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 AduroT wrote:
Any of the reviews/leaks show a shot of the Intercessors Codex entry? Only one of the Primaris unit entries I don't believe I've seen yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpvAr9DRmgQ

At 44:08

Thanks.

 Galas wrote:
I can understand GW not making rules to parts that they literally dont' sell. But... why ban conversions that you can do with their kits?

Because Chapterhouse.

This is why GW kits are slowly having fewer and fewer options, and why the kits are only compatible with themselves (look at the new Primaris kits - can't mix'n'match those with any regular Marine thing*).

Many many years ago the old school players wished upon a star that GW would release kits for things that had long gone without them. Then Chapterhouse happened. Then GW answered our wishes, but in the opposite way. Rather than releasing kits for things that had rules, they removed the things that didn't have kits and only made rules for things that had kits. A real case of "Be careful what you wish for!".





*'Cept maybe shoulder pads/heads because GW isn't stupid..

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Sooo... hypothetically if the "sergeants can't take combi weapons" thing is confirmed, and similarly if it's strictly true and the new tactical squad options don't allow certain heavy weapons, can I just technically run my tactical squads as Index versions instead?

WintersSEO stated sergeants can't take combi-grav in the new codex. The wargear options for the tactical sgt are shown at 44:09 and the wargear list is shown briefly at 40:40 in his review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpvAr9DRmgQ), with combi-grav omitted in the sergeant wargear options.

This is a complete mistake on their part because the tactical marine box comes with all the combi weapons. Another codex book that will likely need a page faq/errata upon release, no surprise. It's strange too because the index has the correct options.

GW finds new ways to repeat old mistakes.

Mchaagen wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Sooo... hypothetically if the "sergeants can't take combi weapons" thing is confirmed, and similarly if it's strictly true and the new tactical squad options don't allow certain heavy weapons, can I just technically run my tactical squads as Index versions instead?

WintersSEO stated sergeants can't take combi-grav in the new codex. The wargear options for the tactical sgt are shown at 44:09 and the wargear list is shown briefly at 40:40 in his review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpvAr9DRmgQ), with combi-grav omitted in the sergeant wargear options.

This is a complete mistake on their part because the tactical marine box comes with all the combi weapons. Another codex book that will likely need a page faq/errata upon release, no surprise. It's strange too because the index has the correct options.

GW finds new ways to repeat old mistakes.

At this point, games workshop should reduce the hassle they always bring upon themselves and release electronic Beta/Alpha versions of codex's. Yeah, some people will claim it will hurt their bottom line as people will just use the alpha/beta version in future with tweaks, but it would be far far far more professional in the current climate to do so. They are a smallish company, and make lots of mistakes, let the bloody community help you to proof read and spot those mistakes in the first place.

Think what this all must look like to new players or returning players from second edition etc. Yeah cool, you only need the core rules, but that also means you need to get FAQ 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 etc and codex space marine, plus the index to cover all your needed options, + FAQ 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 etc etc etc. As someone who hasn't played since 4th edition, the admin involved for me to come back and play really is one of the most off putting things to me, with cost only just above it.

Actually you just need the latest FAQ. They always just add new errata / questions.

ERJAK wrote:


Unpopular opinion but...feth conversions. I absolutely HATED that the best equipment setups for thing like razorbacks was something I had to carve up a bunch of extra bitz I had to buy on ebay for.

What they should have done is put the goddam options in the fething box in the first place. They knew what equipment it would have, is making a lasplas really that hard for them?

Completely agree, if they don't have an option in the kit then it should not be an option in the Codex. I like the direction they are moving towards.

I'm still going to hold out and keep my fingers crossed for some kind of schism along the way to at least put a flood wall up in front of the tide of 'Normal Marines are dead' which will give some hope to those who actually don't like or intend to use any of the new Primaris models, it will keep us valid even if they don't release new bigger shiny kits for them, and it will still give GW the option of making those upgrade kits for Imperial Fists, Raven Guard etc if they wanted to test the cash flow success of adding them to the 'normal' marine range.

Mini Marines forever!

 nerdfest09 wrote:
Mini Marines forever!

Ah, we're talking RTB01 marines? Right?

Jup, when GW brought those big plastic monstrosities in MK 7 they stopped supporting the good old Rogue Trader range.
Therefore I don't have high hopes for the midi marines. With the exception of Horus Heresy kits there surely won't be many new ones. Gone with the next edition? Guess a good part.

I still stay with my favourites since the late 80ies and will use them 'til the end.

Mini Marines forever!!




...ok and some giants mixed in.

Points per model plus points per weapon and consistent weapon stats (remember when the fear was that every unit's melta guns might have different rules) means that if anyone does want to come up with fan content like weapon options that aren't in the model kits, it's super easy to do so.

