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 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Nice work with a fluffy list labmouse! What would you change if you did it again?

Based upon the current meta, people are bringing tools to kill large vehicles. One of my opponents had 3 venerable land raiders, which were pumping out 12 LC shots hitting on a 2+ every turn. My knight lasted 2 turns, then the GUO went up in turn 3. The biggies just can't face firepower of that magnitude. In other matches, my opponents were hitting me with lots of melta shots, D cannon shots, etc....

I've got 7 nurgle heralds, so I'm going to try a nurgle herald spam build. Their range is limited (18" + 5" move + d6" advance) but in a meta full of super heavies dishing out 14-16 mortal wounds a turn (with the DP) could really help. It's kind of like the tzeentch herald spam build, but the nurgle ones are a bit cheaper than tzeentch heralds on disks (clocking in at 70 points each).

I'm going to look into death guard -- or even just chaos CSM period. Honestly I'm tempted on fielding a bunch of CSM or Death Guard to move forward and take objectives and shoot things. Given that the new death guard models are 15 bucks for 3 of them, I'll probably go that route just because they are fairly cheap to get.

Since I'll have some spare points, I'm going to add some poxwalkers. Again, they are the new 'getting started kits' for cheap prices. I have 20 of them now, and I'll paint them up and throw them out for objective campers. They are not as tough, or as killy as plague bearers, but don't ever fail morale tests -- which can be really handy.

Funny enough, I'm of the opinion the numerous characters and screening units is a wonderful counter to low model count super heavies.

They're limited to only attacking the chaff, meanwhile you earn 2-3 Turns of smiting them before they can even hope to hit a worthwhile target.

Nurgle Herald's, Poxwalkers, etc seem plenty viable against them as well.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 anticitizen013 wrote:
I love the nebula-esque effect on the wings of the LoC! Great job!

Agreed. It's really tight.

It really is. I had seen pictures of your army but couldn't appreciate the paint job. Green looks awesome on Tzeentch indeed, I will try to add some details on my upcoming conversions.

 ochobits wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 anticitizen013 wrote:
I love the nebula-esque effect on the wings of the LoC! Great job!

Agreed. It's really tight.

It really is. I had seen pictures of your army but couldn't appreciate the paint job. Green looks awesome on Tzeentch indeed, I will try to add some details on my upcoming conversions.

Thanks, guys! I'm excited to get them all finished. Firm believer in finding the army you love, then making it as competitive as possible.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Thanks, guys! I'm excited to get them all finished. Firm believer in finding the army you love, then making it as competitive as possible.

This.
Most players I know are always chasing the FotM instead of mastering an army. I used to as well.

There are good reasons to master an army instead of chasing the FotM.
* You will have a better paintjob, as you're not constantly painting new models.
* You will learn the subtle moves of your army
* You learn what your units are good at, and how to deal with specific counters.
* It's cheaper on the pocketbook

You might need to make some minor changes to make your army competitive, but rarely will you need to scrap the entire thing.
Master what you have. Get really, really good at it. Grow your army over time.
Don't chase the FotM.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Thanks, guys! I'm excited to get them all finished. Firm believer in finding the army you love, then making it as competitive as possible.

This.
Most players I know are always chasing the FotM instead of mastering an army. I used to as well.

There are good reasons to master an army instead of chasing the FotM.
* You will have a better paintjob, as you're not constantly painting new models.
* You will learn the subtle moves of your army
* You learn what your units are good at, and how to deal with specific counters.
* It's cheaper on the pocketbook

You might need to make some minor changes to make your army competitive, but rarely will you need to scrap the entire thing.
Master what you have. Get really, really good at it. Grow your army over time.
Don't chase the FotM.

This is great advice. Throughout the years I have collected many different armies but always went back to Chaos. I never really focused on one specific thing, so I have amassed quite a lot of stuff. Now I have been focused on my Khorne army and its going awesome. I really can't wait until I finish my main 1500 pt force so I can work on my themed Daemon Engine build. That list is as follows:

2 Chaos Lords with Jump Packs and Power Axes
3x 3 Nurglings bases (I am using burning skulls in their stead to fit with the theme... DOOM style!)
Kytan Ravager
2 Decimators with Soulburner Petards
2 Blood Slaughterers
2 Maulerfiends

Not the most competitive, but it will certainly be fun! Fast moving and deadly in close combat.

@labmouse42 Post more things with good formating. It's my fav thing to read in this thread.

