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 Kanluwen wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, technically the only thing things the Primaris Captain has over the existing Captain is that it's A: it's a prettier sculpt and B: it's bigger. Not sure if that's worth 50% more.

Is the Space Marine Commander worth $22.25?
Yes or no?

For me, yes.

But I've never really considered it a single model and always used it as more of an "upgrade" box to customize other models, such as veterans or sergeants. So it's not a single model box in my mind.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Player not found wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
So the librarian is basically trading away the options to have anything but a BP/force sword and foot slogging for 1W and 1A, points are the same. Not sure it’s right to trade options for stats, but there we are.

Captain pays 13 points for the same stat boost, and also looses out on almost all his options.

If/When we get transports or special rules that only effect primaris marines, these guys might be relevant. Right now the rules are not exciting me.

So, you hadn't yet realized that these weren't the full Primaris Captain and Primaris Librarian rules?

These are just the bare-boned rules necessary for people to get by until the new C:SM codex comes out. It lists all the rules necessary to play the model as-is-out-of-the-blister and that's it.

That the weapon options are currently limited (rules-wise) doesn't mean they'll remain so once the codex comes out.

Hopefully.

GW has in the past restricted gear options to what’s in the kit. Look at the 7th ed rules for the contemptor dreadnought. Even with a massive pile of parts that FW sold, the only options it had were the ones in the box. Same with the new terminators as well.

So while I hope you are right and we’ll get more options once the full codex drops, I’m not holding my breath.

This is what I dread the most. Index Imperium is already doing it to a degree and I loathe it.
I have some conversions I can no longer use, because there are no models with this loadout and therefore no rules.
I really hope they bring options back that are not (yet) supported in model form. But yeah, I'm also not holding my breath.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Player not found wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
So the librarian is basically trading away the options to have anything but a BP/force sword and foot slogging for 1W and 1A, points are the same. Not sure it’s right to trade options for stats, but there we are.

Captain pays 13 points for the same stat boost, and also looses out on almost all his options.

If/When we get transports or special rules that only effect primaris marines, these guys might be relevant. Right now the rules are not exciting me.

So, you hadn't yet realized that these weren't the full Primaris Captain and Primaris Librarian rules?

These are just the bare-boned rules necessary for people to get by until the new C:SM codex comes out. It lists all the rules necessary to play the model as-is-out-of-the-blister and that's it.

That the weapon options are currently limited (rules-wise) doesn't mean they'll remain so once the codex comes out.

Hopefully.

GW has in the past restricted gear options to what’s in the kit. Look at the 7th ed rules for the contemptor dreadnought. Even with a massive pile of parts that FW sold, the only options it had were the ones in the box. Same with the new terminators as well.

So while I hope you are right and we’ll get more options once the full codex drops, I’m not holding my breath.

This is what I dread the most. Index Imperium is already doing it to a degree and I loathe it.
I have some conversions I can no longer use, because there are no models with this loadout and therefore no rules.
I really hope they bring options back that are not (yet) supported in model form. But yeah, I'm also not holding my breath.

And at the same time you can have DKoK Commissars with hot-shot lasguns

 Geifer wrote:
Well, at least we have confirmation that there will be a generic Marine codex, not a separate Primaris one.

While the Librarian rules do say "see Codex: Space Marines", the rules for the Captain say "see the Codex or Index book relevant to your army". But according to the PDF on the GW site both can be taken in all types of SM forces bar GK. So why the different wording

 Kanluwen wrote:

It also was present in virtually every holiday boxed set that GW did for Marines and now rots on the shelves because while it's such a great kit( lol...) it doesn't have updated options to match what people actually were fielding.

That's because what people were fielding was Chaplains and Librarians.

That was an issue with the rules, not with the kit.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Well, at least we have confirmation that there will be a generic Marine codex, not a separate Primaris one.

While the Librarian rules do say "see Codex: Space Marines", the rules for the Captain say "see the Codex or Index book relevant to your army". But according to the PDF on the GW site both can be taken in all types of SM forces bar GK. So why the different wording

Perhaps they don't know what they're doing over at GW? Perhaps they have a kunnin' plan? It's a good point, but I have no idea. I don't even think the Primaris Captain is in the Index. The Gravis Captain is, and his name is not spelled out as Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor, just Captain in Gravis Armor.

