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But 1500 points is too much imho

yes it is a ridicolous cost, no one play it anymore in standard games, it s a model for Apocalypse kind of games.

 buddha wrote:

 Malathrim wrote:
Why are Nurglings in the top spots? I have used them and they just sucked crap so bad! They infiltrated, made it into combat, didn't do anything, lost a few models, then got shot up super bad after a few fallbacks. Just not worth it aside from CP cheapo battalion I think.

9 Flamers of Tzeentch backed by a Fluxmaster and the Changeling for a 6+FNP is pretty decent I think. Toss in a Tzeentch DP that's a good Supreme Command isnt' it?

You are not using nurglings right. The only time they should be in combat is if you are trying to lock a vehicle or support unit. Their use, is to grab objectives and be annoying for a 54-point troop choice. In ITC, they already valuable for Recon secondaries and also to block out deep Strikers.

Yeah. Grots don't have offensive output worth a much either(handy at most for clearing IG chaff) yet are generally the MVP's of my armies! Cheap wounds so they control board, soak up firepower, take objectives etc...Albeit grots rather than nurglings but still both units are utility rather than kill. Cheap units have value of it's own. And nurgling deployment rule is great.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
LoC vs Knight does around 2 from smite + 1d6 wounds after all failed hits and wounds. So 5 wounds to Knight. It is not bad but not the best.
We can take DP of Khorne with axe artifact and do more for 180pts.

But that's why I want to try out Big Bird, since he will do 9.7W to a regular knight in shooting (with the power for +1 to wound) and 25W wounds to a regular knight in combat on average. He's also even tougher than the robe LoC since he has 27W, T8 as well as the 2++ invul and the -1 damage trait.

My list at start of 8th was aetaos/malefic lords/giant chaos spawn/brimstone's. So I know how awesome aetaod can be in the field, but he isn't worth is 1500 pt cost right now(he was totally crushed with CA) and far too expensive to be worth it

Which is better, Kairos or LoC?

Still, on paper at least, he looks like he should be able to take on an entire army. I'm going to try him out tomorrow in a 2500pts game against 5 Imperial Knights (some regular knights, some FW), so I'll see how he holds up there. I might also try him out against a horde army and see how he does there.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Which is better, Kairos or LoC?

LoC is so much better than Kairos that it isn't even funny.

LoC would get wrecked really really hard by Vect though, no? Vect + poison + dissies seems like bye bye Big Bird.

I never said LoC was good, it's just a lot better than Kairos

barboggo wrote:
LoC would get wrecked really really hard by Vect though, no? Vect + poison + dissies seems like bye bye Big Bird.

He still has a 3++ with up to 2 rerolls (robe + strat), but yes. Venoms would wreck him quickly. Ravagers less so, because they need 5s to wound

barboggo wrote:
LoC would get wrecked really really hard by Vect though, no? Vect + poison + dissies seems like bye bye Big Bird.

It would get wrecked harder by a Space Marine army with Null Zone or a CSM army with Death Hex.

Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.

 Glitcha wrote:
Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.

The biggest issue with Summoning is its basically reserve points that you aren't guarenteed to successfully use... on top of it, you can't move before summoning. Plus the game is still extremely alpha-strike heavy, especially with Knights being so prevalent. I dunno, I just can't stomach the uncertainty; I can see it being useful to bring back a character like Epidemus, but after you die I believe the tally resets, so... dunno. Might be nifty to bring in a unit of Brimstones to hold an objective last second.

 Zid wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.

The biggest issue with Summoning is its basically reserve points that you aren't guarenteed to successfully use... on top of it, you can't move before summoning. Plus the game is still extremely alpha-strike heavy, especially with Knights being so prevalent. I dunno, I just can't stomach the uncertainty; I can see it being useful to bring back a character like Epidemus, but after you die I believe the tally resets, so... dunno. Might be nifty to bring in a unit of Brimstones to hold an objective last second.

