one or more squads. I really feel like a CC Buff unit like Ghaz should follow the same trajectory as CC weapons. As powerful in CC as ranged weapons are at Ranged combat but significantly cheaper. Why? because for starters it takes at least 1-2 turns longer to get into range to do some damage and when he finally gets into CC it is incredibly easy and usually not that damaging to leave CC.

When I get ghaz into CC, usually after my boyz have slogged into their targets he does work, ive had him take out a Land raider, girlyman and a number of other incredibly tough units, but again, he is fairly expensive for his buffs. Girlyman is better in CC then ghaz believe it or not AND he has significantly more amazing buffs. He has a 3++ to Ghaz's 4++, has a resurrection rule, he has 1 more attack base, he is faster, has way better ballistic skill and a better ranged weapon, more wounds, and then for his Bubble buffs, Gives you 3 Extra Command Points, lets your units advance and charge FASTER (+1 inch) Lets EVERYONE reroll 1s to hit and morale tests AND allows his Ultra Smurfs to reroll hits and wounds in Ranged AND in CC. total cost? 385pts, Ghaz on the other hand gives +1 attack on the charge and only if the unit ends its charge within 6' of ghaz. He also kills D3 boyz to restore order in a unit that failed morale. Cost? 215pts

Girlyman is 170pts more and is better across the board in every way possible, Ranged, CC, Buffing and movement. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Ghaz to be Primarch level, honestly I don't, because we don't need 1 character that is able to be targeted with every lascannon on the table. But he should be cheaper for what he does OR he should provide more incredible buffs.