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 Virules wrote:
Rumored points drops:

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2018/11/08/chapter-approved-2018-leak-compilation/

Those points drops on the greater daemons look tasty. Although while a 265 pt bloodthirster is better... without a reliable way to make it into combat it still loses to 30x bloodletters.

Looking to start a dual 40k and AoS Daemon host of Khorne and Slaanesh.

(Numerous Aelves and a resurgence of GK on the cards)

Obviously I am looking to pick up two Wrath and Rapture boxes as the core of my forces, but would it be worth also grabbing a SC! of each of those gods?

Cheers.

Gd like Bt still will never be played unless some change in their Ti or something like that will be made, why spend 265pts fora Bt when with a 235 i get 30 letters with icon+instrumenst, ds and charge 2nd turn, shrugging off multi damage weapons having obj secure and delivering 61 attacks at 2+? Maybe you can play LoC or Guo.

I would have played the GUO at 320, and I'll definitely play it at 255.

If KoS reduced its cost to 150pts, it would be competitive.

 slave.entity wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Rumored points drops:

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2018/11/08/chapter-approved-2018-leak-compilation/

Those points drops on the greater daemons look tasty. Although while a 265 pt bloodthirster is better... without a reliable way to make it into combat it still loses to 30x bloodletters.

Dunno I agree with that. I think the viability of the 'thirster is dependent on the rest of your army.

Or, better yet:


...and are we sure that the 'letters (and other troop units) didn't get a price bump?

So basically, GDs are going to get costed as distraction carnifexes, enabling us to build an army that does the heavy lifting whilst they do the fire magnetism

Mmm. Well, a first turn charge might be on the cards half the time with my KoS, then...

KOS can cost 150 but will die turn 1 with that idiotic save , Dp remain superior they cant be targeted, same for Bt , Guo have advantage of FNP at least, anyway price drop open a small door for them so maybe some lists might play them, i really hope they become really viable, i have a full hand made LoC and a Guo waiting


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
So basically, GDs are going to get costed as distraction carnifexes, enabling us to build an army that does the heavy lifting whilst they do the fire magnetism

Mmm. Well, a first turn charge might be on the cards half the time with my KoS, then...

first turn charge is strong only if your opponent play a weak list or very inesperienced, against tons of serious lists 1st turn you will charge chaffs then KOS die, 1st turn charge is like smoke and mirrors, imho.

"This unit isn't as good as one of the best units in the game" is probably not an amazing comparison. But, even then, let's head to head it with a demon prince with wings.

30 points less, +1 additional cast power, 3 damage attacks vs 2, better AP, 50% more wounds. +1 toughness and two abilities which degrade things fighting back. No fly, degrading stat profile, no aura, no meat shields.

I think even without being cheaper it's a good solid comparison. And at 150 points, who cares if its shot off the board?

 tokugawa wrote:
If KoS reduced its cost to 150pts, it would be competitive.

I don't know about competitive but it would be playable. A winged Daemon Prince is still going to be the better choice just because it has better durability for 20 pts more.

Hopefully Zeraknyl can get a realistic point cost again, instead of the meme 666pts I miss her pre nerf points cost which was around 380pts. I'd also like a drop on the points costs of Fiends and chariots, perhaps a point drop on the humble Daemonette just to make them more competitive with Bloodletters.

Hell, even Aetaos would be amazing if he dropped back down to around a thousand. I'd use him.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hell, even AetaewIos would be amazing if he dropped back down to around a thousand. I'd use him.

1000 ?

What does he actually cost at the moment ?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hell, even Aetaos would be amazing if he dropped back down to around a thousand. I'd use him.

Hell yeah... I'd take him to tourney lists if he's around thousands.


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 Rydria wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hell, even AetaewIos would be amazing if he dropped back down to around a thousand. I'd use him.

1000 ?

What does he actually cost at the moment ?

1500

 whembly wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hell, even Aetaos would be amazing if he dropped back down to around a thousand. I'd use him.

Hell yeah... I'd take him to tourney lists if he's around thousands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hell, even AetaewIos would be amazing if he dropped back down to around a thousand. I'd use him.

