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I would have thought all the pts cost would have been leaked by now.

So the arbitrary wargear bull gak from the Deathwatch Codex has found its way into Marines proper?

Wonderful...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So the arbitrary wargear bull gak from the Deathwatch Codex has found its way into Marines proper?

Wonderful...

It's been a thing for anyone not playing marines for years now. It was inevitable unfortunately :/

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So the arbitrary wargear bull gak from the Deathwatch Codex has found its way into Marines proper?

Wonderful...

There is a statement on the community site that you're free to use index entries for stuff that doesn't have non-index stats, but you really have to wonder how hard it was to copy and paste a few more dreadnought arm options.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is H.B.M.C. referencing?

Lack of customizable options or something?

I wonder if the internet had been as prevalent in the days of the 2nd to 3rd ed transitions, if the commentary would've been similar.

Orks especially would've seen a lot of "that's it, GW hates Orks and the old kits are just not going to be supported anymore"..
As a point in fact this was a true statement. I own a pretty decent collection of 2nd ed orks and I'm glad they phase out kits to be honest. Even the best 2nd ed Ork kits look really really wrong next to the current models (of any kind.. not just orks).

For too long, GW has known that the proportions on the Space marines were weird at best.. and while other companies are putting out more and more "realistic" kits, they were sticking to the goofy 80s-90s truncated heroic BS. They did reel the hand sizes in a bit but the weapons have also stayed pretty close to the oversized stuff they've been using forever as well.

Look at Blood Warriors for Fantasy next to some Khorne Berserkers. The berserkers look ridiculous. That's how I've seen regular Space Marines for some time. I'm sure eventually the mainstays like the Rhino and Land Raider etc will get "ported" to Primaris but I am hopeful that this will be in a year or two when they push to separate the Primaris from the regular marines. That, IMO will be the first step to the official phase out. Just remember that first, they have to do a phase in of the new product...


edit: changed the image once I found old school Marines vs New.. The change in size from those to the "modern" power armor is about the same as the change from "modern" to Primaris. A clear evolution and a move in the right direction to match them to their fluff of being about 1.5x the height of a man (ie an IG infantryman). Not my image.. it came up on a Google search.

All the listed options for the units in the SM codex are all box content only. And only lists models GW currently produces. So things like Librarians on a bike arent listed. WHich has most of us panicked... but this article here tells us its fine to use the Index for any of our old Grandfathered in stuff....

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Sooo... hypothetically if the "sergeants can't take combi weapons" thing is confirmed, and similarly if it's strictly true and the new tactical squad options don't allow certain heavy weapons, can I just technically run my tactical squads as Index versions instead?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Sooo... hypothetically if the "sergeants can't take combi weapons" thing is confirmed, and similarly if it's strictly true and the new tactical squad options don't allow certain heavy weapons, can I just technically run my tactical squads as Index versions instead?

If I'm reading correctly, you use the index datasheet if you want to use index combos of equipment, but use whatever the latest points values are for that index and equipment.

So if codex marines inexplicably raised twin heavy bolters to 72 points, you could have a dreadnought with a 72 point heavy bolter after cross referencing both books.

changemod wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Sooo... hypothetically if the "sergeants can't take combi weapons" thing is confirmed, and similarly if it's strictly true and the new tactical squad options don't allow certain heavy weapons, can I just technically run my tactical squads as Index versions instead?

If I'm reading correctly, you use the index datasheet if you want to use index combos of equipment, but use whatever the latest points values are for that index and equipment.

So if codex marines inexplicably raised twin heavy bolters to 72 points, you could have a dreadnought with a 72 point heavy bolter after cross referencing both books.

The FAQ pretty explicitly states that if something has a codex entry, you use the codex entry. The only time you can use an index entry is when it's a unit that is not represented in the codex. They also specify that that goes for matched play and any official events. Outside of that you are welcome to do what you like.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Sooo... hypothetically if the "sergeants can't take combi weapons" thing is confirmed, and similarly if it's strictly true and the new tactical squad options don't allow certain heavy weapons, can I just technically run my tactical squads as Index versions instead?

What? Tacticals marines are restricted and sargeants can't take combi weapons? They give you combi weapons in the kit! I can even understand the Heavy weapons one because they only give you the Rocket Launcher. But combis?!

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sales will determine the future. If people keep buying vanilla marines then they will continue, if people totally abandon vanilla marines for primaris then they will be phased out relatively quickly. Obviously the result will be somewhere in-between, so we'll see what it ends up as.

