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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
if you like the paper codex's I'm not attacking you for liking and buying them, I just don't really think you should have the option too.

If there were no books, I would not be in the hobby at all. Just one man's thought (and a man who is a treehugger at heart at that), but while digital items may have the same art and words, they are not the same product as books. Books matter to me.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
From the FAQ
so a Libby on a bike would use the point from the codex.
more fething confusion

Nightlord1987 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
From the FAQ
so a Libby on a bike would use the point from the codex.
more fething confusion

Well in this case the most recent entry for Librarian on bike would be its cost listed in the index without wargear. Then you add in the wargear cost from the codex. There is a slight method to the madness.

If you read it more closely, it says to buy the entire model from the index.. So the entry from P15 in the index is what you would go on for that unit in your army.


For anyone confused about this, it's no different from previous editions where Space Wolves would buy an Exterminator from an IG book or an Inquisitorial force would select their units from IG or Space Marine books.. You use it for the units' stats, points, etc.. but otherwise it's going to follow the codex rules for the army. My Deathskullz had rules for units from the Space Marine and IG codex.. that's 3 codices and a Chapter Approved article I used to run that army. It still followed all the rules from the Ork army though.

Regardless...that does not bode well for the future of those models. And once again we're heading down the "buy six books to run my army" route which is pretty crap.

 Nuclear Mekanik wrote:

For a lot of people part of the hobby is building cool models, out of loads of parts, be that kitbashing GW stuff or using scratch built or 3rd party parts. I understand the urge to squash some of the 3rd party market, but not so much the ebay bits market - ebay bits have already been sold by GW. For me 40k is often about building something cool (Blanchitsu style) out of my bitz box collected and amassed over 2 decades, and then finding rules that fit it so I can play it down at a local friendly club.

If 40k becomes about building kits direct from the box and playing my opponent's identical models, then I'm fully out.

Units having all of their options in the box in no way prevents you from kitbashing or converting them. It just means that for those people who don't want to do those things, they can still have fully functional units.

 insaniak wrote:

 Nuclear Mekanik wrote:

For a lot of people part of the hobby is building cool models, out of loads of parts, be that kitbashing GW stuff or using scratch built or 3rd party parts. I understand the urge to squash some of the 3rd party market, but not so much the ebay bits market - ebay bits have already been sold by GW. For me 40k is often about building something cool (Blanchitsu style) out of my bitz box collected and amassed over 2 decades, and then finding rules that fit it so I can play it down at a local friendly club.

If 40k becomes about building kits direct from the box and playing my opponent's identical models, then I'm fully out.

Units having all of their options in the box in no way prevents you from kitbashing or converting them. It just means that for those people who don't want to do those things, they can still have fully functional units.

So my Primaris captain can have a powerfist if I put one on it? No, then you can only superficially change a model and thus they are all still the same. Different load outs meant that unless you went with a "net build" you rarely encountered the exact same character as your own.

Eh, I get the idea, but GW's kitbashing thing has been part of the company/games' identity for so long that I think that switching that is altering a notable aspect of their company. Not a huge one, but I think for the worse.

As others have mentioned, more accessory sprues seem like they would have been a much better answer, so people without a broad array of bits have options, and people who do have some new ones.

GAdvance wrote:


Fairly sure that's been done so as to make the primaris something other than just 'big marines', they have mono unit options to harken back to guillimans days of the great crusade and the heresy

What are you talking about? Mono unit options were only a thing for a few of the units and certainly did not apply to the captain character units. There is no reason to try to come up with so many excuses for gws behavior.

It's a bad decision and doing so only hurts players.

 Elbows wrote:
Regardless...that does not bode well for the future of those models. And once again we're heading down the "buy six books to run my army" route which is pretty crap.

Basically this, Mlaw.

I can understand that I can use the Index to use all of the options of my Tactical Squad. But loosing all the freedom to choose options for my squads... I understand, yes. That was a Space Marine thing, other armies haven't had that privilege. But still sucks. Not right now, because I can still use the index. But in 2-3 years? I doubt that.

I really don't like the "All the squad has the same weapon" thing of Primaris that they are pushing so hard from the Horus Heresy game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Regardless...that does not bode well for the future of those models. And once again we're heading down the "buy six books to run my army" route which is pretty crap.

Basically this, Mlaw.

I can understand that I can use the Index to use all of the options of my Tactical Squad. But loosing all the freedom to choose options for my squads... I understand, yes. That was a Space Marine thing, other armies haven't had that privilege. But still sucks. Not right now, because I can still use the index. But in 2-3 years? I doubt that.

