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So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

 knas wrote:
So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

It's most certainly a raw deal for the god of change, but you know?? i still think tzneetch is a pretty good spot?

It has 3 units that are al lviable and have good targets (horrors, Flamers, Exalted flamers), and a strong greater daemon in the form of the LoC. Spell wise i think it's hit or miss outside of the 2 i'd just strictly limit to the lord of change (infernal gate and bolt of change). the +1 to wound helps capitalize on those big 3 units, and the reroll spell could be an okay source of fake CP generation in a mono tzeentch list. I think if your are mixxing you probably won't have too much space for a 2nd herald to cast that spell.

I guess the idea of the loci is to provide defense against melee armies as tzeentch doesn't have any access to anti melee. Brimstones a an amazing bubble wrap still as they serve as cheap rode black for melee armies, but they become next to useless now if your opponent has any form of decent shooting.

Funny enough all of the above (the good and the bad). Might make tzeentch the most common chaos daemons. As any other list splashing will most likely take some tzeentch force as you're good to go with a herald and a few of the big 3. While the LoC makes a great chaos daemons warlord as a very durable center piece whose mortal wound damage make him good at suring up holes in a list.

mmimzie wrote:

 knas wrote:
So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

It's most certainly a raw deal for the god of change, but you know?? i still think tzneetch is a pretty good spot?

It has 3 units that are al lviable and have good targets (horrors, Flamers, Exalted flamers), and a strong greater daemon in the form of the LoC. Spell wise i think it's hit or miss outside of the 2 i'd just strictly limit to the lord of change (infernal gate and bolt of change). the +1 to wound helps capitalize on those big 3 units, and the reroll spell could be an okay source of fake CP generation in a mono tzeentch list. I think if your are mixxing you probably won't have too much space for a 2nd herald to cast that spell.

I guess the idea of the loci is to provide defense against melee armies as tzeentch doesn't have any access to anti melee. Brimstones a an amazing bubble wrap still as they serve as cheap rode black for melee armies, but they become next to useless now if your opponent has any form of decent shooting.

Funny enough all of the above (the good and the bad). Might make tzeentch the most common chaos daemons. As any other list splashing will most likely take some tzeentch force as you're good to go with a herald and a few of the big 3. While the LoC makes a great chaos daemons warlord as a very durable center piece whose mortal wound damage make him good at suring up holes in a list.

It's definitely misleading looking at just the loci and expecting them to be balanced across gods (since they affect so many different units), I just wish it would have been an ability that worked a bit more reliably. Tzeentch got a little less specialized than it was in the index where it was one of the top defensive choices with 4++,-1 to hit and super cheap unnerfed brimms. The new buffs in other areas make Tzeentch a bit more accessible and a bit more fun overall to play with and against so I like the codex fort he most part.

Really hoping people are right about the artifacts making the LoC viable too

Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.

wow. Why is he even there...

For the Loc
The artefact plus warlord trait who reduce dommage by one make him realy hard to kill. So He can make his points doing mortal wounds a long time.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.

wow. Why is he even there...

He’s not got Bile’s ability to not break purity? Wow. Disappoint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

orkswubwub wrote:
If A CSM Casts delightful agonies on an obliterator - the FNP is a 5+++ or a 6+++?

Why would it be 6+++? The wording of the Power is pretty clear that it’s a 5+++.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.

wow. Why is he even there...

1. His model is tiny and he can easily hide.
2. He has the only 'always on' Aura in-faction that modifies enemy leadership.
3. He benefits from the new Character targeting rules.
4. He hits a like a truck with -5ap and flat 3 dmg. (You can give him the warlord trait to get 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's for 21dmg. This will get through more often than not thanks to Death Hex).
5. He is more durable than a regular prince (without the relic) since he gets to reroll failed saves.
6. He is 2" faster than a regular daemon prince.
7. He brings Death Hex and Warptime to CDs without going out of faction or detachment.
8. The new stratagem lets him deepstrike.

I run him with a unit of 6 Flamers as a screen (12 wounds of T4 & 4++ that nobody wants to charge) casting Smite and Death Hex until he is in position to charge himself usually by turn 2.