See this isn't realistic to expect of a company worrying about their future bottom line. They committed to this mess. My guess, so far the primaris stuff is VERY underwhelming on the table, so initial sales will look good then drop into the toilet at which time I expect a new marine codex that drops their points and probably makes them even better in order to spike sales again while not really giving the old marine the same attention which over time will cause them to wither on the vine.

I fully expect a marine codex every 2 years going forward. I mean we had barely 2 years between the 6th and 7th codexes and now less then that for the 8th. With each update I fully expect the new guys to creep ahead in rules edge as needed to boost sales.

It isn't realistic for a company to produce more of what's selling well, because of looking after it's bottom line.

I don't really have a response since that statement speaks for itself.

changemod wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Sooo... hypothetically if the "sergeants can't take combi weapons" thing is confirmed, and similarly if it's strictly true and the new tactical squad options don't allow certain heavy weapons, can I just technically run my tactical squads as Index versions instead?

If I'm reading correctly, you use the index datasheet if you want to use index combos of equipment, but use whatever the latest points values are for that index and equipment.

So if codex marines inexplicably raised twin heavy bolters to 72 points, you could have a dreadnought with a 72 point heavy bolter after cross referencing both books.

That's gotta be the dumbest thing gw has made its players do in recent history.

 Kirasu wrote:

changemod wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Sooo... hypothetically if the "sergeants can't take combi weapons" thing is confirmed, and similarly if it's strictly true and the new tactical squad options don't allow certain heavy weapons, can I just technically run my tactical squads as Index versions instead?

If I'm reading correctly, you use the index datasheet if you want to use index combos of equipment, but use whatever the latest points values are for that index and equipment.

So if codex marines inexplicably raised twin heavy bolters to 72 points, you could have a dreadnought with a 72 point heavy bolter after cross referencing both books.

That's gotta be the dumbest thing gw has made its players do in recent history.

That's not how I am understanding it. IMO, if the unit has options that you cannot build that unit with in the new codex, you use the entire unit from the index.. not just the wargear... though to be fair, the FAQ does say "model" so RAW it might be a case of buying the squad and adding in the non-codex model using the index cost for that one model.. Personally though.. yeah I would just build that entire unit from the index entry and call it a day.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Did they just say no Combi-grav on sergeants? I thought that was already part of the kit?

Sucks my Libby, Tech, Kahn, and brand new Apothecary on bike are unusable.

You should be able to use the Index for those.

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Did they just say no Combi-grav on sergeants? I thought that was already part of the kit?

Sucks my Libby, Tech, Kahn, and brand new Apothecary on bike are unusable.

You should be able to use the Index for those.

Why bother with a $50 hardback codex this soon after the index if all its going to do is take away options or send you back to the index. Why bother with codexes at all at that point , just update the indexes or include the rules for things in the index in the brand new codex. This feels so... much more money grubby then usual.

"Oh, you wanted to get the new codex, but didnt get the index prior? Hope you don't mind arbitrary restrictions, but, if you doooo.... you can always buy the index!"

I imagine Combi-Weapons are on the Sergeant Equipment list, seeing as the best combi weapons you can get are in the Tactical/Devastator kits.

I think some people are taking you for a laugh, unless they post pictures to prove otherwise...

If they really have made options from the Tac Squad box invalid then, well, that'll make it a bit easier to get rid of it when the complete phase-out of non-Primaris Marines is started.

Reese wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but what is H.B.M.C. referencing?

Lack of customizable options or something?

It's the knots GW's writers twisted themselves into with all the "can have/cannot have" nonsense in the Deathwatch Codex (a neat summary of which now exists in the Imperium I index).

Essentially it boils down to a list of utterly nonsensical restrictions (DW Chaplains cannot have Jump Packs, but can have Terminator Armour, and DW Librarians can have Terminator Armour, but not with X weapon combo, etc.) all because GW doesn't make that specific model for that (even though you could kitbash at all it without any trouble from all the compatible Marine kits).

I can understand GW not making rules to parts that they literally dont' sell. But... why ban conversions that you can do with their kits? Yeah, somebody is gonna buy those parts from a bitz seller. Or from Ebay, etc... but even if just one person buy another box to do the conversion... thats a win. Even those bitz resellers or Ebay resellers have bought you the original box.

But if you ban the option, then all those sales are lost.

 Galas wrote:
I can understand GW not making rules to parts that they literally dont' sell. But... why ban conversions that you can do with their kits? Yeah, somebody is gonna buy those parts from a bitz seller. Or from Ebay, etc... but even if just one person buy another box to do the conversion... thats a win. Even those bitz resellers or Ebay resellers have bought you the original box.