1000 ?

What does he actually cost at the moment ?

1500

:/

That seems way too expensive, just like Titans are :(

Thing is 30 bloodletters is still a better distraction carnifex, largely because it will be in combat the turn it drops and deny shooting for a little while. Skullreaver DP also effectively outdamages a BT because it will basically make it into combat at full health 90% of the time. The best defense for our fragile melee daemon units is getting into combat reliably, which points reductions doesn't really address. For points reductions to matter, it'd have to be to the degree where you could take the big monster purely for it's tank potential, or in other words if its durability per point becomes efficient. Which is why points reductions are most effective on units like a GUO. The fly nerf REALLY hurts the BT too.

Oh well, this would still be better than the Wraithknight "buff" lol.

At 255 i will be running a double GUO list i reckon. Theyre hard to kill combined with the excellent strats, and i think they could work extremely well combined with a double gat knight

Again, simply because something is not as good as a blood letter bomb, does not deny it from being useful. At 150 points, the KoS has a distinctly useful profile. There isn't really a great common profile of gun to shoot it (las cannons don't love the invuln, you still need quite a few to take down that number of wounds, bolters in bunches aren't common, S3 fire hates T7, Plasma is alright, but still even money to wound and the invuln still matters).

It's fast threatening and, at 150 points, cheap. A distraction carnifex, plain and simple. GUO is certainly better, but is a lot more points. Even a DP is not an insignificant amount more points.

And 100 points off the wraithknight is the same principal; it makes it much better, probably even usable if not fully competitive. Almost no army has an entire list full of meta-defining units. Bringing units into the "solidly usable" while bringing down "meta-defining" is a good way to handle things.

Yeah I agree. There's a bunch of people on this thread myself included that tend to frame everything in terms of competitive play so that's where I'm coming from. Usable, if not quite competitive, is not a bad thing.

I can see your perspective as well. Daemons aren't competitive, so we need more things that fall into competitive. As someone who favors Slaanesh, 150 point KoS feels like a blessing because it makes ~ something ~ in slaanesh kind of worthwhile. Daemonettes are in a really rough place; they don't suck enough to be likely to go down to 6 (and I think GW likes the mono 7 theme) but they really have nothing to make them better or different than bloodletters. I think if quicksilver swiftness were changed to +3" movement instead of the current mechanic which basically does nothing, we'd see at least something for them.

If the Rumors prove true and the LoC is around 245-250, I'll be more than happy to bring 2-3 of them. I can only hope Kairos receive some additional love as well.

Realistically this has me excited to take the ol' Wizard boys off the shelf and maybe make up a real Tzeentch Brigade.

 slave.entity wrote:
Yeah I agree. There's a bunch of people on this thread myself included that tend to frame everything in terms of competitive play so that's where I'm coming from. Usable, if not quite competitive, is not a bad thing.

fact is.... in casual games no matter how much a unit cost or how it performs, is not a thing that one should care when play that kind of games, when you start talk about PERFORMANCES mean ur interested in something more, if not why care if a Bt cost 300+ points and do nothing? isn't a casual game for fun where you play what you like regardless of performances? here most state "im not a competitive player" but then bother why a model isn't point wise... no sense, when i play casual games i play what i like more not what perform better, if i love a model who care if it' worthless?


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drakerocket wrote:
I can see your perspective as well. Daemons aren't competitive, so we need more things that fall into competitive. As someone who favors Slaanesh, 150 point KoS feels like a blessing because it makes ~ something ~ in slaanesh kind of worthwhile. Daemonettes are in a really rough place; they don't suck enough to be likely to go down to 6 (and I think GW likes the mono 7 theme) but they really have nothing to make them better or different than bloodletters. I think if quicksilver swiftness were changed to +3" movement instead of the current mechanic which basically does nothing, we'd see at least something for them.

oh they are just learn how play them...if you insist play slaanesh then is not demon problem is your... i play demons since the codex release (and i play ONLY demons in competitive) and i never made worse than 3rd place (and i play in ETC so not in my garage with my 10yo friends )with them so is not codex demon, is the player who need to find better list/learn how play them at best, of course they arent IG or eldar soup but they are competitive.