Ah, so that's why he sees and at +40 pts will continue to see no competitive play. Cool.

 knas wrote:
So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

You've misinterpreted that, if it was done before re-rolls, and your opponent had re-roll all misses, then they would be able to re-roll. In your case, they would still be able to re-roll 1s because that 1 would be a fail to hit. Because it is done after re-rolls, it means your opponent can't re-roll missed hits due to the Tzeentch Loci.

If it were before re-rolls then the Tzeentch Loci would be beyond useless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

orkswubwub wrote:
If A CSM Casts delightful agonies on an obliterator - the FNP is a 5+++ or a 6+++?

is 5++

 mrhappyface wrote:

 knas wrote:
So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

You've misinterpreted that, if it was done before re-rolls, and your opponent had re-roll all misses, then they would be able to re-roll. In your case, they would still be able to re-roll 1s because that 1 would be a fail to hit. Because it is done after re-rolls, it means your opponent can't re-roll missed hits due to the Tzeentch Loci.

If it were before re-rolls then the Tzeentch Loci would be beyond useless.

i'm following your logic. Thats a decent enough reason. Though it could just as easily say those attacks count as misses and, can not be re-rolled.

Another bright note for the loci i think it gives room for some sort of melee tzeentch. WIth DPs, Screamers, LoCs, and maybe chariots??? Thats looking at it on the bright of possible side.

On this small bright note. The LoC is pretty okay with baleful sword, as it's the only model that benefits from all the boons, from boon of change. Seeing as how +1str brings him to STR 8 with the sword, +1 T brings him to T8, and +1 attack is just always gravy. Just a small side thought. Not sure of a melee focused tzeentch is all that good as it doesn't jump out at me, but i haven't really sat down and gave it much thought.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 knas wrote:
So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

You've misinterpreted that, if it was done before re-rolls, and your opponent had re-roll all misses, then they would be able to re-roll. In your case, they would still be able to re-roll 1s because that 1 would be a fail to hit. Because it is done after re-rolls, it means your opponent can't re-roll missed hits due to the Tzeentch Loci.

If it were before re-rolls then the Tzeentch Loci would be beyond useless.

Ah I thought it made you discard the dice not just fail it.

 D6Damager wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.

wow. Why is he even there...

1. His model is tiny and he can easily hide.
2. He has the only 'always on' Aura in-faction that modifies enemy leadership.
3. He benefits from the new Character targeting rules.
4. He hits a like a truck with -5ap and flat 3 dmg. (You can give him the warlord trait to get 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's for 21dmg. This will get through more often than not thanks to Death Hex).
5. He is more durable than a regular prince (without the relic) since he gets to reroll failed saves.
6. He is 2" faster than a regular daemon prince.
7. He brings Death Hex and Warptime to CDs without going out of faction or detachment.
8. The new stratagem lets him deepstrike.

I run him with a unit of 6 Flamers as a screen (12 wounds of T4 & 4++ that nobody wants to charge) casting Smite and Death Hex until he is in position to charge himself usually by turn 2.

Yup. He may well be a tad overcosted, but seriously, don’t underestimate the utility of access to Death Hex. Tango with various Space Wolf lists and see.

Breaking monolatrism might be an issue in mono detachments, but on the other hand it means there’s no opportunity cost to having him lead a Spearhead of a Skull Cannon, Burning Chariot, and giant Chaos Spawn.

Incidentally, he’s lost Warptime, but then you need a HERETIC ASTARTES unit to cast it on anyway, whereupon you might as well add a Sorcerer/DP and this & that and make a LEGION Detachment of it.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.

wow. Why is he even there...

1. His model is tiny and he can easily hide.
2. He has the only 'always on' Aura in-faction that modifies enemy leadership.
3. He benefits from the new Character targeting rules.
4. He hits a like a truck with -5ap and flat 3 dmg. (You can give him the warlord trait to get 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's for 21dmg. This will get through more often than not thanks to Death Hex).
5. He is more durable than a regular prince (without the relic) since he gets to reroll failed saves.
6. He is 2" faster than a regular daemon prince.
7. He brings Death Hex and Warptime to CDs without going out of faction or detachment.
8. The new stratagem lets him deepstrike.