But if you ban the option, then all those sales are lost.

It's also bad for the game & the community to remove those options. Not a good move by GW.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sales will determine the future. If people keep buying vanilla marines then they will continue, if people totally abandon vanilla marines for primaris then they will be phased out relatively quickly. Obviously the result will be somewhere in-between, so we'll see what it ends up as.

See this isn't realistic to expect of a company worrying about their future bottom line. They committed to this mess. My guess, so far the primaris stuff is VERY underwhelming on the table, so initial sales will look good then drop into the toilet at which time I expect a new marine codex that drops their points and probably makes them even better in order to spike sales again while not really giving the old marine the same attention which over time will cause them to wither on the vine.

I fully expect a marine codex every 2 years going forward. I mean we had barely 2 years between the 6th and 7th codexes and now less then that for the 8th. With each update I fully expect the new guys to creep ahead in rules edge as needed to boost sales.

It isn't realistic for a company to produce more of what's selling well, because of looking after it's bottom line.

I don't really have a response since that statement speaks for itself.

Sure if you misunderstand what I was saying. If you think they won't alter rules to push models if they are in the way then your kidding yourself.

 Galas wrote:
I can understand GW not making rules to parts that they literally dont' sell. But... why ban conversions that you can do with their kits? Yeah, somebody is gonna buy those parts from a bitz seller. Or from Ebay, etc... but even if just one person buy another box to do the conversion... thats a win. Even those bitz resellers or Ebay resellers have bought you the original box.

But if you ban the option, then all those sales are lost.

Where are conversions banned?
Is this more speculation about options being "left out"? If so, it's already been pointed out that the FAQ says if the options aren't in the codex, freely use the ones in the index. Is that ideal? No.. it's an expensive codex, everything should be in it. I played Dethskullz in 3rd ed orks. Cross referencing codices has been part of the game for me since go time. It's part of the reason I don't want the price to normalize so high.

Anyway.. if it's not that and I missed something saying "all conversions are hereby banned" or whatever, then please point me to that so I can give GW the finger and be done with them. Otherwise, please read the FAQ.

It's not speculation, as I already said earlier, this is nothing new to anyone that already has a xenos army through the transition from 5th ed to 7th ed codexes. If parts are not in a units kit, then you can't use parts from other kits in the same line even. It doesn't prove old marines are doomed, it's just the way things work now. If I had to guess it is in response to second hand bits peddlers on ebay.

And using the index is not a reasonable solution. It creates a major mess of the codexes right out the gate.

 Galas wrote:
I can understand GW not making rules to parts that they literally dont' sell. But... why ban conversions that you can do with their kits? Yeah, somebody is gonna buy those parts from a bitz seller. Or from Ebay, etc... but even if just one person buy another box to do the conversion... thats a win. Even those bitz resellers or Ebay resellers have bought you the original box.

But if you ban the option, then all those sales are lost.

Unpopular opinion but...feth conversions. I absolutely HATED that the best equipment setups for thing like razorbacks was something I had to carve up a bunch of extra bitz I had to buy on ebay for.

What they should have done is put the goddam options in the fething box in the first place. They knew what equipment it would have, is making a lasplas really that hard for them?

Haven't they been saying since they released the indexes that they included models no longer produced or would not be in the codex?

Can't say for sure, but sounds like this was coming and they made note of it.

 Red Corsair wrote:
It's not speculation, as I already said earlier, this is nothing new to anyone that already has a xenos army through the transition from 5th ed to 7th ed codexes. If parts are not in a units kit, then you can't use parts from other kits in the same line even. It doesn't prove old marines are doomed, it's just the way things work now. If I had to guess it is in response to second hand bits peddlers on ebay.

And using the index is not a reasonable solution. It creates a major mess of the codexes right out the gate.

I didn't say it was reasonable, I said it was the solution they've presented..

What do you mean you can't use the bits? I'm already in the middle of converting my Primaris Marines with Dark Angel plastics and other bits that are even older to make them into Black Templars.. This will include me converting P marines into a Chaplain and an Apothecary.. My orks have conversions with bits going back to 2nd edition on the newest kits.. There's 3rd party kits all over the place. Are you saying it's not physically possible to do these conversions, or that rules don't support the use of this equipment (entries not in the lists), or that they won't be allowed in certain events/venues? I'm genuinely not sure what exactly you're trying to say.. because the first two of those possibilities are a)a matter of creativity and shopping on ebay and b)already mentioned as being available via the index (sorry but this is true even if it's not ideal). So really that leaves the third option.. which.. I would be dumbfounded if an event didn't allow conversions... Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying but it sounds a bit like doom and gloom..

