Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
It's a shame they'll likely never revisit the rules for these units. :( Points, sure, but many of their rules need some revision.

That depends. FW just revisited the rules for the Exalted Keeper of Secrets (zarakynel but for AOS) and wrote up a good, solid batch of rules that makes excellent sense. There's a Slaanesh release rumored for AOS later this year / Q1 2019, and if it's anything like the Tzeench book was with Codex: Thousand Sons, there will be a 40k release too.

I bet FW will re-look at the units. Perhaps even in the next Chapter Approved they'll revisit the points costs - if not, though, no skin off my bones. Zarakynel would be worth 666 points with a 3++, and now I can get her that anyways for 2 CP. I hate spending the 2 CP sure, but it's not crippling. What cripples me is the awfulness of the rest of the Daemons book - taking two battalions with Zarakynel is just awful and gives you no other heavy hitters besides her and a DP.

Except...FW was in chapter approved....

At least Forgeworld isn't OPOMGWTH like it was in the past... of course, I think they took it too far the other way; overcosting everything to make it "for funsee's". Might see a large change now with the citadel in the US providing somewhere to go get your FW on.

I'd probably prefer it if they changed the forge world daemon lords to being generic than being special characters, like they are in age of sigmar

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
I've found in my experience that Flesh Hounds are pretty fun against Knights. They aren't infantry so Knights can't do diddly once locked in with them, and their biker base means that they can easily surround a knight, especially positioned correctly with their high movement.

Another good option is oddly enough, the great axe bloodthirster. Give it the +1 invuln and spend 2 CP to pump it to 3++ save, and you'd be suprised how much fire power they'll load into that thing just to take it down, ignoring all your other threats.

Flesh hounds are on 50mm round bases these days. Still a pretty great model for board control, decent base size, medium cost, and quick. I really need to try out my bloodthirster again now that we have a codex. The great axe one just looks fun. With my luck I'll end up facing an infantry spam army and never swing the axe!

I use Chaos Hounds for my Flesh Hounds, because they're cheaper, and they look far better. This also unfortunatly means all my bases are biker bases And putting them on 50mm would be ridiculous. I also think putting a 15 point model on a 50mm is in itself ridiculous, even though I know they'd do a better job at tarpitting.

 Rydria wrote:
I'd probably prefer it if they changed the forge world daemon lords to being generic than being special characters, like they are in age of sigmar

Yes, though I think in that case, they should be cheaper (like in Sigmar) but also less good (like in Sigmar... kinda? Haven't played enough to know but I assume doing your damage as Mortal Wounds is more powerful than not).

I actually think a 666-point Zarakynel is a neat, fluffy, kinda funny thing, provided she's worth it. The problem with her now is that she either should be like 440-460 and generic, or she should stay 666 and special but be buffed (like I've said, even something as simple as applying her -1 to be hit with melee attacks to all attacks. Or at least overwatch. ).

440?hell no. We've been there and saw her terror as a one of, if you had multiples it would be horrendous.

She's not bad even at 666 just not to turny top , honestly if she had a few more wounds, she's be great even there.

 BoomWolf wrote:
440?hell no. We've been there and saw her terror as a one of, if you had multiples it would be horrendous.

She's not bad even at 666 just not to turny top , honestly if she had a few more wounds, she's be great even there.

Right, like I said, with a small buff (a few more wounds is an example of a small buff) she'd be fine at 666.

But if you seriously think she's not worth 440/460 currently, you're deluded. My entire casual play group thinks she's way overpriced at 666. Knight Gallants have a comparable save (3+/5++ is kinda like 4++), 4 more wounds, 250% more attacks at Str 8 or it can double its strength to 16(!) with only 1 fewer attack, same speed, better shooting (i.e. literally any), for 354 points. The Gallant also has access to Relics, while as a named character, Zarakynel cannot be customized.

Meanwhile, Zarakynel is a psyker, though she gets no noticeable bonuses, and does mortal wounds in combat for just a bee's dick shy of twice as many points.

I dont understand your logic is you think a "small buff" would make her good at 666, but she's not completely crazy at 460?

That's 200 point gap. that's not "small buff" level of gap.


Zara is a beast. she MULCHES a knight in CC-she has effective 3++ in CC (effective 2++ if you invest in warp surge) and with the soulstealer-the knight don't get saves.
Slanessh has a lot of ways to lower enemy attacks, wreck enemy LD, and abuse wrecked LD.

