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Also seems the Axe Of Medusa is s Relic Blade with set damage. Not too bad.

Could mean that you can only have one <chapter> in your army, but you can have other Imperium allies as long as they are in a different detachment.

Yeah, that might be it.
No other chapters in the army, but Imperium forces may be taken provided they are in another detachment. Makes sense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
GW Appears to have given out early access copies of the Codex, so here' hoping we get some leaks soon.

Where did you hear this?

I didn't hear it. I saw it. Tabletop Tactics tweeted out their copy, including the models GW provided them as well.

What a terribly unoriginal relic for iron hands but I suppose that fits gws consistent effort put into the chapter.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
GW Appears to have given out early access copies of the Codex, so here' hoping we get some leaks soon.

Where did you hear this?

I didn't hear it. I saw it. Tabletop Tactics tweeted out their copy, including the models GW provided them as well.

link please

zamerion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
GW Appears to have given out early access copies of the Codex, so here' hoping we get some leaks soon.

Where did you hear this?

I didn't hear it. I saw it. Tabletop Tactics tweeted out their copy, including the models GW provided them as well.

link please

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWxEuPaASS3/

I have this for you from Instagram.

zamerion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
GW Appears to have given out early access copies of the Codex, so here' hoping we get some leaks soon.

Where did you hear this?

I didn't hear it. I saw it. Tabletop Tactics tweeted out their copy, including the models GW provided them as well.

link please

Easily found by Googling 'Tabletop Tactics Twitter'

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWxEuPaASS3/

Ok thanks.
I wanted to see the apothecary better

 Ghaz wrote:

Easily found by Googling 'Tabletop Tactics Twitter'

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWxEuPaASS3/

Oh come now, we can't expect people to go to the bare minimum effort to find information for themselves, can we?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't those two statements contradictory?

First Statement - same chapter army wide to receive buffs

Second Statement - same chapter detachment wide to receive buffs

Did I miss something?

Its key words detatchments.

So you can run a full patrol detachment that all has key word chapter space wombats and then take a second spear head detachment full of regiment imperial guard fruit bats.

But having a patrol detachment with one random commisar and the rest space marines means you wont get to use Chapter tactics space wombats. i guess they are too distracted.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Yep, however it has been worded differently a few times. Some have said "army" and one or two said "detachment". That's a pretty big difference. I have to imagine it's army or you really can abuse the hell out of it.

I doubt it'll be per army. likely per detachment, as early as 6th edition space marines could "ally with themselves"

Yeah, army-wide would be stupid.
Want an Inquisitor? Well, no Chapter Tactics for you.

From Facebook:

<REDACTED> Are there downsides to chapter tactics and strategems? Or are they like formations giving a boost to your army at no point cost?

<WARHAMMER 40,000> The downside is simply that your whole army must be the same chapter and you can;t have allies from outside the chapter in the same detachment.

<REDACTED> Warhammer 40,000 How does that work with armies that only really function as allies?

Do inquisition players (for instance) drastically gimp any detachment of marines that they join by making them non-compliant?

<WARHAMMER 40,000> Indeed, they do. You can take Inquisition no problem, but they'll have to be part of a different detachment...

It looks to me, and I hope, that this is just the GW facebook person getting confused about the meaning of a detachment, vs an army. They use the terms interchangeably. So everything in a detachment needs to be from the same chapter if you're getting CTs, but you can have other detachments.

That's the model followed by the Admech Canticles, for what it's worth, so there's a precedent (albeit just a single one!). It seems a logical approach to take with other stuff, and would help to reduce the strength of imperial soup armies.

zamerion wrote:
Ok thanks.
I wanted to see the apothecary better

I want to see the Overlord!
I hope it's in there.

 Kirasu wrote:
What a terribly unoriginal relic for iron hands but I suppose that fits gws consistent effort put into the chapter.

I like it. It's a consistent Relic Blade.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
What a terribly unoriginal relic for iron hands but I suppose that fits gws consistent effort put into the chapter.

I like it. It's a consistent Relic Blade.

Yeah honestly im glad its not something insane or complicated.

a little off topic, but wasn't there supposed to be a free rules download (got that) and also a big library of PDF datasheets for free, like in Age of Sigmar? I wanted to check out some stuff while I'm board at work but I can't find it, maybe I'm missing it...

or are they just planning to have the free main rules but you still need the books for the unit rules? Or is everything in a smartphone app or something?

 Necros wrote:
a little off topic, but wasn't there supposed to be a free rules download (got that) and also a big library of PDF datasheets for free, like in Age of Sigmar? I wanted to check out some stuff while I'm board at work but I can't find it, maybe I'm missing it...

or are they just planning to have the free main rules but you still need the books for the unit rules? Or is everything in a smartphone app or something?

They might be sitting in the black libraries download section possibly but i haven't really been searching it out

 Necros wrote:
a little off topic, but wasn't there supposed to be a free rules download (got that) and also a big library of PDF datasheets for free, like in Age of Sigmar? I wanted to check out some stuff while I'm board at work but I can't find it, maybe I'm missing it...

or are they just planning to have the free main rules but you still need the books for the unit rules? Or is everything in a smartphone app or something?

