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That's about the only way they're going to sell that kit in large quantity. If they want it to sell like a unit, and not a terrain piece, it needs to be good. I think it's challenging enough to use based on not moving that I wouldn't call it broken or anything, but it is really excellent.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Frontline Gaming talking about the Daemons Codex changes:
Still listening to it, here's some comments from them I'm hearing:
1) Brimstones are still good.
2) Overall codex is very strong
3) Nurgle isn't slow \ weak anymore as long as you utilize your tools, namely the tree that allows them to advance and charge
4) Nurlge has a heavy reliance on support characters while the other gods don't really.
5) Seems to be a lot easier for Nurgle to get back dead units, even Drones.
6) GUO is a great force multiplier, even if he himself doesn't contribute in direct damage.
7) Bloodletter Bombs are going to be seen a lot.
8) They clearly say "You can use the deep strike stratagem on Daemon Faction units" while looking directly at the camera. This is as clear a message as they can give.
9) You can add the 3D6 banner to units in Deep Strike.
10) "Play your 25mm based Bloodletters as if they are on 32mm bases, it makes a big difference"
11) Deep Striking Flamers are nuts not. Screamers are great. "Tzeentch is a shooting army". "LoC with a Robe is super tanky".
12) "Slaan are the fastest". "Fiends are incredible".
13) "Bloodcrushers are great because they can deep strike".
14) "Every top tier army has to use CP to do their thing." "Daemons are CP starved, so focus in on one or two tactics, don't go in trying to do everything". "Blow all your CP first turn, you hit way harder than other armies".
15) "Skarbrand is amazing now". "More of a support unit now, less likely to charge in out of deep strike". "Skullreaver is insanely powerful on Daemon Prince". "Bloodthirsters still very expensive, D-Thirster now more worth it with the extra attack profile".
16) "Anticipate an FAQ. Some of the things people think they can do, they can't. Assume the Daemon stuff is for the Daemon Codex. Don't plan that you can do crazy stuff."
That's it in a nutshell.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/01/12 18:10:19
That's about the only way they're going to sell that kit in large quantity. If they want it to sell like a unit, and not a terrain piece, it needs to be good. I think it's challenging enough to use based on not moving that I wouldn't call it broken or anything, but it is really excellent.
This is all true, but i think it's very much hampered by the cost of the gnarl roots. I think the gnarl roots will be good, but you'll wanna be mostly nurgle or even mono nurgle to really use it well. Plague bearers need ALOT of points investment to get thier buffs up. I think once they do get thier buffs they are amazing, but as many of the buffs can effect multiple units it would be wise to go near mono nurgle to really get the best of it.
The other gods can be more peice meal. Khorne blood letters can get away on thier own, or with the help of a daemon prince to give them reroll 1s which all they need when they are all swarmed up. a bloodmaster (herald) can give them +str, but on the turn they charge that usualy won't matter against most targets.
Tzneeetch what ever you take a Changecaster (herald) will be great for the str buff usualy resulting in +1 to wound for most units against most targets, and the change caster can give a unit +1 to wound in the shooting phase. The LoC is arguably great on his own as warlord with relic as a durable center piece, and he can if also benefit from a changecaster as +1 str can get him to str 8 with sword which is a big break point. While the chancecaster can also throw out the reroll spell to help pump up your LoC's psykic phase or to help the LoC asttempt a turn 1 charge out of deep strike with the reroll and a CP reroll as needed (each can be done one at a time make it abit better than rerolling charges normally).
Gnarlmaws only affect Nurgle Daemons. Got my copy of the book today so I can 100% confirm that. Still good for nurgle oblits, but don't expect it to make horrors crazy.
any other specific questions I'll try to answer without quoting direct rules text
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/12 20:56:46
Commissar_Rex wrote: every daemon has a 6+ armor save, which means it affects everything, bringing any daemon to 4+/5++(/5+++ for nurgle) which is pretty huge.
There are a few exceptions of Nurgle Daemons in the Codex that aren't 6+: Horticulous Slimux (+4), Daemon Prince (+3) and Soul Grinder (+3). Edit: Oops SG is a vehicle indeed so doesn't benefit
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/12 23:54:02
Commissar_Rex wrote: Am I overreacting, or is the Feculent Gnarlmaw incredible to the point of auto-include? +2 to saves to all units within (I don't think it says 'wholly within') 7"? Unkillable mortal wound generator to protect whatever you put there ... like obliterators... or to just add serious battlefield control
I generally think most of the things I've read are well-balanced but this seems like it just begs for CSM/DG abuse.