Ah, I forgot this part of this thread. It's all coming back to me.

Yes bloodletters are better with math. Daemon princes too.

Still totally running my bloodthirsters because they are only SLIGHLY weaker now and have a 100x sexier sculpt

 blackmage wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Yeah I agree. There's a bunch of people on this thread myself included that tend to frame everything in terms of competitive play so that's where I'm coming from. Usable, if not quite competitive, is not a bad thing.

fact is.... in casual games no matter how much a unit cost or how it performs, is not a thing that one should care when play that kind of games, when you start talk about PERFORMANCES mean ur interested in something more, if not why care if a Bt cost 300+ points and do nothing? isn't a casual game for fun where you play what you like regardless of performances? here most state "im not a competitive player" but then bother why a model isn't point wise... no sense, when i play casual games i play what i like more not what perform better, if i love a model who care if it' worthless?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drakerocket wrote:
I can see your perspective as well. Daemons aren't competitive, so we need more things that fall into competitive. As someone who favors Slaanesh, 150 point KoS feels like a blessing because it makes ~ something ~ in slaanesh kind of worthwhile. Daemonettes are in a really rough place; they don't suck enough to be likely to go down to 6 (and I think GW likes the mono 7 theme) but they really have nothing to make them better or different than bloodletters. I think if quicksilver swiftness were changed to +3" movement instead of the current mechanic which basically does nothing, we'd see at least something for them.

oh they are just learn how play them...if you insist play slaanesh then is not demon problem is your... i play demons since the codex release (and i play ONLY demons in competitive) and i never made worse than 3rd place (and i play in ETC so not in my garage with my 10yo friends )with them so is not codex demon, is the player who need to find better list/learn how play them at best, of course they arent IG or eldar soup but they are competitive.

That's not how it works. Even in casual play you realize differences between units. There are hardly "unplayable" units in casual play and it's usually total nonsense when people on dakka rate sth. as unplayable (aside from Titans and that suff that literally is "unplayable" in the usual 2000points games). And you can also see in casual play that some things work better than others. Yes, I do bring my plague hulk but when I do I know I have to bring something else that counters the fact that the Hulk is overcosted and won't do much in the game but soak damage like a boss. And a casual player also doesn't want his beloved units to "not do anything" in the game. Though usually that doesn't happen in casual play. If you follow dakka, everyone brings the shootiest list with guard/eldar/knights/Cpt. smash at the same time and will kill half your army in the first round if you bring just one unit that is not considered omg op. I don't know how that even works but that's what the tournament brigade describes. Either way "learn to play" is not a useful argument. I could tell everyone on dakka who says Plague Marines are too expensive "learn to play, I'm always winning with them, they're my best troop choice by far", but obviousely metas differ. Someone who plays ITC or ETC uses a specific kind of houserules for example that can drastically change the outcome.

You're engaging in futility. I stopped bothering with this thread months ago due to "contributions".

At least Rdv1 is objectively intelligent, even if he doesn't recognize the tone of his responses, but you're legitimately not going to gain substance there.

"im good get better"

There's your tl;dr

learn play is basic, you can play the best list ever and still be get your nuts kicked, or you can play a good list but skilled playing it and you seriously kick butts.
@Cephalobeard: if you dont bother since months about this thread wonder why you still posting here... stop do it and dont read if you find contributions are poor dont you think?Thank you.
I bring here my direct experience about competitve demon lists/play., i dont care of casual i always said that, im sorry if they destroyed your Tz demons playability.

 Zid wrote:
At 255 i will be running a double GUO list i reckon. Theyre hard to kill combined with the excellent strats, and i think they could work extremely well combined with a double gat knight

I'm interested in this too...
What does it mean "base cost"?
And what about Rotigus?

Snip

Would Daemonettes be too good at 6pts ? because at 7pts they have absolutely no hope of competing with Bloodletters in a none mono themed list.

Though perhaps the daemon of slaanesh trait doesn't help I've had games where it does absolutely nothing. (i'm not that good i don't really play at a high level so if i'm wrong about this please let me know)