I run him with a unit of 6 Flamers as a screen (12 wounds of T4 & 4++ that nobody wants to charge) casting Smite and Death Hex until he is in position to charge himself usually by turn 2.

Yup. He may well be a tad overcosted, but seriously, don’t underestimate the utility of access to Death Hex. Tango with various Space Wolf lists and see.

Breaking monolatrism might be an issue in mono detachments, but on the other hand it means there’s no opportunity cost to having him lead a Spearhead of a Skull Cannon, Burning Chariot, and giant Chaos Spawn.

Incidentally, he’s lost Warptime, but then you need a HERETIC ASTARTES unit to cast it on anyway, whereupon you might as well add a Sorcerer/DP and this & that and make a LEGION Detachment of it.

I loved using Be'Lakor with my CSM Deamons units for Warp Time and the bubble buff, but losing Warp Time and the benefits of the Daemon codex will probably make me proxy it to a Daemon Prince now (although might be unfair considering the model size difference...).

So, I have 6 bases of the old metal Nurglings. Anyone know if the new ones are easy to break up and space out? It's gonna look wierd to have some bases with 4 Nurglings and some with 12+.

On the topic of Nurglings, are they our best screener unit?

Nurglings are taken for 2 things only - scout and troop filler. And since scout is invaluable - I take 2+ always.

Screen is still horrors or plaguebearers

I screened my last two games with 20 Flesh Hounds across my deployment zone. Mine are based on the larger round bases, so they spanned my entire edge. They easily catch all the incoming wounds and have enough speed to be an unavoidable threat. Also, I can push one edge or the other up to open the way for the next wave, or pull from one end or the other as they die. I also run a 10 man unit of Bloodletters directly behind them and in front of the characters just in case the Hounds are focused down.

I don't think this will be considered "optimal", but its working pretty well so far, especially in conjunction with the bomb to act as the anvil while the hounds + anything behind them are the hammer.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So, I have 6 bases of the old metal Nurglings. Anyone know if the new ones are easy to break up and space out? It's gonna look wierd to have some bases with 4 Nurglings and some with 12+.

On the topic of Nurglings, are they our best screener unit?

They are not easy to break up at all.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So, I have 6 bases of the old metal Nurglings. Anyone know if the new ones are easy to break up and space out? It's gonna look wierd to have some bases with 4 Nurglings and some with 12+.

On the topic of Nurglings, are they our best screener unit?

They are not easy to break up at all.

Yea, for the most part totally different concept to the previous Nurgling swarms:
- Salvage

Alright, looks like I should just add the loose ones onto the old bases to fill them out then. Thanks for the quick replies.

On a 5+ the wound is ignored, for a unit affected by delightful agonies.

*edit* oops, guess the page didn’t refresh. Thought I was replying to a recent comment.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nurglings are taken for 2 things only - scout and troop filler. And since scout is invaluable - I take 2+ always.

Screen is still horrors or plaguebearers

honestly thats not true anymore.

Nurglings i think are better than plaguebears when you buff both up to max.

Nurglings can be buffed with the piper for +1 attack, Poxbringer (herald) for +1 str, that same herald can give them +1 to wound, and then another poxbringer or GUO can give the target -1 toughness. Since the nurglings scout a unit of 9 can stretch accross the table so they can get a turn onie charge, and with the piper they can advance and charge meaning they will beable to really get into there even if they stretch out accross the table. Even more so whenb backed up by a GUO 2 units of 9 that stretch back to his aura can benefit from the bell. Durability wise the nurglings are just slightly less durable than the plague bearers against most attacks, and it isn't worth it for your opponent to put in lascannons and such to MAAAAybe kill a 4 wound base worth 18 pts. Against T3 you can get to 2+ to wound 5 attacks each, and 3+ to wound 5 attacks each. ALso bring the piper will help your GUO, and not plague bearers so there is a lot of syngery between those 3 or 4 models. again turn 1 charge with out needing to deep strike them <.< and they are troops give you lots of CP is goooood stuff, on top of any scouting/screenign they do they for the rest of your army.

