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 Galas wrote:

And Primaris Marines have it buil into the fluff that they follow the Horus Heresy style of a squad all having the same weapon. Wheres the difference?

Tau historically didn't have the option overall (with some obvious exceptions). Space Marines traditionally did (except for a few exceptions). See the difference? The two situations are pretty much polar opposites historically and the new units (and likely all units going forward since I suspect there won't be many or maybe any normal marine kits) defy that decades old expectation.

 warboss wrote:

 Galas wrote:

And Primaris Marines have it buil into the fluff that they follow the Horus Heresy style of a squad all having the same weapon. Wheres the difference?

Tau historically didn't have the option overall (with some obvious exceptions). Space Marines traditionally did (except for a few exceptions). See the difference? The two situations are pretty much polar opposites historically and the new units (and likely all units going forward since I suspect there won't be many or maybe any normal marine kits) defy that decades old expectation.

Look, I prefer the choice to have special weapons in my squads. But I think people is making this as some kind of "GW want your dudes to be all the same so they made cheaper sprues!" and for me isn't like that. In Age of Sigmar, many, for not saying every new kit has a variety of weapons in the new models, and some kind of special weapons (Of the type "You can choose 1 X for every 5 models in your unit). Kharadron Overlords have a weapon variety that hasn't has existed never in Fantasy or AOS prior to their appareance.

So the lack of weapon variety in Primaris, I firmly believe is in a attempt to not just pase out the old Space Marine kits, and make them different units in their own. Not some GW evil moneygrab strategy.

We know there's a Primaris Captain with plasma pistol coming.

 Vertrucio wrote:
We know there's a Primaris Captain with plasma pistol coming.

Store birthday model, plasma pistol and powerfist. Quite a bit easier on the eye than the general sale primaris captain.

 warboss wrote:
The only real exceptions that I can think of were Eldar and Tau.

Adding to that, Eldar have always focused on specialists but still got decent options for their line troops (a half-dozen heavy weapons; the option to buy and upgrade a warlock) while their exarches traditionally had some decent selection options, even if not easily modeled; the Tau iconic battlesuits also have a ton of options with really only their most basic line troops not having them.

If I wasn't irritated about the fluff and scale with the Primaris marines, the lack of options is a real impediment to my interest, from both modeling and gaming perspectives.

 Bull0 wrote:

Fine, I retract it, I'm not allowed to rip the piss out of my own laziness because Yodhrin finds that offensive. I clearly wasn't calling Yod autistic neither would I do so.

If you're incapable of grasping why it's not cool to go around casually using a disorder that feths up the lives of a lot of people to "rip the piss", you're very likely a lost cause, but lets have a go - take whatever sentiment you were about to use a mental health disorder to express or take the piss out of, and imagine yourself doing something similar with a physical disability. "I'd go to the store for some milk, but I'm so lazy I might as well be a cripple, lol". Then, assuming it's not beyond you, try imagining what it would be like for that kind of behaviour to be commonplace, and to be a person with a physical disability constantly finding their condition equated with whatever negative character trait crossed someone's mind. The reason I keep going with the physical disability angle, by the way, is because most people seem to have managed to grasp the idea that you shouldn't casually make a joke out of wheelchairs and muscle spasms and so forth, but for some reason don't seem capable of getting their brains around the simple idea that all the logic as to why that's a gakky thing to do also applies to mental disorders.

And the most hilarious thing about this discussion is that I'm the one who's stereotypically supposed to have stunted empathy.

Frankly though, the only thing I actually find offensive abour your posts is the way you make bald-faced assertions and then pre-emptively state you won't be bothering to evidence your claims because it's somehow beneath you.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Spoiler:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Intercessors only have 5 fixes poses isn't very surprising. That's exactly how the Reivers are.

Yes, and having built some Reivers, I have to say it works just fine. With different arm and head positions the models do not look samey, and if you still feel you need more options, cutting them from the waist (or any joint, really) and slightly adjusting the pose is super easy.

I beg to differ, I have seen multiple units of these things and they might as well be snap fit when there are enough of them. Theres almost nothing distinguishable about them throughout the unit. Whats worse is theres not really anything in their actual kit to make much of a difference.

I have to say these kits aside from the Aggressors and Inceptors are really lame at their price point. I give the former a pass sicne they seem to have more pose-ability and thus character. In regard to the Intercessors and Reivers though, it's like paying FU money for black reach guys upscaled, you have no real way to change their poses outside chopping the crap out of them and filling them back in, which normally I don't mind, but these guys just have that bland filler line troop look after all that work so why bother? Personally I'd go for ebaying the starter minis for cheaper. Not like you need more then the minimum anyways since they suck in game currently.


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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Space Wolf Packs were that way and they came out years ago. It is just much more efficient money wise to do it this way. As long as there are plenty of ways to differentiate the models that are the same across the two sprues, I don't have a problem with it.

But those were completely modular.

So...because the torso is attached to the legs, but the arms and heads are not, the Intercessors are not modular?

I think you may want to reread what he said more carefully, he said completely.

Yeah, I don't see it frankly. People lionise the old style of plastic Marines for their variability, but the simple truth is most of that variability is not pose, it's selection of bits. The reality when you're actually sitting down and building, say, 10 guys with bolters is that there's only a certain range of motion that works; the classic multipart style theoretically has more "angles" available to the torso sure, but the reality is the torso will be straight-on, canted a bit left, or canted a bit right. If you get too extreme with your choice of angles for the torso and arm joints, it just looks daft, and if you built an army out of just Tactical Marines straight from the box with poses that make sense for their loadouts it wouldn't look any more varied than an army of Primaris all built from the box.