The +2 cover ability is "fully within " 7"., It is their other ability that is just units "within" 7".
So... brilliant with Obliterators, pointless on Possessed unless you’re using them as a gimmicky screen, marginal on Plaguebearers and the other ‘true’ daemons, possible bottlenecking niche with Mutilators (I have to admit, charge after fall back when the enemy is definitely going to come to you makes them look tasty, and all of this can be built on the fly), possible niche gimmick with Warp Talons, not useful with Plague Marines or Spawn.
Yeah definitly not an auto include. Even with the slime when you summon more you gotta pay for them. Gonna get expensive quite. Then when you think about the save bonus is only +1 to your save if your opponent has no so, and if they do have so. It isn't a bonus at all. So is only ever take a max of 2 of them. One to start and a second to plop down right before you charge your stuff in.
From that shrivel pox from nurgle is really good in multi god. -1 toughness can help any unit kill stuff.
It occurs to me that one benefit they carry is redundancy - if you are dropping them as snail poo, then you are effectively buying them from Reinforcement Points - so, if you end up against IW, IF, or Tau, you can spend the mingetree points on Summoning instead of a Cover aura your opponent ignores.
Keep in mind that the Plaguebell Chime rule requires units to be within range at the start of their turn to benefit from charging or shooting after advancing/falling back. The Slimux 'drop a tree and charge units after advancing' strategy isn't quite as easy to achieve during a game.
Mchaagen wrote: Keep in mind that the Plaguebell Chime rule requires units to be within range at the start of their turn to benefit from charging or shooting after advancing/falling back. The Slimux 'drop a tree and charge units after advancing' strategy isn't quite as easy to achieve during a game.
That makes it easier as you just need the model to touch the tree the turn before you hope to get off your advance and charge. It o my suck that you don't beable to place the tree as far up the board. Meaning if you want another tree on your enemies side of the table, you'll have to spend the point to put another there.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Pointless on possessed is a bit strong. They can soak shooting T1 then advance and charge. Combo with warptime, and other buffs could be alright?
Why bother soaking anything when you can shove them in a Rhino, or deep strike in 30 Plaugebearers? What role do Possessed serve when you can buff your Plaugebearers to crazy levels and then get some back every turn?
Edit: I don't mean to sound like an ass or anything but Possessed don't seem like a worthwhile pickup at the moment. They still need tweaks to be worth their price and compete against other, better units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/13 00:43:06
Just read the codex back to back. Anyone a bit underwhelmed by the strats? Can't see my self using anything other than the deep strike and +inv ones...
Latro_ wrote: Just read the codex back to back. Anyone a bit underwhelmed by the strats? Can't see my self using anything other than the deep strike and +inv ones...
My 2c.
Good strats: Denizens of the Warp - No more foot slogging.
Daemonic Incursion - BTFO GKs.
Warp Surge - 3++ Daemon Lords? Thank you!
Aura of Aquiescence - Stack this with the KoS aura and you can do some serious damage to the damage output of Boyz/Zerkers/Stealers/etc.
Not much to say/Situational stats Banner of Blood
Locus of Wrath
Frenetic Bloodlust
Revolting Regeneration
Plague Banner
Blasted Standard
Magical Boon
Locus of Conjuration
Locus of Grace
Rapturous Standard
BAD strats Soul Sacrifice, Daemonic Pact, Daemonic Possession - Who summons stuff?
Locus of Fecundity - 2CP for re-rolling 1s on a save? Pass.
Definitely DS and +1invul strat are going to dominate the use of CP for Daemon armies.
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Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Well, talking about possessed... (other DAEMON chaos codex and Chaos Space Marine codex units are another story).
Before the start remember, that anyone of them can get +1 to wound, thx to "Veteran of the Long War"
Tzeenth: Mixed bag, really. What will you get in exchange for taking Tzeenth possessed?
T4 S6 (with herald) W2 D3A 3+/4++ blob, that have wierd ass ability to ignore some hit rolls, thx to Loci, and free reroll to your random attacks, thx to the new psychic power. Tzeenth is made for shooting and magic, sorry.
Slaanesh: A bit... better. But mediacore, really. Its a high risk high reward, giving you a blob of T4 S6 (with herald) W2 D3A 3+/5++/5+++ (sadly, we cant use both agonies for additional 6+++) that can:
Pile in and attack twice, if you get lucky with your dice.
Do a bonus attack on a 6+ to hit.
Reduse enemy's attack by 1.
Dodge enemy's attacks, thx to -1 to hit from anothey psychic power.
As you can see, lots of goodies, but they require lots of investment and all pretty mediacore.