Plaguebearers are less likely to get that turn one charge no matter how you place them on the table. They dont really benefit from the bell on the GUO. If you get down to 2+ to wound the reroll on the plague sword isnt' any better than that of what the nurglings get rerolling 1s. Once the plague bearer unit drops below 20 models (which means you only have to kill 10 at -1. They plagyue bearers are actually less durable than the nurglings against most forms of shooting.

Then when it comes to actually playing the game. I think after turn 1, most ofthe buffs like -1 toughness and +1 to wound you'll want aiding your GUO as he get waaaay more milage out of it than the plague bears will with thier no rend As other than fighting other daemons players those abilities that give you bonus damage aren't worth jack on models that have no AP, as most targets with multiple wounds have really nice armor saves you need to get past. As such doubing your damage and getting the extra damage on 6s with a GUO with bileblade or bileword, or even the locus on the plague flail will go ALOT futher on the GUO than you'll end up getting from a bunch of plague bearer attacks.

Lastly in mixed daemons the plaguebearers are way to expensive to buff up needing a ton of investment of low damage HQs that are trying to funnel buffs into the plague bears to realy see them being worth while. While on the other hand the nugling package of GUO/Poxbring/Piper will get you pretty much all the way home, and the GUO will also beable to benefit from all the models and buffs once the nurglings have cleared the field for him to get down to business.

As such in competive play i think you'll quickly see nurglings catching on in more ways than just lowly scouts, and might start phasing out plague bearers in favor of nurglings.

TLDR:
Plaguebearers lose -1 after 20 model and then become about as durable or less durable than your average nurgling base for screen.

Nurglings need Poxbringer/Piper/ GUO w/ bell to get the most out of them, and they can turn 1 charge

For the same thing Plaguebearers need Poxbringer/ Scrivener/ horticulus/ multiple summoned gnarl roots (each of which cost points btw), and needs at least a turn to make it into combat. maaaaybe two.

From as I get it, you can buy one to three Feculent Gnarlmaws for 50 each. And you must set them up on using the rules for their deployment.
Slimuxs ability says you can place a maw at the end of the movement phase, if your army contains one already and nowhere it is mentioned that
You should pay them in your list. Apart from the starting ones. Am I right here or...?

Breaking news from the world of ITC - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/733325.page#9779234

 Reecius wrote:
@andysonic1

Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.

I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.

The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.

orsonn wrote:

I loved using Be'Lakor with my CSM Deamons units for Warp Time and the bubble buff, but losing Warp Time and the benefits of the Daemon codex will probably make me proxy it to a Daemon Prince now (although might be unfair considering the model size difference...).

Eh, I wouldn't worry about the size difference, Be'lakor is larger than the old metal daemon prince.

 avedominusnox wrote:
From as I get it, you can buy one to three Feculent Gnarlmaws for 50 each. And you must set them up on using the rules for their deployment.
Slimuxs ability says you can place a maw at the end of the movement phase, if your army contains one already and nowhere it is mentioned that
You should pay them in your list. Apart from the starting ones. Am I right here or...?

fortifications are units. as per the FAQ in sudden death rules



and in the reinforcement points section it spells out:

"each time a unit is added to your army, you must first subtract the bnumber of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points"

and while after set up they aren't in your army via thier rules. to set them up they first most be in your army via horticulous's rules. as such each time you use his ability it will cost you 50 reinforcement points ontop of the 50 reinforcement points for having the first one set up in your army..

Also i do believe that each model cost 50 points as well so if you want to set up the 3 model unit thats 150pts, but i could be wrong on this.

reguardless that gets expensive fast, and is why i kind of dont rate plaguebearers.

 andysonic1 wrote:

Spoiler:

Breaking news from the world of ITC - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/733325.page#9779234

 Reecius wrote:
@andysonic1

Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.

I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.

The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Breaking news from the world of ITC - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/733325.page#9779234

 Reecius wrote:
@andysonic1

Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.

I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.

The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.

Eh, my dreams of deep striking 2 bloodthirsters and a squad of 30 bloodletters is still alive and kicking so I am all good lol.

But yeah, cross codex stratagem shenanigans make things harder to play test. Though if it does survive the faq I will be surprised that's for sure.

So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.

 mrhappyface wrote:
So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.

yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.