Edit: After some thought my best guess is that GW originally intended to release the Captain earlier and therefore include his rules in the Marine Index. Then they altered their release schedule and threw him out of the book, but the assembly instructions with the rules were already at the printer.

Similarly, we have two scenarios with the availability of these characters. Either GW intends to have a seriously massive Marine codex, like the Index, but with background and color section on top of that, or they decided late that deviant chapters should be able to buy the characters, something easily implemented in the points PDF but not on the sheet in the box.

Who knows?

 Geifer wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Well, at least we have confirmation that there will be a generic Marine codex, not a separate Primaris one.

While the Librarian rules do say "see Codex: Space Marines", the rules for the Captain say "see the Codex or Index book relevant to your army". But according to the PDF on the GW site both can be taken in all types of SM forces bar GK. So why the different wording

Perhaps they don't know what they're doing over at GW? Perhaps they have a kunnin' plan? It's a good point, but I have no idea. I don't even think the Primaris Captain is in the Index. The Gravis Captain is, and his name is not spelled out as Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor, just Captain in Gravis Armor.

Edit: After some thought my best guess is that GW originally intended to release the Captain earlier and therefore include his rules in the Marine Index. Then they altered their release schedule and threw him out of the book, but the assembly instructions with the rules were already at the printer.

Similarly, we have two scenarios with the availability of these characters. Either GW intends to have a seriously massive Marine codex, like the Index, but with background and color section on top of that, or they decided late that deviant chapters should be able to buy the characters, something easily implemented in the points PDF but not on the sheet in the box.

Who knows?

that's easy to explain, the datasheet provided doesn't give the rules for ATSKNF hence if you need those rules, check the codex or index.

that said I feel the captain is a bit of a wasted oppertunity. if that stalker bolter was a sniper weapon it'd have been a nice choice, adding some real tatical options to the Primaris toolkit. a character who can buff a unit with re-rolls, while sniping out enemy characters would be a pretty nice option.

EDIT: NVM

So they may actually have a kunnin' plan! Heh!

Agreed on the options. Plus, he's one guy. It would give Marines a shooty HQ for once without making him better than a dedicated sniper unit like Scouts.

Don't have an Index because I didn't need one for the Primaris on account of their rules being in the DI box. Anyone will to give a quick rundown on what those Librarian powers are abouts?

 AduroT wrote:
Don't have an Index because I didn't need one for the Primaris on account of their rules being in the DI box. Anyone will to give a quick rundown on what those Librarian powers are abouts?

In Summery:
Veil of time: a buff that effects a unit within 18 inches, allows it to re-roll charge and advance rolls, always fights first in melee
Might of heros: buff a model within 12 inches, add +1 to S, T and attacks
Null Zone: enemy unit within 6 inches cannot use an invul save and must half results of psykic tests,

pretty solid. viel of time'll be a good way to buff a unit, might of heros is great for buffing a character (cast it on Gulliman for the LOLs Null Zone is a little situational, but I think'll be a good one if fighting deamons. or 1k sons.

Definitely could have used that Null Zone when I last played 'Nids.

Is the Primaris Librarian actually worth the cost of losing the ability to customize? It seems like an extra attack and wound is a pretty fair trade-off.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is the Primaris Librarian actually worth the cost of losing the ability to customize? It seems like an extra attack and wound is a pretty fair trade-off.

All depends, if you say run a Libby with power armor, and a staff, then yeah, the Primaris is proably worth the upgrade. if you say prefer to run with with a sword, terminator armor and thunder shield well, the Primaris Libby may not be worth trading to.

I'm gonna snag the libby for myself, to pair with my blood ravens gravis captain, but think I'll pass on the captain, I'll use the starter set one when I, thematicly, want a primaris captain.

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is the Primaris Librarian actually worth the cost of losing the ability to customize? It seems like an extra attack and wound is a pretty fair trade-off.

All depends, if you say run a Libby with power armor, and a staff, then yeah, the Primaris is proably worth the upgrade. if you say prefer to run with with a sword, terminator armor and thunder shield well, the Primaris Libby may not be worth trading to.