Khorne: Bo-o-o. Lame. Reroll charge. That all. Clap. Everything else is just overcosted and dont even worth mentioning.
Nurgle: And we have a winner! Green is the new black this edition for possessed. +2 to wound rolls, and on a 4+ to wound aditional damage, on a 5+ to wound double damage? YES PLEASE. -1 to hit? YES PLEASE. -2 (Alpha legion) to hit?MLG420NONSCOPE. And all this goodies are greatly supported by tones of -1 (2! (3!!))T to enemy units!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/13 21:52:08
EricDominus wrote: Nurgle: And we have a winner! Green is the new black this edition for possessed. +2 to wound rolls, and on a 4+ to wound aditional damage, on a 5+ to wound double damage? YES PLEASE. -1 to hit? YES PLEASE. -2 (Alpha legion) to hit?MLG420NONSCOPE. And all this goodies are greatly supported by tones of -1 (2! (3!!))T to enemy units!
This makes me wonder if it would be a good idea to take Possessed in a Death Guard army buffed by a Daemons of Nurgle detachment. They can potentially benefit from the aura of a Lord of Contagion (or Typhus), plus there are a couple of decent spells (Blades of Putrefaction, Putrescent Vitality) that can buff them. Pretty good, especially if Morty's around to give nearby units -1 toughness.
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I was thinking you could wrangle possessed into a daemons deatchment to keep it BF, but on inspection there is a daemons faction KW to keep locis and unlock strats
If you want a Nurgle Daemonkin army, you can take a LEGION Vanguard with Possessed and Decimators and a Daemon Prince or character on Palanquin. Excellent synergy with Death Guard Legion Trait (a Tallyman is good company for their Possessed), excellent synergy with Epidemius, excellent access to Warptime and Death Hex if you go with a polytheist Legion (Alpha Legion and Renegades in particular have good Possessed).
This will also unlock CSM or DG Stratagems. Nothing especially outstanding per se... but it’s something.
Also, if you dig the toothy tree, a Spearhead of three Obliterators units with a Chaos Lord will be a brutal close-Medium range firebase that only cover ignoring factions will be confident against. Iron Warriors come to mind as a pretty good option, there - place a Gnarlmaw opposite an enemy firebase, drop in the heavy infantry, wreck face.
Bonus: lose the Obliterators’ weakness to being tarpitted.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/14 01:51:04
Daemon Prince 180 hq Wings, Malefic Talons, Axe, Tzeentch, Imp Robe
Fluxmaster 99 hq Fluxmaster (Daemonspark) 99 hq Fate Skimmer 150 hq 10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
20 Pink Horrors 140 t
20 Pink Horrors 140 t
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Screamers 124 f
4 Screamers 124 f
4 Screamers 124 f
Burning Chariot 120 h
Burning Chariot 120 h
Burning Chariot 120 h
4 'clomps' of attack
7 units in DS horrors, flamers and flux masters
drop in horror 120 s4 shots re-rolling 1's to wound (maybe whack on flickering for +1 to wound)
drop in flamers avg 36 s5 -1 hits
chariot wing up the board 9 s10 -4 d3 shots
screamers with DP for some CC punch
brims just camp objs or be annoying
5cp to spare and not even touching on a crap load of smite and other powers
its weird though tzeentch seems to pack some scary shooting but if you mathhammer it, does not seem to stack up
Latro_ wrote: What would you guys run for mono tzeentch at 2k?
I was thinking something like Brigade
Daemon Prince 180 hq Wings, Malefic Talons, Axe, Tzeentch, Imp Robe
Fluxmaster 99 hq Fluxmaster (Daemonspark) 99 hq Fate Skimmer 150 hq 10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
20 Pink Horrors 140 t
20 Pink Horrors 140 t
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Screamers 124 f
4 Screamers 124 f
4 Screamers 124 f
Burning Chariot 120 h
Burning Chariot 120 h
Burning Chariot 120 h
4 'clomps' of attack
7 units in DS horrors, flamers and flux masters
drop in horror 120 s4 shots re-rolling 1's to wound (maybe whack on flickering for +1 to wound)
drop in flamers avg 36 s5 -1 hits
chariot wing up the board 9 s10 -4 d3 shots
screamers with DP for some CC punch
brims just camp objs or be annoying
5cp to spare and not even touching on a crap load of smite and other powers
its weird though tzeentch seems to pack some scary shooting but if you mathhammer it, does not seem to stack up
go for 1 or 2 battalions and a vanguard instead. the burning chariot is hot garbage compared to the exalted flamer. only a minor increase of durability and speed to offset loss of character protections, just run the e. flamers inside a screen of brims or with the other flamers.
the other thing you can do is maximize use of CP by either taking just enough units to stay under PL 8 (ex 6 flamers) or going all-in on a single unit.
in the list above, all the brigade does for you is reduce character tax, but tzeentch is in the pleasant position where most characters in the HQ section are actually worth using.
yeah screamers are nice, but if you're going for drop-bomb shooting you won't have much of a way to hide them T1 to avoid them getting ruined as the only target of worth
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/14 04:20:45
Summon and then charge that annoying tank in the background.