I really don't like the "All the squad has the same weapon" thing of Primaris that they are pushing so hard from the Horus Heresy game.

How is this any different from when they switched from 3rd ed "anything goes" style list building where you just had an open-ended armory.. then the next edition you ONLY had what was available? It's not. As to doubting what will happen in 2-3 years.. WTF.. do you worry about everything that "might" happen in the future instead of just enjoying what is happening right now? Seriously.. you have the options now.. enjoy them. Make sure you send GW a little note saying how cool it is that you can still use those options and how bad it would be if you lost those options. They claim they're listening. So either send them an e-mail or just keep complaining on a forum so that when they never heard your opinion and take away the options you can say "ha.. see!". Either way, this whole discussion is ridiculous.

EDIT: The quoting function has gone bananas.. I'm not really sure what has happened but it's some sort of strange mutant beast with repeats of things I said. I tried to fix it and think it got worse but I think the body of what I was saying is more or less intact.

overtyrant wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Unpopular opinion but...feth conversions. I absolutely HATED that the best equipment setups for thing like razorbacks was something I had to carve up a bunch of extra bitz I had to buy on ebay for.

What they should have done is put the goddam options in the fething box in the first place. They knew what equipment it would have, is making a lasplas really that hard for them?

Completely agree, if they don't have an option in the kit then it should not be an option in the Codex. I like the direction they are moving towards.

Why would you possibly think that?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Thommy H wrote:
Please can people make up their minds whether they're mad that the Index they paid for is being replaced after a month or mad that they'll actually need to refer to that Index for legacy options not included in the Codex.

Look I'm all for pointing out excessive negativity, but people wanting all the rules for a faction contained in a single book is not an unreasonable request.

I honestly don't care if the rules are in a book.

Give me an app that's officially supported with all data sheets and an army builder. Push updates there whenever there's an FAQ. Release the books in an attempt to get everything right on paper, but embrace the future GDub. The future is digital, and it's way, way more flexible for balancing tweaks and new model releases.

 MLaw wrote:

LOL.. what? A Primaris Captain with Power Fist is a thing.

Not in the codex it isn't.

Sure, there most likely will be rules supplied with this limited edition model, so the loadout will be legal eventually. You probably still won't be able to mix and match, so no plasma pistol & sword or fist & rifle.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sales will determine the future. If people keep buying vanilla marines then they will continue, if people totally abandon vanilla marines for primaris then they will be phased out relatively quickly. Obviously the result will be somewhere in-between, so we'll see what it ends up as.

See this isn't realistic to expect of a company worrying about their future bottom line. They committed to this mess. My guess, so far the primaris stuff is VERY underwhelming on the table, so initial sales will look good then drop into the toilet at which time I expect a new marine codex that drops their points and probably makes them even better in order to spike sales again while not really giving the old marine the same attention which over time will cause them to wither on the vine.

I fully expect a marine codex every 2 years going forward. I mean we had barely 2 years between the 6th and 7th codexes and now less then that for the 8th. With each update I fully expect the new guys to creep ahead in rules edge as needed to boost sales.

It isn't realistic for a company to produce more of what's selling well, because of looking after it's bottom line.

I don't really have a response since that statement speaks for itself.

Sure if you misunderstand what I was saying. If you think they won't alter rules to push models if they are in the way then your kidding yourself.

So GW uses rules to push models, which is why the new models are widely considered weaker than the ones people already have.

Again, that comes across as rather silly.

You really do misrepresenting my point. They are not good currently, but expect them to get wildly better in game as needed to kerep their sales higher then the originals. It's not a hard concept to grasp if you actually pay attention.

So there is no evidence to prove I'm somehow wrong, but there will be! How silly of me to suggest that if people keep buying a product, GW will keep selling it!

Please stop. Your not even reading what I am posting.

Sorry Mlaw, I agree with you. In many cases I have literally just said to others what you have said to me. I have already emailed GW about this, so at least I have write them my concerns.

And no, this isn't different than what you are describing from past editions. Still, it sucks

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Thommy H wrote:
Please can people make up their minds whether they're mad that the Index they paid for is being replaced after a month or mad that they'll actually need to refer to that Index for legacy options not included in the Codex.

Look I'm all for pointing out excessive negativity, but people wanting all the rules for a faction contained in a single book is not an unreasonable request.