Here's a, rather big, tournament winning list:
3DP
Magnus
3 Heldrakes
Changeling
Herald
Brims/blues

Seems simple enough

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@labmouse42 Post more things with good formating. It's my fav thing to read in this thread.

Here's a, rather big, tournament winning list:
3DP
Magnus
3 Heldrakes
Changeling
Herald
Brims/blues

Seems simple enough

which lists he faced?

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@labmouse42 Post more things with good formating. It's my fav thing to read in this thread.

Here's a, rather big, tournament winning list:
3DP
Magnus
3 Heldrakes
Changeling
Herald
Brims/blues

Seems simple enough

which lists he faced?

Dark Angels TAC list
Adeptus Custodes Venerable Land Raider girlyman, guard squad
Adeptus Astartes (no list)
Necrons TAC
Conscript, Manticore, Taurox prime, Shadowsword

strange he is using helldrakes

5(kinda crushing) wins no losses. Turns out a 1000 pts charging you turn 1 is hard to deal with :p Then another 600 pts charging you turn 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also good for me since I bought 2 of them by accident
Good thing they look really cool for the price and apparently are amazing in-game(as opposed to "good" like I thought)

btw i saw around ETC lists all demons played whole bunch of brims and lot of not targettable characters 7-8 heralds/Dp a few added Magnus (seems like they dont like have it as "easy target"), then they had 6+ exalted, seems like that is the most viable and solid list and no one played helldrakes.

 blackmage wrote:
strange he is using helldrakes

You don't like them? They seem like a really good option for jumping on the nastiest enemy shooters quickly.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Have you tried Skull Cannons? They look good on paper.

I don't know, that measly -1AP kinda ruins them. What's the theoretical ideal target for a low shot count, high str, low ap, low wd weapon? I know it's one of the few shooters (Khorne) daemons have, but it feels like at that point you're cutting off your nose to spite your face by not taking CSM fire support instead.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've not tried Khorne yet. I only have 6 bloodcrushers and 30 bloodletters. If I had more of a real force I would try it.

As the owner of precisely that number of 'crushers and 'letters, plus Bloodthirster, Soul grinder, Demon Prince, and 2xbloodthrone/skull cannon, I'm trying to work out possibilities for pure Khorne myself. I really want to include Skarbrand because his extra attacks and no fall back rule seems capable of opening up some really nasty shenanigans, but he has his drawbacks and is obviously very expensive too. It's hard not to look at CSM support.

I'm gonna use cheap troops to screen characters as well. Playing vs Thousand Sons on Thursday, and I know he is taking Magnus, Ahriman, 2 units of Rubricae and 1 unit of Scarab Occult plus 2 sorcerers.

Spamming Smite is not an option on this scenario - he would deny most of them - so I am bringing a Hellbrute with multi-meltas and missile launcher, plus a unit of termies with combi-meltas. I will try to surround my characters with horrors and cultists and shoot the hell out of Magnus before he can access the valuable units.

Any advice about how to deploy and mantain unit coherence avoiding Magnus to kill an entire unit a turn?

if you play 8-9 characters and 6-7 exalted (plus 12 units of horrors) he cant deny any smite you will cast and anyway you have a nice amount of firepower to cripple him down. 4 Dp 4 heralds 2 slaanesh (for the shynpony of pain power) 2 Tz om chariot and changeling, +7 exalted this is my actual base, pretty solid. With 100+ horrors if you deply anything inside them, seldom Magnus will have a interesting target to charge and 7 exalted gives him troubles, 4 Dp's can seriously damage him as well.

 blackmage wrote:
if you play 8-9 characters and 6-7 exalted (plus 12 units of horrors) he cant deny any smite you will cast and anyway you have a nice amount of firepower to cripple him down. 4 Dp 4 heralds 2 slaanesh (for the shynpony of pain power) 2 Tz om chariot and changeling, +7 exalted this is my actual base, pretty solid. With 100+ horrors if you deply anything inside them, seldom Magnus will have a interesting target to charge and 7 exalted gives him troubles, 4 Dp's can seriously damage him as well.

That sounds good, but I don't own (yet) that many Exalted or horrors. I must rely on 30 horrors + 20 cultist to surround my characters, the Hellbrute and the termies and to avoid Magnus charge them in combat. I guess that if I don't leave enough space for Magnus' base he can't land between my lines, right? That is gonna be my strategy: let him destroy the cultists and the horrors while I concentrate as much firepower, Smite and flames as I can on him until he dies.

KingGhidra wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
strange he is using helldrakes

You don't like them? They seem like a really good option for jumping on the nastiest enemy shooters quickly.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Have you tried Skull Cannons? They look good on paper.