In my recent game. from the example in my post above. I used the points to summon back 5 of my 10 flesh hounds that had got killed in the first turn. Which yes I was not able to move, but the character summoning was a hearld on Juggernaut that was already in CC. I don't think you would ever summon with the big guys that you want to keep moving on the table. It would be more for a utility character that is supporting your army. Get them some place on the table where they can camp for a turn and then summon whatever unit you are waiting. The nice thing is you don't have to declare what unit. Just that you are going to summon and the number of d6's you plan to use. (1-3)

 Glitcha wrote:
Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.

If you’re taking a horde of Pink Horrors and have budgeted to split into blues & brims, bring some Flamers in case they get ignored and you get a Tzeentch or unaligned character in a position where they don’t want to move.

Alternatively, if you’ve got a CSM gunline and don’t have space for a Daemon detachment, you might summon some plague Bearers in the path of some oncoming traffic.

If those sound like obscure unreliable niches, it’s because Summoning is very weak. Keep an eye on the Sigmar 2.0 Summoning rules and cross your fingers we’ll get something as viable and interesting as that come 9ed or CA18.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.

If you’re taking a horde of Pink Horrors and have budgeted to split into blues & brims, bring some Flamers in case they get ignored and you get a Tzeentch or unaligned character in a position where they don’t want to move.

Alternatively, if you’ve got a CSM gunline and don’t have space for a Daemon detachment, you might summon some plague Bearers in the path of some oncoming traffic.

If those sound like obscure unreliable niches, it’s because Summoning is very weak. Keep an eye on the Sigmar 2.0 Summoning rules and cross your fingers we’ll get something as viable and interesting as that come 9ed or CA18.

Nope I'm 100% Khorne daemons.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Still, on paper at least, he looks like he should be able to take on an entire army. I'm going to try him out tomorrow in a 2500pts game against 5 Imperial Knights (some regular knights, some FW), so I'll see how he holds up there. I might also try him out against a horde army and see how he does there.

Take pics! Really excited to hear how these battles go.

 Glitcha wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.

The biggest issue with Summoning is its basically reserve points that you aren't guarenteed to successfully use... on top of it, you can't move before summoning. Plus the game is still extremely alpha-strike heavy, especially with Knights being so prevalent. I dunno, I just can't stomach the uncertainty; I can see it being useful to bring back a character like Epidemus, but after you die I believe the tally resets, so... dunno. Might be nifty to bring in a unit of Brimstones to hold an objective last second.

In my recent game. from the example in my post above. I used the points to summon back 5 of my 10 flesh hounds that had got killed in the first turn. Which yes I was not able to move, but the character summoning was a hearld on Juggernaut that was already in CC. I don't think you would ever summon with the big guys that you want to keep moving on the table. It would be more for a utility character that is supporting your army. Get them some place on the table where they can camp for a turn and then summon whatever unit you are waiting. The nice thing is you don't have to declare what unit. Just that you are going to summon and the number of d6's you plan to use. (1-3)

It provides some flexibility, but if your talking from a competitive standpoint it has a few problems:
1) The units aren't a part of your army, so you lose out on CP/Detachment bonuses
2) Larger games means more guns, meaning gimping yourself early isn't necessarily good
3) Summoning some utility or troops can have use, but it can still be luck related

I can see it working in lower point levels, I just have problems buying it higher up. I'd probably give it a try if I could summon in units from my army from reserve, as opposed to spending CP, but... meh.

I'm toying with the idea of using a cheap supreme command detachment of 4 (or more) Renegade Commander (25pts per) for summoning duties.

They're cheap enough to hide out in cover near objectives to summon out units as the opponent/mission dictates.

I'm just struggling with the other 2 detachments should be and what to summon strategy wise...particularly for ITC missions.

I'm thinking the 2nd detachment could be a spearhead of 6 hellforged rapiers (3 laser destroyers/3 quad bolters) as a gunline.

No idea for the 3rd detachment... but, I'd like to leave ~500pts for summoning.

Thoughts?

Rule of 3 my dude, only 3 Renegade Commanders.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

BoomWolf wrote:Huh. no exalted flamers on the list?
I'd expect to see them getting SOME love. they got serious firepower, and are easily hidden.

Can't really fit one in without sacrificing something.

