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 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Stuxseth wrote:
What do you think of Be'lakor?
Some people find him OP, but for me he seems a bit weird...

I can't imagine a world where this sentiment is correct.

He's a Daemon unit who can't cast any of his spells on Daemons. That's about all you need to know. Pack it up, move on to the next model.

He is an auto-include for me in a pure Daemons list. I have played him since the beginning of 8th as my warlord.

Access to Death Hex alone gives him value as a psyker as well as an additional Smite. Taking away Magnus' (not easy, but still a chance), Mortarion's, or the enemy warlord invul save is pure gold. He can also still cast Infernal Gaze and Gift of Chaos too.

His reroll for saves makes him more durable than it seems. I have had him rapid fired by 20 man CSM and Necron Warriors units and live. When I first was using him I gave him the warlord trait of 6+ feel no pain. Now I give him the extra attack when charging.

His penalty to leadership has come in handy as well as he will almost always kill 5-7 things in an assault . Not so handy vs. conscript spam, but fantastic vs. MEQ and 2+ saves.

Is he OMGWTFBBQ? Nope. But he makes his points back for me every game. Especially if there is decent LOS blocking terrain on the table and he doesn't have to rely on a Flamers of Tzeentch screen to slow him down.

I didn't say he was terrible, he just isn't worth what he costs. Take a Daemon Prince for 180 and end up with a similar result for less points.

Also, I unfortunately also cannot relate to using Flamers to screen, as Flamers themselves also aren't too great, so unless you mean Exalteds I have no real comment beyond that.

Again, you're welcome to use the model to your heart's content, but he isn't a very great choice. Awful? No, that's Lords of Change, Karios, Screamers, etc. Great? Also no.

 lindsay40k wrote:
He’s a Daemon unit with full re-rolls on his 4++. Combined with ability to hid as a CHARACTER, that’s nearly Greater Daemon endurance.

He’s got a 6” reroll 1’s to hit bubble for all DAEMON units. That’s distinctive.

He’s got six S7 AP5 D3 attack’s that hit on a 2+. That’s Bloodthirster-level output, with no deterioration.

He might only have access to buff spells that affect HA, but he also has access to a debuff spell that takes down invulnerable saves and two damage spells that pick their target.

That’s not terrible at all.

And then you see how expensive he is and realise he's terrible.

I love how people list stats and special rules but completelly forget the cost.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
And then you see how expensive he is and realise he's terrible.

I love how people list of stats and special rules but completelly forget the cost.

It's 240 points compared to 180 points, correct?

I kind of agree with that you are saying. The Shadow Form reroll is actually a pretty good benefit, but the better save on the DP means he's going to have to roll fewer times in the first place. The fact Be'Lakor can take 2 psychic powers is great, it means you could do Death Hex and WarpTime. But maybe one of those is enough.

What makes me think Be'Lakor is better for some armies is the fact his reroll aura applies to all units, not just a single Mark. Rerolls are important this edition and I would pay more for that ability.

Just not 60 points more, that's a lot of Brimstones.

And not with fewer wounds. Not that the wound make all the difference in the world, but I could see using Be'Lakor more against Heavy Infantry, who would be more likely to have weapons that cause multiple wounds.

 D6Damager wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Stuxseth wrote:
What do you think of Be'lakor?
Some people find him OP, but for me he seems a bit weird...

I can't imagine a world where this sentiment is correct.

He's a Daemon unit who can't cast any of his spells on Daemons. That's about all you need to know. Pack it up, move on to the next model.

He is an auto-include for me in a pure Daemons list. I have played him since the beginning of 8th as my warlord.

Access to Death Hex alone gives him value as a psyker as well as an additional Smite. Taking away Magnus' (not easy, but still a chance), Mortarion's, or the enemy warlord invul save is pure gold. He can also still cast Infernal Gaze and Gift of Chaos too.

His reroll for saves makes him more durable than it seems. I have had him rapid fired by 20 man CSM and Necron Warriors units and live. When I first was using him I gave him the warlord trait of 6+ feel no pain. Now I give him the extra attack when charging.

His penalty to leadership has come in handy as well as he will almost always kill 5-7 things in an assault . Not so handy vs. conscript spam, but fantastic vs. MEQ and 2+ saves.

Is he OMGWTFBBQ? Nope. But he makes his points back for me every game. Especially if there is decent LOS blocking terrain on the table and he doesn't have to rely on a Flamers of Tzeentch screen to slow him down.

I get what you are saying about his value, and I certainly thought he was good (without testing him). Oddly enough it's actually your arguement FOR how good he is that makes me believe the opposite, and that he really only has a niche role. You're taking 240 points for essentially a daemon prince, and then screening it with expensive flamers. I've been on the fence about flamers, my problem with them being that I can't reliably get them into range without them eating fire. I can't imagine WANTING to screen with an expensive unit like flamers honestly. You're spending 300-500 points on something I'm getting done for around 200 with regular daemon princes and some brimstones or nurglings.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I didn't say he was terrible, he just isn't worth what he costs. Take a Daemon Prince for 180 and end up with a similar result for less points.