I like primaris marines, but I like the 40k codex structure a bit more than a heresy era 5 marine fire team with the same weapon approach. So I might make Primaris Tactical squads. intercessors with one heavy weapon, one special weapon, and a sergeant with wargear. We have the points lists and people I game with are cool, so why not?

Given how GW seems to be paying at least a little bit of attention, I bet a well done fan codex about primaris marines that form proper tactical, devastator and assault squads might actually be seen by them as a desire for more options.

Had I wished Codex: Space Marines just had that? Yes. Even if it would have caused a bunch of people to go "See GW is replacing normal marines with Primaris!" I still would prefer it.

overtyrant wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Unpopular opinion but...feth conversions. I absolutely HATED that the best equipment setups for thing like razorbacks was something I had to carve up a bunch of extra bitz I had to buy on ebay for.

What they should have done is put the goddam options in the fething box in the first place. They knew what equipment it would have, is making a lasplas really that hard for them?

Completely agree, if they don't have an option in the kit then it should not be an option in the Codex. I like the direction they are moving towards.

I'm not quite sure I can comprehend this "If I can't have trivially easy access to this, nobody should have access to it at all" attitude.

You don't like doing conversions, other people consider it a massive part of the hobby and perhaps even more importantly, people already have classic versions of this model with the discontinued part.

So the options are find classic model, convert classic option, ignore option. You want the alternative of remove option entirely so you don't even need to think about a potential minor inconvenience.

This isn't even a Chapterhouse relevant case! A company can always make off-brand weapon options for a kit, whether or not an official part exists or not!

I think there's a reasonable balance to be found with equipment options. I agree that the las/plas razorback thing was a problem for a long time, since that model hasn't been on sale for well over a decade. This was a particular problem under the last few editions, where las/plas has been clearly the best option. That's not the case any more.

But for characters, I think it's pretty bizarre to have so few options. They could easily be provided. And the options they do provide often make little sense.

Take the gravis captain and the normal captain, for example. The gravis guy comes with a boltstorm gauntlet and a master-crafted power sword, which he's unlikely to ever use - but still has to pay a bunch of points for.

Meanwhile the normal captain comes with the option of a power sword, but he can't have a master-crafted one, even though it's his only melee weapon. The models look basically the same, but the gravis guy has the version that causes two wounds.

Of course, a mini-captain is free to have any kind of melee weapon he likes.

A side effect of this is that loads of relics aren't available to the new guys. The teeth of terra replace a chainsword - which no primaris character has.

This applies to some of the chapter-specific relics too, but not to all of them. So Iron Hands primaris guys can't have the axe of medusa and raven guard can't have the raven's fury jump pack, but things like the salamander's mantle and the BT crusader's helm work fine. Crimson fists could potentially take the fist of vengeance, if they could get hold of the birthday space marine.

It all ends up being really random and incoherent. The justification about conversions really doesn't apply to infantry - where it's totally straightforward to swap weapons between models.

As an imperial fist player I keep on finding that my new toys are rubbish, or don't work, which kind of spoils it. I get a boring (though not terrible) chapter tactic, a relic bolt pistol, a stratagem that's clearly a waste of a CP and a weak warlord trait.

It also turns out that named characters have to take their chapter's special warlord trait. Lysander is therefore stuck with improving cover saves against AP-1 weapons - which of course does nothing for him at all. I think I'll probably just make somebody like a techmarine or lieutenant my warlord, so as to have a trait with any in-game effect.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
All the listed options for the units in the SM codex are all box content only. And only lists models GW currently produces. So things like Librarians on a bike arent listed. WHich has most of us panicked... but this article here tells us its fine to use the Index for any of our old Grandfathered in stuff....

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

But even that brings up a whole host of issues. Does that mean a Librarian on a Bike only has the three basic psyker powers and can't take Relics? What about points and rules adjustments, are they going to keep tweaking the index rules for units that appear in a full codex with less options? And it's hardly a positive move when a lot of folk were hoping they'd be using the codices to fix all the existing stupid arbitrary wargear limitations.

EDIT: LOL, it seems some people really will defend anything GW does

Marines are just being brought into line with other armies in terms of options or lack of the same

Its not a good thing but its GW army wide policy.

I was pretty excited for 8th but having now lost two models to my DA army (libby biker and rifleman dread) with my codex not even out yet, I'm going to have to shelve that project before I build another unit that stops existing (chaplain bikers? Terminator company master?).

I'd move on to my Tau but they will definitely be losing doubling up on the same weapons for crisis suits.

Maybe my Necrons? Nah, one time they lost an entire unit between 3rd and 5th...might happen again best to just wait and see what happens.