Big fan of Fiends, here. Summoning is really tricky to make work with them. Can’t rely on the charge on the turn you Summon, so the warm-up requires you to first get a character into position, then next turn Summon, then next turn charge.
Main advantage of Summoning them is you can keep their superpower off your opponent’s mind during the setup. But with Locus of charge after advance, I’m more inclined to run them with some Seekers and a Herald - or else pay a CP to deep strike up to eight of them.
Latro_ wrote: Just read the codex back to back. Anyone a bit underwhelmed by the strats? Can't see my self using anything other than the deep strike and +inv ones...
My 2c.
Good strats: Denizens of the Warp - No more foot slogging.
Daemonic Incursion - BTFO GKs.
Warp Surge - 3++ Daemon Lords? Thank you!
Aura of Aquiescence - Stack this with the KoS aura and you can do some serious damage to the damage output of Boyz/Zerkers/Stealers/etc.
Not much to say/Situational stats Banner of Blood
Locus of Wrath
Frenetic Bloodlust
Revolting Regeneration
Plague Banner
Blasted Standard
Magical Boon
Locus of Conjuration
Locus of Grace
Rapturous Standard
BAD strats Soul Sacrifice, Daemonic Pact, Daemonic Possession - Who summons stuff?
Locus of Fecundity - 2CP for re-rolling 1s on a save? Pass.
Definitely DS and +1invul strat are going to dominate the use of CP for Daemon armies.
i agree with lots of this, but:
down grade:
aura of aquiense i'd say is back down to situation only in that it's onyl really good in nurgle/slannesh armies where you are ransoming units, by surrounding them and then hoping to finish them off in the opponent fight phase. Other wise i don't really see it coming into play a whole ton.
plague banner (bad): putting this on units your opponent sees coming a turn away no matter how you try to get these guys on the field. multiple damage on dudes that don't have any AP. I'm not sold khorne does it better inately.
Blasted standard (bad because banners on horrors are bad): It's fairly decent against the right targets and actualy averages more damage than a smite from a no bonus caster, but the banner isn't worth it on it's own. Also i don't really highly rate the daemonic banners, it's too easily countered by just killing the squad completely and even then i jsut don't see them making thier points back on horrors who won't be getting chipped down a lot and constantly getting to roll bravery from melee or overwatch. Unlike the other lesser daemons who are gonna always be losing 1 or two models on your turn to over watch and melee relatialtion that the banner gets to get a lot of action.
Inclusion into situational or good:
Rewards of chaos (situational/list dependent): i think among one of the best stratagems we have. Even more so in tournament play. Bring a token slannesh herald for -1 to hit spell and access to -1 to hit aura. You can use rewards of chaos against opponents who bring stuff like magnus or mortarian for a 50% shot of just turning the guy off in the fight or psykic phase. Bring a token daemon prince of khorne with axe you have a great beat stick cahracter who can get into range to give your blood letter bomb reroll 1s, and who himself does respectable damage against small vehicles or hordes with either axe or talon, but then against opponents with acceptable targets you can pull out the skullreaver and cut big threat models in half. very flexible use of 1-3cp and something i think is definitly worth building most pure daemons armies around. Just on those two relics i think this stratagem is good as thier use is so situation and relics have to be appart of your list usualy, but CP let you be more flexibile. I'd almost say this is just plain good, but i guess you might not wanna take a khorne daemon prince or a slannesh herald.
Daemonic possession (good): just great stuff a free smite that auto goes off. No range just really double down on the perils punish.
So... the new Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage... with armour of scorn...
With the DS strategem...
Dude.
With the "Deathbringer" (Each unmodified hit roll of 6 made for this model in the Fight phase scores 2 hits instead of 1) + Unstoppable Ferocity + new weapon mode "Sweeping Blow":
Latro_ wrote: I was thinking you could wrangle possessed into a daemons deatchment to keep it BF, but on inspection there is a daemons faction KW to keep locis and unlock strats
Funny story, Death Guard possessed are Faction daemon.
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