I don't know, that measly -1AP kinda ruins them. What's the theoretical ideal target for a low shot count, high str, low ap, low wd weapon? I know it's one of the few shooters (Khorne) daemons have, but it feels like at that point you're cutting off your nose to spite your face by not taking CSM fire support instead.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've not tried Khorne yet. I only have 6 bloodcrushers and 30 bloodletters. If I had more of a real force I would try it.

As the owner of precisely that number of 'crushers and 'letters, plus Bloodthirster, Soul grinder, Demon Prince, and 2xbloodthrone/skull cannon, I'm trying to work out possibilities for pure Khorne myself. I really want to include Skarbrand because his extra attacks and no fall back rule seems capable of opening up some really nasty shenanigans, but he has his drawbacks and is obviously very expensive too. It's hard not to look at CSM support.

I think it helps to throw in some blood slaughterer or another couple distraction pieces. I also wouldn't March my bloodletters in but summon them once the opponent has started to get close

@blackmage Can you make a good Khorne list with the restriction of "it must have the DAEMON keyword"? So you can take heldrakes, obliterators, etc

The problem I see with pure Khorne Daemon lists is needing Bloodletters as troops. I'm not convinced that they are very good. If they can make it to melee they will wreck face, but they are very squishy, making it harder to survive to reach combat. Of course, one way around this would be to play a different detachment type that doesn't need troops. I'm also not convinced entirely that Flesh Hounds are bad. They did get a nerf compared to 7th edition, but one thing I've seen a lot of people overlook is the fact that they can attempt to deny a psychic power every turn. I might just run 3 small squads in every list for just that reason. That and their attacks are AP-1, meaning they can be a credible threat to even more stuff than before. Perhaps run a Juggerherald next to them to make them even more deadly.

I'd accept some help from other gods: like brimstones for example :p

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@blackmage Can you make a good Khorne list with the restriction of "it must have the DAEMON keyword"? So you can take heldrakes, obliterators, etc

you could use nurglings/plaguebearers as troop or brims (they are awesome control objectives) as you said, the rest run a whole Korne aggressive list, couple of Dp's couple of maulefriends/helldrakes and i would run flesh hounds and bloodcrushers, the only way to get in Close combat is overload ur opponent make him do some mistakes and slap his face, if you can play a massive assault list you could also try a BT.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem I see with pure Khorne Daemon lists is needing Bloodletters as troops. I'm not convinced that they are very good. If they can make it to melee they will wreck face, but they are very squishy, making it harder to survive to reach combat. Of course, one way around this would be to play a different detachment type that doesn't need troops. I'm also not convinced entirely that Flesh Hounds are bad. They did get a nerf compared to 7th edition, but one thing I've seen a lot of people overlook is the fact that they can attempt to deny a psychic power every turn. I might just run 3 small squads in every list for just that reason. That and their attacks are AP-1, meaning they can be a credible threat to even more stuff than before. Perhaps run a Juggerherald next to them to make them even more deadly.

You can also start with cultists if you want to stay 'thematic' for khorne.

Another idea is to summon the bloodletters. It does not work until your character is stuck in assault, or if you are close enough to get the charge phase off without needing a movement phase. You can also use a unaligned chaos sorcerer on a bike who can cast warptime on himself to move up then summon. Once you have the 30 bloodletters summoned, with a banner and a command point reroll they have a very good chance of making it into assault.

was lookig at nanavati's list there
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Nick-Nanavati-Chaos-Daemons.pdf

wonder why he used 4 bloated drones, maybe something against fliers spam?

I think it also has to do with being a great screen for all those exalted flamers

Well he has 120 brimstone For that too but yes good Point can be

Fatey vs Magnus Comparison
This post is a detailed comparison between Fateweaver and Magnus the Red.

Battlefield Role
Both units are designed to give long range support through psychic powers and some strong assault capabilities. In a perfect world, both units would buff equally, but just in slightly different roles.
Magnus is a LoW, where Fateweaver is a HQ. In events where you are not allowed to bring a LoW, Fatey wins by default.
Magnus is 15 more points than Fateweaver, which is a marginal difference at their point costs -- making them nearly identical.

Buffs
Magnus grants the ability to reroll 1s to hit for Thousand Sons units within 9" -- which is a larger bubble than most units. Magnus also lets units reroll 1's for failed invuln saves. Anyone who remembers 7th edition Screamerstars knows how abusive this can get the better the save is. For Magnus, it means that he is making his invuln rolls ~58% of the time.