I'm getting too old to be more fustrated than happy with my hobby.

I do feel for my Space Marine brothers who are getting kicked in the balls with the lack of options for their characters. It's easy for me to ignore because I run predominantly Eldar and have for a long time (so I know I get a few weapon options and that's it). My Chaos Space marines are built to 2nd ed. rules and still basically fit with the current Chaos index, etc.

The no-model-no-rules (NMNR?) policy is really pretty awful. Sure, 3rd party models exist...and as soon as 3D printing becomes better/cheaper/more common the entire minis industry is in for some hurt (i.e. they'll have to actually price to be competitive), but the reality is that most modders/hackers/etc. use a lot of GW parts and want those models equipped with reasonable weapons. A captain should take anything in the marine inventory, etc.

It's another example of the awful mono-pose plastic $35 minis. At $35, the sprues might as well be a full half sleeve like a squad sized sprue...and bring the options. If you're going to make someone pay an egregious amount of money for a single figure - make that figure worth it. If a Captain's plastic kit had 3-4 heads/helmets, a dozen robe/tabard options, and 3-4 weapons per hand/arm, including shields, hammers, etc...it would actually be worth the money they ask for their single plastic kits. They did this with the particularly excellent older Warhammer wizard kit - $25 for two "build as you like" wizard plastics.

I don't think anyone will be flipping their desk and quitting as a result of this silliness, but future purchases and enthusiasm will definitely diminish and they're hurting the good reputation they've been slowly clawing back.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

At this point, games workshop should reduce the hassle they always bring upon themselves and release electronic Beta/Alpha versions of codex's. Yeah, some people will claim it will hurt their bottom line as people will just use the alpha/beta version in future with tweaks, but it would be far far far more professional in the current climate to do so. They are a smallish company, and make lots of mistakes, let the bloody community help you to proof read and spot those mistakes in the first place.

Or they could just release and charge for the full priced electronic version (iirc they don't discount the electronic versions at least on apple devices) and then have the community find the mistakes for them that they missed. After a week or two, they then print the physical codex. That might however make other folks angry who don't want to want for dead tree versions immediately despite them getting a better product in the end.

 warboss wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

At this point, games workshop should reduce the hassle they always bring upon themselves and release electronic Beta/Alpha versions of codex's. Yeah, some people will claim it will hurt their bottom line as people will just use the alpha/beta version in future with tweaks, but it would be far far far more professional in the current climate to do so. They are a smallish company, and make lots of mistakes, let the bloody community help you to proof read and spot those mistakes in the first place.

Or they could just release and charge for the full priced electronic version (iirc they don't discount the electronic versions at least on apple devices) and then have the community find the mistakes for them that they missed. After a week or two, they then print the physical codex. That might however make other folks angry who don't want to want for dead tree versions immediately despite them getting a better product in the end.

Yeah, this is certainly a better solution. Anyway, FAQ's should be for rule clarity, not wholesale errata in my opinion. They should reduce any ambiguity, not really add things that got missed as that's just unprofessional. The slight misspelled word here and there is allowable, omissions that can be spotted in 5 minutes should not get to the point where they are printed.

The only issue with that process though is how long the printing process takes, if the codex takes 3 months to make it to print after the electronic release then it may hurt their sales. To be fair though, I personally think GW should move away from printed books anyway, there really is no morale justification for them to be printed considering the environmental impact. They should lead the way for all companies. Considering most of their models are plastic as well, they really should look at all avenues to reduce their environmental impact. My own personal opinion though, if you like the paper codex's I'm not attacking you for liking and buying them, I just don't really think you should have the option too.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 warboss wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

At this point, games workshop should reduce the hassle they always bring upon themselves and release electronic Beta/Alpha versions of codex's. Yeah, some people will claim it will hurt their bottom line as people will just use the alpha/beta version in future with tweaks, but it would be far far far more professional in the current climate to do so. They are a smallish company, and make lots of mistakes, let the bloody community help you to proof read and spot those mistakes in the first place.

Or they could just release and charge for the full priced electronic version (iirc they don't discount the electronic versions at least on apple devices) and then have the community find the mistakes for them that they missed. After a week or two, they then print the physical codex. That might however make other folks angry who don't want to want for dead tree versions immediately despite them getting a better product in the end.

Yeah, this is certainly a better solution. Anyway, FAQ's should be for rule clarity, not wholesale errata in my opinion. They should reduce any ambiguity, not really add things that got missed as that's just unprofessional. The slight misspelled word here and there is allowable, omissions that can be spotted in 5 minutes should not get to the point where they are printed.