EDIT: As a matter of fact, the point that GW made the Primaris heads and shoulder pads (and backpacks and fists really) interchangeable says that they intend for conversions to be done.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sales will determine the future. If people keep buying vanilla marines then they will continue, if people totally abandon vanilla marines for primaris then they will be phased out relatively quickly. Obviously the result will be somewhere in-between, so we'll see what it ends up as.

See this isn't realistic to expect of a company worrying about their future bottom line. They committed to this mess. My guess, so far the primaris stuff is VERY underwhelming on the table, so initial sales will look good then drop into the toilet at which time I expect a new marine codex that drops their points and probably makes them even better in order to spike sales again while not really giving the old marine the same attention which over time will cause them to wither on the vine.

I fully expect a marine codex every 2 years going forward. I mean we had barely 2 years between the 6th and 7th codexes and now less then that for the 8th. With each update I fully expect the new guys to creep ahead in rules edge as needed to boost sales.

It isn't realistic for a company to produce more of what's selling well, because of looking after it's bottom line.

I don't really have a response since that statement speaks for itself.

Sure if you misunderstand what I was saying. If you think they won't alter rules to push models if they are in the way then your kidding yourself.

So GW uses rules to push models, which is why the new models are widely considered weaker than the ones people already have.

Again, that comes across as rather silly.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sales will determine the future. If people keep buying vanilla marines then they will continue, if people totally abandon vanilla marines for primaris then they will be phased out relatively quickly. Obviously the result will be somewhere in-between, so we'll see what it ends up as.

See this isn't realistic to expect of a company worrying about their future bottom line. They committed to this mess. My guess, so far the primaris stuff is VERY underwhelming on the table, so initial sales will look good then drop into the toilet at which time I expect a new marine codex that drops their points and probably makes them even better in order to spike sales again while not really giving the old marine the same attention which over time will cause them to wither on the vine.

I fully expect a marine codex every 2 years going forward. I mean we had barely 2 years between the 6th and 7th codexes and now less then that for the 8th. With each update I fully expect the new guys to creep ahead in rules edge as needed to boost sales.

It isn't realistic for a company to produce more of what's selling well, because of looking after it's bottom line.

I don't really have a response since that statement speaks for itself.

Sure if you misunderstand what I was saying. If you think they won't alter rules to push models if they are in the way then your kidding yourself.

So GW uses rules to push models, which is why the new models are widely considered weaker than the ones people already have.

Again, that comes across as rather silly.

Well they had 2 chances now, one small (index) and one large (codex) to make primaries good and the go to models/units but they really aren't.

Some things got a few options and points reduction, but over all it's overcoasted and just plain better options out there.

Redemptor- crap compared to normal dread. Normal dread won't get its stats worsen through the game, yet still has same star and toughness. Leviathan and contempor and just better

Reivers - really a joke for a cc unit they consider to be a monster in cc. It has a combat blade, wooooo boy, deadly. Yet it talks about it in the fluff as a blade that is like a power sword.

Repulsor- expensive transport is mediocre guns that in the end makes it slightly cheaper then a leaned raider but doesn't have a 2+ save or 16 wounds. And as usual, over coasted.

Interceptors - on release a total joke at 225 for 3 of them. Seems they went down from what I could make out in the vid, but still to expensive for what they do.

Out of it all, Aggressors seem to be the best thing they got at least on paper. Time will tell.

Voss wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Why does the primeris chaplain have a chaos rod of torment like Fabius bile ?

Because he is a necromancer. Robed, and raising his skull wand, with the wheel of pain circling his head with pure force of his blasphemous powers.



That quote about not worrying about future releases is a bit tone deaf and annoying. There are still xenos in this game, and they need a lot more work than the hordes of marines, spiky, shiny, or not. Or their auxiliaries.

Sisters of Battle would like to issue a universal 'Come at me bro!' To anyone who would dare to challenge them in the 'who needs an update the most' Olympics.

Waaa Ork's plastics are old! Waaaaaaa Some Eldar stuff is finecast! Waaaaa guard plastics look weird! Pffft...

Any of the reviews/leaks show a shot of the Intercessors Codex entry? Only one of the Primaris unit entries I don't believe I've seen yet.