This we can agree on. Unbelievably shady move by GW, either remove it or put it in codex proper, they are trying to play it both ways here.

 warboss wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

This is completely wrong. They are setting it up to be ran by datasheets. Datasheets do not require an index, codex, or anything. The datasheets will come from official box sets only. The index entries are just serving as a holdover for the datasheets. They go out of their way to explain this and again everyone demonstrates that they are unwilling to read or just don't understand what GW is saying.

So your solution is to buy more models to get datasheets for models you already have.

If you already have the models, you should already have the Index.

If you don't have the models, you will get the rules with them. If the Index goes OOP, the only rules you will lose access to as a result are the ones for models you cannot buy any more.

So exactly 0 issues here unless you just want to make gak up to rage at GW.

Lemondish wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Thommy H wrote:
Please can people make up their minds whether they're mad that the Index they paid for is being replaced after a month or mad that they'll actually need to refer to that Index for legacy options not included in the Codex.

Look I'm all for pointing out excessive negativity, but people wanting all the rules for a faction contained in a single book is not an unreasonable request.

I honestly don't care if the rules are in a book.

Give me an app that's officially supported with all data sheets and an army builder. Push updates there whenever there's an FAQ. Release the books in an attempt to get everything right on paper, but embrace the future GDub. The future is digital, and it's way, way more flexible for balancing tweaks and new model releases.

I agree this would be the ideal way forward.

 Crimson wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

LOL.. what? A Primaris Captain with Power Fist is a thing.

Not in the codex it isn't.

Sure, there most likely will be rules supplied with this limited edition model, so the loadout will be legal eventually. You probably still won't be able to mix and match, so no plasma pistol & sword or fist & rifle.

I have mine on order
Sorry, that was bad.. but something tells me the datacards will be made available with the 40k version of the General's compendium. They said in the build up to 8th ed that they planned on following that model.. and something about just releasing the datasheets. I can't remember where they said that but it seems like it was a video and not an article. As to whether or not the loadout will be legal.. Who knows? What I do know is a few days ago everyone was CERTAIN that Reivers were terrible scout-type troops with no infiltrate or deep strike.. Oh wait.. what's that? Yup.. they've got both options. So instead of just jumping to the worst conclusion.. a wait and see might be appropriate.


RE: Wanting stuff to all be in one codex - Yes. I agree with this. Again.. 100% especially for how much they're charging. IF they want to do little supplemental things down the line or not include everything then the price definitely should be closer to the older $25-$30 banding. Instead they've fluffed the book with filler and split things out to add volume IMO.. It's dirty and I think they're taking advantage of the hype they've created. Fostering goodwill and using the excitement from it to numb the buying decisions.. I'm not a fan of that sort of practice.. it's like EA and their DLC shenanigans.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sales will determine the future. If people keep buying vanilla marines then they will continue, if people totally abandon vanilla marines for primaris then they will be phased out relatively quickly. Obviously the result will be somewhere in-between, so we'll see what it ends up as.

See this isn't realistic to expect of a company worrying about their future bottom line. They committed to this mess. My guess, so far the primaris stuff is VERY underwhelming on the table, so initial sales will look good then drop into the toilet at which time I expect a new marine codex that drops their points and probably makes them even better in order to spike sales again while not really giving the old marine the same attention which over time will cause them to wither on the vine.

I fully expect a marine codex every 2 years going forward. I mean we had barely 2 years between the 6th and 7th codexes and now less then that for the 8th. With each update I fully expect the new guys to creep ahead in rules edge as needed to boost sales.

It isn't realistic for a company to produce more of what's selling well, because of looking after it's bottom line.

I don't really have a response since that statement speaks for itself.

Sure if you misunderstand what I was saying. If you think they won't alter rules to push models if they are in the way then your kidding yourself.

So GW uses rules to push models, which is why the new models are widely considered weaker than the ones people already have.

Again, that comes across as rather silly.

You really do misrepresenting my point. They are not good currently, but expect them to get wildly better in game as needed to kerep their sales higher then the originals. It's not a hard concept to grasp if you actually pay attention.

So there is no evidence to prove I'm somehow wrong, but there will be! How silly of me to suggest that if people keep buying a product, GW will keep selling it!

Please stop. Your not even reading what I am posting.

No, you should stop. I understand what you are saying, but you are not reading my responses. I asserted that if people continue to buy vanilla marines GW will continue to sell vanilla marines, that you disagreed with that is so nonsensical that I have no response beyond humor.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

This is completely wrong. They are setting it up to be ran by datasheets. Datasheets do not require an index, codex, or anything. The datasheets will come from official box sets only. The index entries are just serving as a holdover for the datasheets. They go out of their way to explain this and again everyone demonstrates that they are unwilling to read or just don't understand what GW is saying.