No. The only free rules that were ever announced for 8th edition were the core rules. Everything else was speculation based on the precedents set by Age of Sigmar,

I get that GW wanted to remove the combo wombo armies that plague 6th and 7th, but, again, their hard pendulum swing from "All combos all the time" to "If an Inquisitor shows up the Iron Hands forget who they are!" just makes no sense.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I get that GW wanted to remove the combo wombo armies that plague 6th and 7th, but, again, their hard pendulum swing from "All combos all the time" to "If an Inquisitor shows up the Iron Hands forget who they are!" just makes no sense.

There are just too many variables to think about in terms of balance when you do that. Especially when we don't even know what other armies are getting yet.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I get that GW wanted to remove the combo wombo armies that plague 6th and 7th, but, again, their hard pendulum swing from "All combos all the time" to "If an Inquisitor shows up the Iron Hands forget who they are!" just makes no sense.

Yeah, it's kind of stupid.

I went and checked the rules for how detachments and all that work and came to the conclusion that it's not really a problem.

"An army can include any number of Detachments and you can mix them together however you like." p240

Even in the matched play section the limiting of detachments isn't a rule, it's a guideline for event organizers.

So anyone who wants to take inquisitors and iron hands and keep their chapter tactics can just take a support detachment or a patrol detachment or whatever is needed to keep them separate. It only really matters to people who play tournaments or those who are too dumb to realize their normal pick up games aren't tournament games and they don't have to take event organizer guidelines as if they were rules for games outside of events.

It is stupid though. As are the canticle rules. How does one guy being there suddenly shut down all the transmissions and codes that activate the systems the canticles activate?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually it's even easier to get around than I first thought because you can simply move the marine units that do not get chapter tactics into the same detachment as the inquisitor. Or just whatever is needed to not end up with less command points.

It is stupid though that cybernetics stop working to save their lives because some other guy is hanging around. That's really dumb.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I get that GW wanted to remove the combo wombo armies that plague 6th and 7th, but, again, their hard pendulum swing from "All combos all the time" to "If an Inquisitor shows up the Iron Hands forget who they are!" just makes no sense.

I think that's what the -1CP Auxiliary detachment is for, so you can throw in an Inquisitor or Assassin or whatever and still have mono-subfaction detachments.

The benefit of Chapter Tactics is that they give you cool stuff.
The drawback of Chapter Tactics is that they take away cool stuff.

I don't really care how they justify it, maybe Space Marines are afraid that their awesome Chapter Tactics will make the Inquisitor forget his duty and have him fall in love with them:



Sometimes a game balancing mechanic isn't able to be justified with in-game fluff that makes everybody happy, but the game still needs to be balanced.

Want something neat from the toolbox, you have to put another tool back. Want to mix tools from different boxes, pay a price.

No but having somebody there on the same general vox frequency who isn't 100% trustworthy (ie reports to somebody who isn't your chapter master) might well mean you hesitate in using certain orders, speaking in certain ways etc

think of chapter tactics reflecting the smooth running of a perfect opertation, and think of the chapters etc as countries of an organisation like Nato.

They might run a joint operation with troops from various different members, but it would never be as smooth as if it was run by a single nation state where the troops have always trained together

eg a couple of squads advancing, one provides covering fire, the other advances, they swap etc, but exactly how far each advance is, where they seek cover, where the covering fire goes, what type of enemy is a prime target etc could all differ slightly

Brother Marine One is expecting Inquisitor Two to make a run for the low mound that's clearly the best cover and is spraying his bolter at a potential enemy position behind a low wall to the left of the mound, but Inquisitor Two is used to being seen by the Guard Squad he normally runs with so charges forward and leaps onto the wall

Which means Brother Marine One has to check his fire and is a few seconds late in starting his run for cover and while he's doing so he's on his Vox link to the rest of his Brother Marines warning them the Inquisitor (is an idiot and) doesn't seem to be using the expected pattern of advance and to keep an eye on him which means the vox from Brother Marine Three warning of an enemy squad in the woods ahead isn't quite as clear meaning vital miliseconds are lost before the squad can adjust their fire and advance direction etc

I think this is how faction rules are going to work in general. That said, it shouldn't come as a big surprise given what we saw with Canticles and Genestealer Cults - the big army-wide bonuses seem like they'll have a cost of requiring a pure detachment.

d-usa wrote:Sometimes a game balancing mechanic isn't able to be justified with in-game fluff that makes everybody happy, but the game still needs to be balanced.

Want something neat from the toolbox, you have to put another tool back. Want to mix tools from different boxes, pay a price.