Also, I unfortunately also cannot relate to using Flamers to screen, as Flamers themselves also aren't too great, so unless you mean Exalteds I have no real comment beyond that.

Again, you're welcome to use the model to your heart's content, but he isn't a very great choice. Awful? No, that's Lords of Change, Karios, Screamers, etc. Great? Also no.

This is why I'm sharing my experiences as most people are caught up in Brimstone spam as it is tournament proven.

I take Belakor with 3 regular daemon princes of Tzeentch in a supreme command detachment. He does significantly more damage than a normal prince in addition to his other abilities. I think his points are balanced.

Belakor goes in a vanguard detachment with three units of 6 Flamers of Tzeentch, 3 Exalted Flamers, and the Changeling. From experience I can tell you 18d6 auto hitting pistols(up to 108 shots) on models with a 12" fly keyword wrecks infantry and light vehicles/flyers. They have a small footprint and can easily get to where they need to be. The 4++, 2 wounds each and Changeling support means they stick around longer than expected and remain a threat. The flamers of tzeentch cannot be ignored.

The princes and Belakor are cleanup and smite spam for tougher targets. Brimstones to fill points, hold objectives, act as additional character screens, and throw the occasional smite.

You're right to point out that this is anecdotal evidence, but IMO they are the best units in a pure daemons list (along with brimstones). I've had a lot of success with "Belakor & Friends" in my meta maybe it will work for somebody else too in their meta.

I also agree that Kairos, LoC & Screamers are poor choices.

As an alternative screen to flamers could seekers work? While they aren't particularly durable they can get into combat quickly with their 16" + 3d6" threat radius. Also means they wouldn't be slowing down Be'lakor by 2".

Local store has decided to test out a "no forgeworld" policy for a little while. While my Alpha Legion Kharybdis I recently bought and painted weeps, I'm more than happy to bust out this monstrosity and take it for a spin.

Double Battalion, Supreme Command. Pure Tzeentch Daemons.

10 Heralds (one missing, 4 unpainted) with Staves, Magnus, Changeling, 6 Exalted Flamers, 60 Horrors w/ Split.

Welcome to smite town, population obnoxious.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Local store has decided to test out a "no forgeworld" policy for a little while. While my Alpha Legion Kharybdis I recently bought and painted weeps, I'm more than happy to bust out this monstrosity and take it for a spin.

Double Battalion, Supreme Command. Pure Tzeentch Daemons.

10 Heralds (one missing, 4 unpainted) with Staves, Magnus, Changeling, 6 Exalted Flamers, 60 Horrors w/ Split.

Welcome to smite town, population obnoxious.

I like this setup. Out of curiosity, if forgeworld rules were allowed would you be running malefic lords instead? I've had trouble finding room for heralds in my army when those things are only 30pts and I've got 5 painted up.

Well ofc he would. Malefic lords will probably be costed 60+ after the pts change. At 30, they're a steal

For small local events? I wouldn't spam them as heavily, no. For a GT or Major? Absolutely I'd be using 8+ Malefic Lords.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well ofc he would. Malefic lords will probably be costed 60+ after the pts change. At 30, they're a steal

I see them going up maybe, but 60 points would make them unused in pretty much any list.

Trancefate wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well ofc he would. Malefic lords will probably be costed 60+ after the pts change. At 30, they're a steal

I see them going up maybe, but 60 points would make them unused in pretty much any list.

Oh, so you mean in line with the other nerfs then :p

I very much doubt they'll go above 45. Spiritseers are now 45 and have a far better power set than maelific lords as well as having a buff. It would be hard to see a maelific lord costing over a spiritseer. I think 40 is the most likely number.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Local store has decided to test out a "no forgeworld" policy for a little while. While my Alpha Legion Kharybdis I recently bought and painted weeps, I'm more than happy to bust out this monstrosity and take it for a spin.

Double Battalion, Supreme Command. Pure Tzeentch Daemons.

10 Heralds (one missing, 4 unpainted) with Staves, Magnus, Changeling, 6 Exalted Flamers, 60 Horrors w/ Split.

Welcome to smite town, population obnoxious.

Would love to see you post a battle report! Especially with pics showing off how you like to play your screens/capping objectives

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well ofc he would. Malefic lords will probably be costed 60+ after the pts change. At 30, they're a steal

Any idea when point increase happening? Cause as far as I know they JUST released an FAQ/errata on the fw they are in 1-2 weeks ago and weren't touched at all.


Also if they get increased it'll be to 40 tops or you'll never see them in lists again.

No, he has no idea. As it stands it'll either happen at ITCs hands (which they should never have the power to do) or when Chapter approved is released (likely), OR, by some crazy happening Forgeworld updates their models which very rarely happens.