So your solution is to buy more models to get datasheets for models you already have.

If you already have the models, you should already have the Index.

If you don't have the models, you will get the rules with them. If the Index goes OOP, the only rules you will lose access to as a result are the ones for models you cannot buy any more.

So exactly 0 issues here unless you just want to make gak up to rage at GW.

I should already have the index? Did I miss an email list signup to get it sent to me free? I didn't realize my 2nd-6th edition models would come with the future rules for free.

I skipped the index because I wanted to buy the codex and have a single source for my models which I think is reasonable one month into a new edition. Unfortunately, that won't apparently work and we're already back to multiple books for one complete army the month after the new edition. That's not "making gak up to rage at GW" but rather simply pointing out a situation that I find to be much less than satisfactory. You may not care but that doesn't give you the right to just make gak up.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

overtyrant wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Unpopular opinion but...feth conversions. I absolutely HATED that the best equipment setups for thing like razorbacks was something I had to carve up a bunch of extra bitz I had to buy on ebay for.

What they should have done is put the goddam options in the fething box in the first place. They knew what equipment it would have, is making a lasplas really that hard for them?

Completely agree, if they don't have an option in the kit then it should not be an option in the Codex. I like the direction they are moving towards.

Why would you possibly think that?

Because they're a jerks for making me buy more bits and carve open my fingers just because a LasPlas is the most efficient weapon to equip a razorback with. Converting things is fun for some people but for people like me it's annoying bullgak that GW uses to force people to buy more kits.

To be clear though the correct option was to add more to the kit not to remove options. That was also stupid.

ERJAK wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

overtyrant wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Unpopular opinion but...feth conversions. I absolutely HATED that the best equipment setups for thing like razorbacks was something I had to carve up a bunch of extra bitz I had to buy on ebay for.

What they should have done is put the goddam options in the fething box in the first place. They knew what equipment it would have, is making a lasplas really that hard for them?

Completely agree, if they don't have an option in the kit then it should not be an option in the Codex. I like the direction they are moving towards.

Why would you possibly think that?

Because they're a jerks for making me buy more bits and carve open my fingers just because a LasPlas is the most efficient weapon to equip a razorback with. Converting things is fun for some people but for people like me it's annoying bullgak that GW uses to force people to buy more kits.

Not all conversions are about netlist/optimized builds. Sometimes you want to convert a Blood Warrior to a Berserker or Flagellants to cultists. Sometimes you want to put a pirate hat on an ork and make his battlewagon look like a pirate ship and yell Waaaargh Matey every time you move that ship.. then make cannon noises when it rolls to hit (hm.. maybe I've had too much caffeine).

 MLaw wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

overtyrant wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Unpopular opinion but...feth conversions. I absolutely HATED that the best equipment setups for thing like razorbacks was something I had to carve up a bunch of extra bitz I had to buy on ebay for.

What they should have done is put the goddam options in the fething box in the first place. They knew what equipment it would have, is making a lasplas really that hard for them?

Completely agree, if they don't have an option in the kit then it should not be an option in the Codex. I like the direction they are moving towards.

Why would you possibly think that?

Because they're a jerks for making me buy more bits and carve open my fingers just because a LasPlas is the most efficient weapon to equip a razorback with. Converting things is fun for some people but for people like me it's annoying bullgak that GW uses to force people to buy more kits.

Not all conversions are about netlist/optimized builds. Sometimes you want to convert a Blood Warrior to a Berserker or Flagellants to cultists. Sometimes you want to put a pirate hat on an ork and make his battlewagon look like a pirate ship and yell Waaaargh Matey every time you move that ship.. then make cannon noises when it rolls to hit (hm.. maybe I've had too much caffeine).

Yes, and what's to stop you from doing that?
There's nothing stopping you from converting.
Its just that they appear to be removing options that require converting. Nothing forbids conversions in general.

I think what GW should do is supply additional options and put out upgrade packs that can be used, Forge world has the right idea, you can go there and order a sprue with a buncha differant weapons on it. if GW produced a box that say had 5 combi weapons, 5 power swords, 5 power axes, 5 power mauls, 5 power spears, a few storm shields and maybe some varient heads and shoulder pads. I bet it'd be a pretty big seller.

another thing is to give us a Primairs HQ pack ala the old space marine commander pack, (heck give each army a HQ pack like that)

 MLaw wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

overtyrant wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Unpopular opinion but...feth conversions. I absolutely HATED that the best equipment setups for thing like razorbacks was something I had to carve up a bunch of extra bitz I had to buy on ebay for.