Except for you don't really pay a price. You can put all your space marine infantry and bikes and dreads in a detachment and then put your other stuff in other "Imperial" detachments and not lose out at all. 3 troops and 2 HQs and you get your 3 command points and everything else can go where ever it needs to in order to keep tactics and maximize command points. There isn't even a requirement that dedicated transports be in the same detachment. The only people who are going to lose their chapter tactics are people who haven't figured out the optimal detachment arrangement. It won't punish anyone who is trying to optimize things, but it will catch the casual person who is just "I thought an inquisitor is cool."

Optimizing detachments for command points and keeping chapter tactics is going to be a thing and I'm against both the needless extra work as well as the way it might punish a new player who isn't aware of the implications. If I can take the exact same units with the exact same equipment at the same points, why should I get extra abilities and command points because I figured out which slot to plug them into while the new person doesn't because they accidentally put their inquisitor in an HQ slot in their Battallion detachment rather than putting it in the spearhead detachment with the tanks?

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:No but having somebody there on the same general vox frequency who isn't 100% trustworthy (ie reports to somebody who isn't your chapter master) might well mean you hesitate in using certain orders, speaking in certain ways etc

I'm generally totally on board with this sort of post hoc fictional justifications, but that simply does not fly for the majority of the chapter tactics. Cybernetics. Master crafted weapons. Training in fighting withdrawal. Skill at hiding. As if a Black Templar is going to charge forward in a less zealous fashion because some inquisitor will hear their battle cries.

think of chapter tactics reflecting the smooth running of a perfect opertation, and think of the chapters etc as countries of an organisation like Nato.

It totally sucks when equipment stops working when the guy from the other country shows up. Those abrhams tanks advanced targeting equipment just won't work. And neither do the anti-missile protection systems because someone else is looped into the radio chatter. Nato must hate that.

This is one area where no post hoc justification is going to get you there.

But, who cares?

Its a way to try to kinda maybe balance it for tourney play. Its literally impossible to make rules fit real life in every case. (Or real life of how fluff "would" "should" be)

This is why they made open play. Play however you want in open play cause it doesent matter. If it bothers people that much, there's your option.

Yee Gods that Redemptor Dread is fugly. Just seen him now =/

 frozenwastes wrote:

d-usa wrote:Sometimes a game balancing mechanic isn't able to be justified with in-game fluff that makes everybody happy, but the game still needs to be balanced.

Want something neat from the toolbox, you have to put another tool back. Want to mix tools from different boxes, pay a price.

Except for you don't really pay a price. You can put all your space marine infantry and bikes and dreads in a detachment and then put your other stuff in other "Imperial" detachments and not lose out at all. 3 troops and 2 HQs and you get your 3 command points and everything else can go elsewhere. There isn't even a requirement that dedicated transports be in the same detachment. The only people who are going to lose their chapter tactics are people who haven't figured out the optimal detachment arrangement. It won't punish anyone who is trying to optimize things, but it will catch the casual person who is just "I thought an inquisitor is cool."

Yes, you pay a price in multiple ways. Just to come up with a couple (and without knowing what the actual full restrictions are going to be):

1: You limit the tactical potential of your Chapter using the tactics. Unless "all my units get this cool chapter tactic, but I'm just going to use these 2 HQs and 3 Troops that will benefit from them"is the tactic you are going for. If you want more synergy for your primary chapter, you will need to take more units. And you can do that, the Battalion Attachment is very flexible in that regard. But that takes up points of course, which is understandable. The more units you take of your chapter, the fewer points you have for your other Imperial Detachments. The more Imperial Detachments you take, the fewer points you have for your Chapter.

2: If you want to take specialized troops that benefit from the CT, without paying the regular Troops tax, you can take the specialized detachments. Want a smaller White Scars army that all benefit from the CT? Take an Outrider Detachment. Want a smaller Iron Hands army that benefit from the CT? Take a Vanguard Detachment. Salamanders might benefit from a Spearhead Detachment. Sure, you now only get +1 Command Point instead of +3, but that's the price you pay for keeping CT and having enough points to build another detachment. You can even combine an IH Vanguard Detachment and a WS Outrider Detachment in the same army and keep the CT for each, but you are giving up a Command Point vs taking a bigger Battalion Attachment of a single army.

3: Whatever ally detachment you take, you are paying the price by having to comply with the detachment requirements. Want some IG allies? You can take some single units and pay -1 Command Point. Or you have to take a minimum of 1 HQ and 1 Troop to field a legal detachment. So if you are really only interested in an IG Heavy Support, Elite, Fast Attack, or Flyer you are paying a "1 HQ & 1 Troop" tax to get them. Those points are coming from somewhere. Or you are paying the "HQ and taking a bunch of the same unit type" tax to get a specialized detachment.

4: You can also just take them in your Space Marine detachment and pay the "no CT" price.


Are any of those crippling? No. Will they invalidate builds? No. Will they keep lists from being competitive? No.

But all of them come with a price. You need to spend points or give up Command Points to field a legal army.

I have no issue with this limiter it's certainly wonky fluff wise but sometimes you gotta sacrifice fluff for fairness.

Unless anyone seriously thinks Marines should be as awesome as they're depicted in some of the bolter porn out there