Even at 40pt they are a steal. If they perils they basically become daemon princes.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Even at 40pt they are a steal. If they perils they basically become daemon princes.

It's gonna be a 6" move model that you were already keeping probably 12-18'' away, with 1-2 toughness 4 wounds left. I've played 5 of them in a supremecommand detachment in about 10 games or so and haven't had one hulk out and hit something yet, that is a fun flavor gimmick at best.

I have mine Hulk out 1-2 times a game when I bring 5+, however they've never actually been in combat. It's a pointless ability that feels fluffy.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I have mine Hulk out 1-2 times a game when I bring 5+, however they've never actually been in combat. It's a pointless ability that feels fluffy.

Yeah I mean, even if it was a good ability it would be useless because the odds of perils are 1/18 (right?). That isn't something you can exactly build a strategy around.

I think the fact that Tzeentch Heralds are in the realm of "pretty good" despite also doing basically nothing other than Smite (their spell list is even worse than the R&H one and the +1 S buff is useless to anything Tzeentch wants to run) is really telling of how undercosted malefic lords are.

Isn’t Herald buff at least useful on a Daemon Prince? Taking him up a Strength band can make a difference when trying to cut open a tank. It’s not bad on a soup list with Possessed, either; Boon may well be worth a shot for the chance to give them +1A, especially if Smite’s not got a worthy target.

I was about to say "the daemon prince is already at S9 with Diabolic Strength" but then I remembered which thread I'm in. Okay, so that's one chaos daemons model that benefits from the HoT aura. You're still paying 83 points with the Staff of Change for what is essentially a smite bot in most circumstances, and that 83 points was pretty good until we collectively realized the malefic lord does the same thing for 30.

From whispers I'm hearing we're likely going to see a cap to the number of Smites that can even be cast after chapter approved, so, who knows where Daemons are going to end up power wise after the next few months. Especially Tzeentch, as they almost quite literally have nothing else.

That'd be seriously killer to psychic armies and make my Aspiring Sorcerers complete dead weight rather than "mostly" dead weight like they are now. They'd have to do something else to compensate for us running out of spells to cast.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
From whispers I'm hearing we're likely going to see a cap to the number of Smites that can even be cast after chapter approved, so, who knows where Daemons are going to end up power wise after the next few months. Especially Tzeentch, as they almost quite literally have nothing else.

I would be infuriated, the psyker phase is literally my favorite part of the game (I looved 7th Ed. Warp charges). Smite is literally the only thing you can do in a psyker heavy army, I understand for some armies paykers are excellent support characters, but not every army is supposed to be the same. If I can't have a psyker army I'mma just put my gak up on eBay and switch hobbies.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
From whispers I'm hearing we're likely going to see a cap to the number of Smites that can even be cast after chapter approved, so, who knows where Daemons are going to end up power wise after the next few months. Especially Tzeentch, as they almost quite literally have nothing else.

If they truly have a problem on smite this is the way they would tackle it, not trying to nerf psyker units one at a time. I expect heralds to get a significant increase in utility when our codex drops. Otherwise they are overcosted..... That being said I personally run one on a burning chariot or disk behind 5 tzeentch daemon princes, it does a good job of making them rend tanks like no ones business.

I honestly feel like smite was given to psykers as a bandaid for the lack of codexes and small spell lists. They probably didn't even plan on working it like they did until they realized how spam interactions with certain spells worked and had to limit us to 1 each after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about daemon princes? barring their buff aura, which do you like the most? The tzeentch benefit seems the best but the only psychic is smite as all 3 of tzeentch spells are trash.

Nurgle has 3 good spells, slaneesh has 2, khorne could be nice on charge.

I'm running a tzeentch daemon list w/ lots of princes (five) and wondering if i should run all of them as tzeentch or not.

Side note, with disgustingly resilient and similar abilities, if I take a 6 damage shot and fail save (say, a lascannon) do I roll 6 dice?

@Trancefate yes, that is exactly how DR works

With regard to Daemon Princes, I have a Word Bearers - Daemons hybrid army, and my CSM winged Nurgle DP is doing nicely with the ability of a Herald to heal D3 wounds on him making him a decent Overwatch tank, I have not felt compelled to build another to get the synergies offered by other dieties. Hysterical Frenzy is great when it works, but it’s unreliability makes it more of a scarecrow spell than something you can build anything but a desperate strategy around, and I’ll usually take the safer output of Smite (which a Steed Herald is excellent at pricision aiming - I’ve won a game from this getting a Warlord kill) over that roulette wheel.

I do, however, plan to get a load of Tzeentch Possessed, and their synergy with a Disc or Chariot Herald and Changling will be nicely accompanied by a DP. Might just make them twenty-strong footsloggers.

I’ve heard whispers from playtesters that they’ll wind up being 50 points each once chapter approved drops. Malefic lords, that is. Which I think is appropriate. Still good to fill out FOC slots, but not so good that you want to take 15 of them. Because that is just a feelsbadman list