What they should have done is put the goddam options in the fething box in the first place. They knew what equipment it would have, is making a lasplas really that hard for them?

Completely agree, if they don't have an option in the kit then it should not be an option in the Codex. I like the direction they are moving towards.

Why would you possibly think that?

Because they're a jerks for making me buy more bits and carve open my fingers just because a LasPlas is the most efficient weapon to equip a razorback with. Converting things is fun for some people but for people like me it's annoying bullgak that GW uses to force people to buy more kits.

Not all conversions are about netlist/optimized builds. Sometimes you want to convert a Blood Warrior to a Berserker or Flagellants to cultists. Sometimes you want to put a pirate hat on an ork and make his battlewagon look like a pirate ship and yell Waaaargh Matey every time you move that ship.. then make cannon noises when it rolls to hit (hm.. maybe I've had too much caffeine).

Those things have precisely jack gak to do with what comes in the box. Also, side not, YOU want to do those things, which is fine. I NEVER want to convert ANYTHING because I HATE it, which is also fine.

What should be in the box is everything that they can be equipped with. When there is a disagreement between what is available in the kit and what options the unit has, they should have pre-planned better and made the kit correctly in the first place. Carving down the options is asinine, but forcing me to buy 8 kits or forgeworld to make a dreadnought with 2 heavy flamers or 2 autocannons is also stupid.

Yeah, I see people complaining about options "being removed" and I see people complaining about having to convert things because those options are still there and people complaining about not being able to convert things..

This is clearly GW having to re-take the Kobayashi Maru to prove the new leadership is competent to command a Starfleet vessel.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

So my Primaris captain can have a powerfist if I put one on it? No, then you can only superficially change a model and thus they are all still the same. Different load outs meant that unless you went with a "net build" you rarely encountered the exact same character as your own.

You're conflating two separate issues here. Obviously having more options available rules wise results in more options for building.

What I was responding to, though, was the claim that having all of the options in the box somehow removes the ability to customise units. It doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:
Yeah, I see people complaining about options "being removed" and I see people complaining about having to convert things because those options are still there and people complaining about not being able to convert things..

This is clearly GW having to re-take the Kobayashi Maru to prove the new leadership is competent to command a Starfleet vessel.

Except that in this situation, there is a way they can win: give units options, and include those options in the box.

 insaniak wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

So my Primaris captain can have a powerfist if I put one on it? No, then you can only superficially change a model and thus they are all still the same. Different load outs meant that unless you went with a "net build" you rarely encountered the exact same character as your own.

You're conflating two separate issues here. Obviously having more options available rules wise results in more options for building.

What I was responding to, though, was the claim that having all of the options in the box somehow removes the ability to customise units. It doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:
Yeah, I see people complaining about options "being removed" and I see people complaining about having to convert things because those options are still there and people complaining about not being able to convert things..

This is clearly GW having to re-take the Kobayashi Maru to prove the new leadership is competent to command a Starfleet vessel.

Except that in this situation, there is a way they can win: give units options, and include those options in the box.

You would think that.. except people who already bought the units would suddenly bitch because now they don't have those options but the options exist and are better than what they have.. OR.. they would claim that these options are going to make the options they paid good money for obsolete.. OR.. they will claim that it's an excuse for GW to raise the prices or make people buy new books.. etc etc.. This thread has shown me that it doesn't matter which way they go.. SOMEONE will find something wrong with it. I don't agree with blindly supporting things but come on.. that doesn't mean you have to go exactly polar opposite and be cynical about everything does it (not you specifically.. ).

EDIT: For the record.. if you have the index, you have the rules for the things in the box (unless I missed something but I asked earlier in the thread and nobody gave me a specific example). Also, when GW DOES have rules for things that are no longer in production to try to do a solid for the people who have the old models, it creates the exact situation we have now. Are the just supposed to keep making EVERYTHING forever and always? They've already demonstrated that they just will not do this.

There is logic that for a new player they will likely not miss what they never had, but some units do have more options that realistically needed. Does a tactical squad need that many heavy weapon options? I get that it's nice to have them but I'm talking about a need.

By contrast sergeants and characters etc. In my eyes should always have the options even if the kit doesn't. That model is meant to be the player narritavely, they're the units that give the army it's flavour.

Mlaw you have a very forward thinking practical perspective, I agree it's not feasible for them to support none produced options forever, but in that case the indexes should simply never go away either. Maybe once the codex are out, strip it to none codex entries/options and call it an archive index or something, existing purely for those relevant but not mandatory to use the army.