Xenomancers wrote:I find it od no one takes the LOC. LOC is an absolute beast in my games. With impossible robe and -1 damage. He never dies...and he is a super beast in CC. High probability of mega smite with long AF range. Mad mobility. At 330 hes not cheap but a good centerpiece that doesn't autodie turn 1.

Problem is his damage output: he doesn't have the melee capability to take on other big things and his psychic powers available to him are awful. Besides that, he's a bit expensive for a very survivable distraction.

LoC vs Knight does around 2 from smite + 1d6 wounds after all failed hits and wounds. So 5 wounds to Knight. It is not bad but not the best.
We can take DP of Khorne with axe artifact and do more for 180pts.

Well - He is likely going to be buffed to the 9th degree though. Increasing strength is not hard. A herald for +1 Boon for another possible and your weapon in +1 too.
So really he is going to be 8 strength at least. Maybe 9. At which point hes wrecking a knight. Between mortals and CC damage and tanking his hits with a 3++.

Also - I don't think you are factoring the +2 to cast and possibly +3 to cast or +4 to cast smite. I could just be having incredible luck - but I get a d6 smite almost every time with LOC with gaze + a reroll - it is a really high chance.

Yeah magnus does this even better BUT - Magnus is not a 3++ base and just get's blasted off the table for 50+ points. He's also not an HQ ether - LOW really hurts him. I think they can work really well together though like you were suggesting.

This debate is why I'm thinking of taking Morty, Magnus, and a LoC as the competitive base of a list. All three are must kill threats along with say a bloodletter bomb and Skullreaver prince. Sprinkle in some nurglings and I think you could break even knight lists easily.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Rule of 3 my dude, only 3 Renegade Commanders.

whoops... yeah THREE Commanders.

I'll probably fart around on battlescribe to try to come up with a list.

So I took big bird, some Bloodletter bombs and some renegades today in a game against: 1 Knight Lancer, 3 Knight Crusaders and a Knight Galaxy. It was no contest at all; big bird single handedly took down 3 of the Knights and took down the other 2 with the help of the Khorne detachment.

I'm going to try and scale it down to just Big Bird and some renegades for a 2000pt game and see how he does in that.

big bird 30 horrors 2 cheap qg and 10+10 brimstone, so you have also troops for objectives some extra pysonic and some shoot. if you prefer use bloodletters instead pink horrors

battalion
changeling
changecaster
30 pink horrors
2x10 brimstone

super heavy det
Aetaos'rau'keres

 mrhappyface wrote:
So I took big bird, some Bloodletter bombs and some renegades today in a game against: 1 Knight Lancer, 3 Knight Crusaders and a Knight Galaxy. It was no contest at all; big bird single handedly took down 3 of the Knights and took down the other 2 with the help of the Khorne detachment.

I'm going to try and scale it down to just Big Bird and some renegades for a 2000pt game and see how he does in that.

I've been on the fence about getting him, just because the model is sweet. Glad to hear he could do some serious work.

The skullreaver DP actually kills a knight on average rolls straight up(if he's warlord). He can fight twice BTW, so theoretically, he can kill 2 knights on the same turn.
7 attacks on charge = 6 wounds (2+ rerollable, 3+ rerollable, no knight save) * 3.5 + 1.2 * 2 + claw attack

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The skullreaver DP actually kills a knight on average rolls straight up(if he's warlord). He can fight twice BTW, so theoretically, he can kill 2 knights on the same turn.
7 attacks on charge = 6 wounds (2+ rerollable, 3+ rerollable, no knight save) * 3.5 + 1.2 * 2 + claw attack

My biggest issue with them is how squishy they are. A knights overwatch can easily kill the Demon prince on decent rolls; especially relying on a 4++ (with strat). You have to either get something else to charge and connect first, or cross your fingers.

Can i bring 3x 1000 Sons DP AND DP of Chaos? Does it count by rule of three or they are not affected by rule of three because of different name (so 1k Sons DP can't use pistol from index) ?

You can, 1K sons, DG, CSM and chaos daemons all have different daemon princes. You could bring 12 daemon princes to a game if you wanted.