The only issue with that process though is how long the printing process takes, if the codex takes 3 months to make it to print after the electronic release then it may hurt their sales. To be fair though, I personally think GW should move away from printed books anyway, there really is no morale justification for them to be printed considering the environmental impact. They should lead the way for all companies. Considering most of their models are plastic as well, they really should look at all avenues to reduce their environmental impact. My own personal opinion though, if you like the paper codex's I'm not attacking you for liking and buying them, I just don't really think you should have the option too.

Uh, but you are attacking them by saying they shouldn't have the option to buy them...

I guess you expect every person ever to read the codex on a phone, which all have small screens and sucks to look stuff up on, or spend hundreds on a laptop or ipad like device? You do understand that the factories churning out electronics are not doing the environment any favors either right?

If there are errors to full on errata stuff like stats/weapons/points, then they should release a PDF of it to match the codex. Then you have the option to keep it on an electronic device or print it out.

Or they could, y'know, hire some *Inquisitors* instead of frickin' Orks...

*facepalm*

Mandragola wrote:

But for characters, I think it's pretty bizarre to have so few options. They could easily be provided. And the options they do provide often make little sense.

Take the gravis captain and the normal captain, for example. The gravis guy comes with a boltstorm gauntlet and a master-crafted power sword, which he's unlikely to ever use - but still has to pay a bunch of points for.

Meanwhile the normal captain comes with the option of a power sword, but he can't have a master-crafted one, even though it's his only melee weapon. The models look basically the same, but the gravis guy has the version that causes two wounds.

Of course, a mini-captain is free to have any kind of melee weapon he likes.

A side effect of this is that loads of relics aren't available to the new guys. The teeth of terra replace a chainsword - which no primaris character has.

This applies to some of the chapter-specific relics too, but not to all of them. So Iron Hands primaris guys can't have the axe of medusa and raven guard can't have the raven's fury jump pack, but things like the salamander's mantle and the BT crusader's helm work fine. Crimson fists could potentially take the fist of vengeance, if they could get hold of the birthday space marine.

It all ends up being really random and incoherent. The justification about conversions really doesn't apply to infantry - where it's totally straightforward to swap weapons between models.

Yeah, this. It has really dampened my enthusiasm to work on my new all-primaris chapter...

On the bright side, the Captain can take the Burning Blade for free. Str +2, AP -5, 1D weapon isn't that bad.

Our models haven't "technically" been invalidated. If you had read the article it even says if your unit isn't in the codex, it's because the codex shows new units and models AVAILABLE. Got everytbing else, use your index.

Sure this is annoying considering I didn't want to buy Imperium 1, and purposely waited for the Brand New book, but I hold the have thought it would be that easy! Kahn still rides. My awesome libby on a bike with actual psychic hood is still playable. We just need to carry around more stuff to do so.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Our models haven't "technically" been invalidated. If you had read the article it even says if your unit isn't in the codex, it's because the codex shows new units and models AVAILABLE. Got everytbing else, use your index.

Sure this is annoying considering I didn't want to buy Imperium 1, and purposely waited for the Brand New book, but I hold the have thought it would be that easy! Kahn still rides. My awesome libby on a bike with actual psychic hood is still playable. We just need to carry around more stuff to do so.

My Honour Guard, Rhino Primaris, and Chapter Champion necessitate me bringing the Index with. Not a huge deal by any means though.

The strangest omission is the Tyrannic War veterans, which are still available from GW!

Contact GW, voice your opinion

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
On the bright side, the Captain can take the Burning Blade for free. Str +2, AP -5, 1D weapon isn't that bad.

It's not good either, I'd take a thunder hammer or relic blade over it any day. AP -5 is pretty much useless, as most serious foes have some sort of invulnerable save and damage 1 just doesn't cut it against real opponents either.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Our models haven't "technically" been invalidated. If you had read the article it even says if your unit isn't in the codex, it's because the codex shows new units and models AVAILABLE. Got everytbing else, use your index.

Sure this is annoying considering I didn't want to buy Imperium 1, and purposely waited for the Brand New book, but I hold the have thought it would be that easy! Kahn still rides. My awesome libby on a bike with actual psychic hood is still playable. We just need to carry around more stuff to do so.

My Honour Guard, Rhino Primaris, and Chapter Champion necessitate me bringing the Index with. Not a huge deal by any means though.

Isn't the honor guard in the codex? Did they nerf the options list?

 warboss wrote:


Isn't the honor guard in the codex? Did they nerf the options list?

Apparently the options are gone. It's axe and that's it.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
On the bright side, the Captain can take the Burning Blade for free. Str +2, AP -5, 1D weapon isn't that bad.

Yes it is. Why would you need ap-5 ? Standard relic blade is way better.