Zara is FAR stronger than magnus/morty, and should not cost like them. let alone be repeatable.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I dont understand your logic is you think a "small buff" would make her good at 666, but she's not completely crazy at 460?

That's 200 point gap. that's not "small buff" level of gap.


Zara is a beast. she MULCHES a knight in CC-she has effective 3++ in CC (effective 2++ if you invest in warp surge) and with the soulstealer-the knight don't get saves.
Slanessh has a lot of ways to lower enemy attacks, wreck enemy LD, and abuse wrecked LD.

Zara is FAR stronger than magnus/morty, and should not cost like them. let alone be repeatable.

She doesn't actually mulch a knight in CC, really. She takes 3 turns, on average, to kill one, during which it is either blasting her in the face with far, far more powerful weapons while still getting to attack first in combat on its turn, as it can fall back and shoot and charge, and/or using Death Grip to utterly ignore her invuln saves and do mortal wounds every time their d6+1 beats my d6. It doesn't really matter if she has an invuln save or not if they have a fist and can Death Grip her a couple of times. She's 1 strength lower than them, so breaking out is actually quite difficult.

And yes, Slaanesh has lots of ways to do those things, but Zarakynel doesn't (Well, she does lower LD, for what it's worth ).

Zarakynel is not stronger than Magnus or Mortarion, at least according to my play group's experience with her. Mortarion has real buffs he can get, including a -1 to-hit while having a great Mortal Wound aura, and Magnus doesn't have to get into combat to do his damage. They both also are far more maneuverable with the Fly keyword. You can keep Zarakynel from assaulting you by being higher than an inch off the ground...

Not sure about Zarakynel or Slaanesh in general these days, kinda waiting for Fulgrim (fingers crossed!).....but I do think Angraath is a super Knight killer!

How are normal Keepers of Secrets?

Not worth the use. Its not that they are bad per se but anything they can do a deamon prince can do better for cheaper.

Has anyone gotten good results from spined chaos beasts?

People are really advocating for "fluffy" unit costs? I don't see how this makes the unit fun to use - it really just de-incentivizes fluffy lists honestly - as they can't be used against decent armies. I feel there is a real shade of bias of people saying the greater daemons are well costed - there is a reason they are scarcely seen in ANY list - and it isn't because "omg forgeworld too expensive"

The fact the community is divided on this probably means it won't be fixed... disheratening and unbelievable - time to relegate these models to the shelf (RIP Aetaos'rau'keres - who is apparently "well costed" at 1500)...

I don't think the "doesn't belong in smaller games" thing works very well in this edition. If the big units aren't worth their points, being part of a huge game isn't going to change that IMO.

orkswubwub wrote:
People are really advocating for "fluffy" unit costs? I don't see how this makes the unit fun to use - it really just de-incentivizes fluffy lists honestly - as they can't be used against decent armies. I feel there is a real shade of bias of people saying the greater daemons are well costed - there is a reason they are scarcely seen in ANY list - and it isn't because "omg forgeworld too expensive"

The fact the community is divided on this probably means it won't be fixed... disheratening and unbelievable - time to relegate these models to the shelf (RIP Aetaos'rau'keres - who is apparently "well costed" at 1500)...

Well, he could be well-costed at 1500. He just needs buffs!

But yeah, there are people saying Zarakynel is worth almost twice the points of a Knight Gallant for unclear reasons.

EVERY FW Gd is overcosted, period, 888pt for the Korne one? seriously? 1500 for Tz one?

What are people finding as a good unit size for fiends of Slanesh?

 blackmage wrote:
EVERY FW Gd is overcosted, period, 888pt for the Korne one? seriously? 1500 for Tz one?

Funny enough, the Khorne one got hit the least hard out of the 4. Only got a 188 point increase, which in my mind doens't totally break him in half, like how bird boy got obliterated.

Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.

A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).

Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.

A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).

Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.

yes im testing double gatling IK+2 armiger with my Nurgle Battalion+ Ts supreme command

 blackmage wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.

A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).

Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.

yes im testing double gatling IK+2 armiger with my Nurgle Battalion+ Ts supreme command

What’s working in the Nurgle detachment btw?

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.

A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).

Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.

yes im testing double gatling IK+2 armiger with my Nurgle Battalion+ Ts supreme command

What’s working in the Nurgle detachment btw?

not sure what you meant... btw... Nurgle demons works fine with Dg whole demons detachments like outrider with 3 bloated drones+Dp or spearhead with 3 PBC+Dp, not sure if i answered ur question.

Dactylartha wrote:
What are people finding as a good unit size for fiends of Slanesh?

Been trying them out on and off. Ones and twos seem ok. If you’ve got something else to eat overwatch, a single can tag a tank and shut down it’s guns, but will need backup to avoid getting pulled apart by a counter attack unit. A pair can charge a moderately shooty unit on their own and have enough survive overwatch to lock it down a turn. A load of solo Fiends have got an ok chance of one of them executing a T1 charge, but you’ll want a Warptimed unit to join them as a lot of screens have the capability to kill it by weight of attacks. Best case scenario is something scary like a Defiler or KoS joins it and stamps the remaining members of the victim unit to death in the enemy’s turn. Renegade Berzerkers can fairly reliably make it if they disembark and Warptime - just don’t go all in on the charge and let your opponent remove the models hugging the fiend.

Main trouble I find is the base. 40mm is comedically tiny for a model of this size, and using a larger one with this kind of superpower is definitely going to raise eyebrows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, be wary of Smite. Don’t want to get blatted in the psychic phase. Pairs of Fiends are one solution, but an accompanying unit with disposable wounds is preferable.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.

A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).

Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.

Personally, if I'm going to in invest that in a knight, I would take something else that costs a little bit more if not the same (GUO, LoC, Mortarian, Magnus) to do the same job, but provide other bonuses too (psychic powers, etc.)

You have to sink a LOT of CP into the Knights to make them viable, which I feel are better spent on things like Warp Surge, the Plaguebearer bonus banner, etc. Plus Knights are pretty solo.

The most I would be willing to do is the double AC Armigers, but even then... I still don't like that they bring no synergy to the list.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
What are people finding as a good unit size for fiends of Slanesh?

Been trying them out on and off. Ones and twos seem ok. If you’ve got something else to eat overwatch, a single can tag a tank and shut down it’s guns, but will need backup to avoid getting pulled apart by a counter attack unit. A pair can charge a moderately shooty unit on their own and have enough survive overwatch to lock it down a turn. A load of solo Fiends have got an ok chance of one of them executing a T1 charge, but you’ll want a Warptimed unit to join them as a lot of screens have the capability to kill it by weight of attacks. Best case scenario is something scary like a Defiler or KoS joins it and stamps the remaining members of the victim unit to death in the enemy’s turn. Renegade Berzerkers can fairly reliably make it if they disembark and Warptime - just don’t go all in on the charge and let your opponent remove the models hugging the fiend.

Main trouble I find is the base. 40mm is comedically tiny for a model of this size, and using a larger one with this kind of superpower is definitely going to raise eyebrows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, be wary of Smite. Don’t want to get blatted in the psychic phase. Pairs of Fiends are one solution, but an accompanying unit with disposable wounds is preferable.

Thanks for this. Right now I only have one, and it's the dark elf clawed fiend since i really don't like the boobed anteater model. Working on building up my summoning options as right now I only have Khorne Dawgs and KARANAK And Skarbrand. I need more gimmick summons and was hoping the fiend(s) would do the trick.

I suppose quite a few of us invested in Horticulous and a bunch of trees. How are they caring since the big FAQ? AFAICT, the new deep strike rules have somewhat nerfed this combo?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I don't think the "doesn't belong in smaller games" thing works very well in this edition. If the big units aren't worth their points, being part of a huge game isn't going to change that IMO.

Locally we use power level in apoc and most games over 3K. Those games are also more about just putting your whole collection down, so the sub par pointed units show up pretty often. Plus, I've never been to a competitive apoc game, though I have seen a WAAC player at an apoc game, and they did not have a good time lol.

What is everyone's thoughts on the best daemon prince? I'm bringing a small nurgling battalion with a poxbringer and daemon prince for some DG support. I realized that the locus might not help me too much, would a khorne axe DP be a better choice?

Alright I've been out of the game for a long time now...

The 40k Match Play FAQ rules are 'beta.' Meaning that half of your Power Level total needs to be on the table. Where are the limits of Turn1 deepstrike everyone keeps talking about? What are the limits of using stratagems to deepstrike my letters and horrors? Can anyone point me in the right direction of getting caught up with the current rules?