In comparison, Fatey gives all daemons of Tzeentch a 10 leadership for purposes of Morale tests. This is useful, but not game breaking. It means 3 less brimstone horrors will be lost when then squad of being removed by the handful. If flamers and screamers were more effective, it might be more useful -- but at this current time it's not the best of abilities. It does give some benifit to daemons though, so if you are running all other units as Tzeentch daemons, Fatey gives something out where Magnus only gives to other Thousand Sons.

The area of Magnus' bubble is 254.47" where Fateweavers (and most other buffing characters) is 113.1. That extra 50" in radius means over double the overall coverage of buff effect!! This is why units like The Changling are so good. To make it even better, Magnus comes on large base, further increasing his buff range.
If Fatey is your warlord, he provides 1-3 extra command points. This is better than a poke in the eye.

Mobility
Fatey moves at 12" per turn, degrading down to 6" per turn. In comparison, Magnus moves at 16" and degrades to 12". Magnus is clearly better here, not only because he starts out faster -- but his total degrading profile is only 3/4 of his full profile in speed. Fatey drops to 1/2.
Both units fly so in other respects are the same.

Durability
Fatey at least as a 4++ save now. He comes with 16 wounds as well, making him take a long time to kill. If you are using the old fateweaver model, he's a bit easier to hide than Magnus.
Magnus has a 18 wounds, a 4++ with a reroll of 1s, and a 3+ save on top of that. Hands down, Magnus is more durable.

Psychic Output
Magnus smites for d6. Where most psykers get the bonus smite on a 11 or 12, Magnus gets the bonus smite on a 10+. Magnus starts with a +1 to the roll, so nearly half the of time, Magnus is smiting for 2d6 damage. This is huge, meaning that Magnus will either be doing ~3.5 damage or ~7 damage on each round, compared to the average damage of 2 for a normal psyker.
Magnus also can use Infernal gaze on a target for another 1.5 mortal wounds.
Magnus can also use warptime on himself to dramatically increase his movement speed. He can warptime himself on turn one to move 16", then move another 16" during the movement phase, then assault on turn one. Without bubble wrap or extreme ranges unit is safe from a turn one Magnus charge.

Fateweaver is no slouch in this area either -- though he is not as much of a damage monster as Magnus. His smite only goes to d6 on a roll of a 9+. It does have a range of 36", but should not be used that often. Given his movement, Fatey will usually be fine smiting closer.
Fatey's other powers are nice too. Boon of Change can be used to boost his damage output. He can use Bolt of Change to put another D3 mortal wounds on a target. Treason of Tzeentch is great fun and getting the cast off on a 6+ is hilarious.

Melee Output
Fatey starts off with 5 attacks, STR 8, -3 AP, d6 damage hitting on a 3+. That's not bad at all, and will do a number against most targets.
Magnus hits 35/36 of time, for STR 16, -4 AP and 3 damage. Magnus starts with 7 attacks.
Magnus is the clear winner here. To make it even better, Magnus never degrades past 5 attacks, where fateweaver loses 80% of his combat effectivness with max degraded.

Summary
GW screwed the pooch on this one. Magnus is clearly better than Fateweaver in nearly every comparison.
The level is 'better' only increases with 1k sons nearby -- but even if just looking for a general beatstick, Magnus is off the charts good. Magnus is like combining a LoC and a Bloothirster of Insensate Rage into one package!
There are times you will want to take Fateweaver instead.....for example, if you are playing a tourney that only allows a patrol to be brought so no LoW allowed. That's about it......in every other case you will want to take Magnus.

Good summary.
Magnus actually starts with a +2 to cast.

I feel like the bonus command points and long range smite should give fatey some utility, but he should still be a lot less points to be comparable.

I have a Kairos and 2 LoC. I don't see myself using them at all. Their points are absolutely bonkers for just how little they do. I can do about the same damage as 1 LoC for 2 Exalted Flamers, and spend a third the points, nearly.

I can only hope they'll be fixing them when our codex comes, because until then Magnus will reign supreme, if you bother using a big guy.

I'd like a comparison between a LoC, Fateweaver and a DP personally. I knew all along that comparing Magnus and Fateweaver was like comparing crap to gold.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'd like a comparison between a LoC, Fateweaver and a DP personally. I knew all along that comparing Magnus and Fateweaver was like comparing crap to gold.

A Daemon Prince is half the wounds and half the cost. But comparing two Daemon Princes to a Lord of Change... Well, I think the Princes are the obvious answer.