I'm gonna snag the libby for myself, to pair with my blood ravens gravis captain, but think I'll pass on the captain, I'll use the starter set one when I, thematicly, want a primaris captain.

Good point. I have a Power Armor Librarian (converted from the Deathwatch Blood Ravens Librarian), so this new one will still have a place. I am getting the Captain mostly just to have, but I might end up using him, the Gravis Captain, or more likely, the Anniversary Captain with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol (he has a fist and a special pistol, so he is automatically in the lead).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if I had to guess why the Librarian specifically calls out the Codex: Space Marines vs. the Captain just saying "use the relevant codex or index", it is because the Librarian specifically calls out the Librarius Discipline. I suppose they did that because otherwise they would potentially have to list every Discipline and possibly having the rules be rendered obsolete when new Disciplines come out.

I wouldn't mind seeing Chapter Specific versions of the Librarian that swap out one of the sprues for Chapter Specific stuff though. Probably won't happen, and definitely wouldn't help the poor Rune Priest, but it would be sort of neat.

My current plan is to probably convert the Primaris Captain into Vulkan.

I'm not getting either of these miniatures. I might take an extra lieutenant miniature and some bitz and make an equivalent of the captain though. Should be fairly straighforward to reposition some limbs and add some badges of rank and appropriate weapons. I'm fairly sure I have various bits from a terminator box that would work for all that (including a left side power sword hand).

Now that I think about it, the ancient/standard bearer might be an even better basis. Just need to add a scope and a straight clip to the gun (or an ammo drum) and he can have the sword raised in the air where the banner would be. Endless heads would work as well. Probably chop the bolter arm a bit to get it at a different angle.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Player not found wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
So the librarian is basically trading away the options to have anything but a BP/force sword and foot slogging for 1W and 1A, points are the same. Not sure it’s right to trade options for stats, but there we are.

Captain pays 13 points for the same stat boost, and also looses out on almost all his options.

If/When we get transports or special rules that only effect primaris marines, these guys might be relevant. Right now the rules are not exciting me.

So, you hadn't yet realized that these weren't the full Primaris Captain and Primaris Librarian rules?

These are just the bare-boned rules necessary for people to get by until the new C:SM codex comes out. It lists all the rules necessary to play the model as-is-out-of-the-blister and that's it.

That the weapon options are currently limited (rules-wise) doesn't mean they'll remain so once the codex comes out.

Hopefully.

GW has in the past restricted gear options to what’s in the kit. Look at the 7th ed rules for the contemptor dreadnought. Even with a massive pile of parts that FW sold, the only options it had were the ones in the box. Same with the new terminators as well.

So while I hope you are right and we’ll get more options once the full codex drops, I’m not holding my breath.

We already know there's going to be options for Primaris Captains thanks to the Anniversary Primaris Captain having a completely different load out from the retail one.

So a bolter, a slightly different bolter, and a weapon that kills him instantly on a 1 (or a 2 if he uses it at night!).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So a bolter, a slightly different bolter, and a weapon that kills him instantly on a 1 (or a 2 if he uses it at night!).

or he could just not over charge the plasma pistol and not have it kill him. that's one thing about plasma in 8th, you can choose to not over charge and remove the risk.

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So a bolter, a slightly different bolter, and a weapon that kills him instantly on a 1 (or a 2 if he uses it at night!).

or he could just not over charge the plasma pistol and not have it kill him. that's one thing about plasma in 8th, you can choose to not over charge and remove the risk.

People seems to be ignoring that fact for some reason.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So a bolter, a slightly different bolter, and a weapon that kills him instantly on a 1 (or a 2 if he uses it at night!).

Only if he overcharges it. The penalties really aren't a big deal, as you don't have to use the dangerous option. If its too dangerous to use, don't use it.
Its not as if the overcharge is needed anyway; standard shot is plasma from earlier editions except without the risk, and overcharge just adds +1 to damage and strength.

zasz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So a bolter, a slightly different bolter, and a weapon that kills him instantly on a 1 (or a 2 if he uses it at night!).

or he could just not over charge the plasma pistol and not have it kill him. that's one thing about plasma in 8th, you can choose to not over charge and remove the risk.

People seems to be ignoring that fact for some reason.

Might that be because there is simply nothing wrong with having a low power and high power setting on an energy weapon? Whereas no amount of suspension of disbelief gets around the questionable nature of instable plasma weapons becoming even more so during nightly air raids?

For all GW touts the idea of narrative gaming and "forging the narrative", they are lousy at providing a coherent and cohesive rules framework for that. That's what people keep complaining about.

The only thing bad about Plasma Pistols is that they are probably worth more than their points, meaning they will probably get a points increase. But since Power Fists aren't worth their points, perhaps the Anniversary Captain will stay the same price. At any rate, I am thrilled the Anniversary Captain has a Plasma Pistol. I will NEVER overcharge it since, despite the fact Captains reroll 1s, too many things exist to make him still die on a 2.

What would be awesome is if it is something like a heavy plasma pistol or Master-crafted plasma pistol and does 2 Damage anyway.

 Geifer wrote:
Might that be because there is simply nothing wrong with having a low power and high power setting on an energy weapon? Whereas no amount of suspension of disbelief gets around the questionable nature of instable plasma weapons becoming even more so during nightly air raids?

For all GW touts the idea of narrative gaming and "forging the narrative", they are lousy at providing a coherent and cohesive rules framework for that. That's what people keep complaining about.

Hey look! One person got it.

I imagine the reason GW didn't make them overheat on natural 1s is because they either:
a. Didn't want there to be a situation where you both overheat & hit your target.
b. Didn't want to make overcharged weapons make you more likely to miss if you have positive modifiers (by having it so overheating always makes you miss).

Of course, maybe they did just want them to overheat a crazy amount in certain bizzare situations.

 Crimson wrote:
Rules:
I really hope the Librarian can have a staff in the Codex.

We haven't seen model with staff so unless it's kept in hidden don't count on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I imagine the reason GW didn't make them overheat on natural 1s is because they either:
a. Didn't want there to be a situation where you both overheat & hit your target.
b. Didn't want to make overcharged weapons make you more likely to miss if you have positive modifiers (by having it so overheating always makes you miss).

Of course, maybe they did just want them to overheat a crazy amount in certain bizzare situations.

Seeing natural dice roll of 1 is always a miss regardless of modifiers having overheat happen on natural 1 only would mean it's IMPOSSIBLE for gun to both hit and overheat...

But frankly both hitting and overheating makes sense fluffwise. Bolt leaves but also gun overheats in the process. Much more sensible it overheats because it's dark.

Forging the narrative-wise...perhaps firing at things that give a -1 BS modifier means you are rapidly firing shots?

Desperately trying to hit your target, making it more likely the plasma overheats and slags your arm off?

RayPurchase wrote:
Forging the narrative-wise...perhaps firing at things that give a -1 BS modifier means you are rapidly firing shots?

Desperately trying to hit your target, making it more likely the plasma overheats and slags your arm off?

Or you hold down the trigger for too long, use the wrong calibrations, etc. There's plenty of reasons you can make up as to why it overheats from a modifier. It's an abstraction, after all.

tneva82 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I imagine the reason GW didn't make them overheat on natural 1s is because they either:
a. Didn't want there to be a situation where you both overheat & hit your target.
b. Didn't want to make overcharged weapons make you more likely to miss if you have positive modifiers (by having it so overheating always makes you miss).

Of course, maybe they did just want them to overheat a crazy amount in certain bizzare situations.

Seeing natural dice roll of 1 is always a miss regardless of modifiers having overheat happen on natural 1 only would mean it's IMPOSSIBLE for gun to both hit and overheat...

But frankly both hitting and overheating makes sense fluffwise. Bolt leaves but also gun overheats in the process. Much more sensible it overheats because it's dark.

Yup, I derped there for a second lol. For some reason I forgot natural 1s always miss even though I literally wrote a post mentioning that not so long before.

I doubt it's going to happen given how many entries they'd have to cover but I really hope they change it to natural 1s, if only to stop people bringing up shooting flyers at night while running every time plasma is mentioned.