The flaw with Primaris isn't that they have a series of "fixed" poses for the torso & legs, it's that they don't yet have enough variation in bits to adequately differentiate those standard poses(which, again, are functionally pretty much the same as the ones you'd "build" from the old kits, at least assuming you weren't depicting Marines from the Broken Spines chapter) without conversions.

Several Sergent weapon options, choice of heavy, choice of special, the guy scanning with an auspex another reloading, a ton of free hands that can be filled with knives and pistols or spare ammo. There are a lot of things you can do with the tactical kit, sure if you just go auto pilot on the bolter guys they can look similar but I have seen many tactical squads where every guy looked unique and distinguishable and part of it comes from parts variety. Being able to pivot the waste one way or the other isn't as small a factor as your making it out to be, I just assembled 60 chaos marines recently and I have guys with the gear that look wildly different because I can cantor left and turn his head the same way and make him appear to be looking over his shoulder away from his gun or leading with his pad like he's bracing for a charge or buy cantering and turning the head the other way give the impression he is firing on the move. If I can cook up 5 different poses for your regular bolter guy before I start using any of the variety of options for heads, legs or other details then I can easily end up with a ton of normal guys that each have their own flavor. New Primaris intercessors have some of that for sure but mostly it's helmet or no helmet. Having the hands attached to the fricken guns is just ridiculously daft to me.

So you agree then - the problem is there aren't yet enough bits to achieve the same level of variation. I still don't see how being able to choose different angles for the waist joint(but in reality almost always using the same small handful of poses, which are adequately provided in the Primaris poses) is a big deal. You can combine different sets of arms with different bodies to achieve the "shoulder charge" pose and others, and the hands have been attached to the guns on GW kits for ages now.

I don't agree. You could probably have just read what I wrote fully and gathered as much though. I mean, if you don't think being able to alter the entire upper plain of the torso is nothing special then we are not even operating on the same hobby level. That's fine, but don't try to tell someone with a sculpting background that limiting possibilities for pose on the entire upper axis of a miniature is minor lol. And that was only one element in my opinion, the hand welded to the fore grip is another major problem.

I understand you don't agree, I can fully comprehend that from your writing yes. I just think you're incorrect and that your reasoning doesn't follow. Nice "hhhobbier than thou" sidebar there though - alas I've done a touch of sculpting myself so it doesn't really work.

How about you explain to me this then: in what way is taking a torso and a set of legs in one of five poses with a ball-socket join between them and a pair of arms with a weapon in "ready" position, then attaching them together to form a model in a "leaning slightly shoulder-down" pose different in practice to choosing a body already posed in that manner with arms in a similar position to achieve the same effect?

It isn't, all you've lost is the illusion of freedom, and as someone with training in sculpture you surely must know it's illusuory because there are only a certain number of ways you could configure the pose of such a model and still have the pose make sense in terms of anatomy. Primaris have "fixed" poses for the bodies, but in practice so did the old style models because you couldn't use more than a few degrees of rotation and arc with any given combination of body & arms without making them look even more like they had a broken spine and dislocated hips.

And while you might dislike the hands thing(I can't say I'm overly fond of it myself), it's hardly a complaint that can be levelled only at Primaris, it's been standard on GW kits for years.

OK - Time to move on from this tangent - the post in question has been addressed, we're wandering far afield here, and RULE #1 and RULE #2 need to be followed, ASAP.

 warboss wrote:

 Galas wrote:

And Primaris Marines have it buil into the fluff that they follow the Horus Heresy style of a squad all having the same weapon. Wheres the difference?

Tau historically didn't have the option overall (with some obvious exceptions). Space Marines traditionally did (except for a few exceptions). See the difference? The two situations are pretty much polar opposites historically and the new units (and likely all units going forward since I suspect there won't be many or maybe any normal marine kits) defy that decades old expectation.

You're right, weapon options for Primaris infantry are based on bringing the Astartes back to ancient thinking, despite what the historical precedent has been, which fits with the narrative of the game currently and shows in the rules. And since Guilliman returned, he's pretty much been the driving force for Primaris design, which is why they follow that doctrine - it's what he knows (since he's been gone for the past 10,000 years). The benefit is twofold - it's fluffy, despite any assurances that it isn't, and it means that any perceived or actual move to replace vanilla marines with Primaris happens slowly over a long period of time in the fluff, models, and rules - if it is to happen at all.

It is honestly a brilliant way to introduce these lovely new models, represent them in rules as they intend massive hulking super soldiers should be, and not immediately invalidate decades of current marine armies or the flavour of those units.

Edit - responded but am removing because of the yellow text.

I still have 6 snap fit Inceptors to make so I'm eager to see sprue pics for the multipart ones, the bolters with cutouts on the intercessors were a bit of a letdown - was hoping there'd be a few spares in there. Assuming inceptor weapons are going to be much the same with no leftover guns to share around, but it would be great to be wrong on that

I'd have to think you'll have spare guns from the Inceptors. I've not compared the two versions but I can't imagine I'd be easy to make quick single big interchangeable bolters/plasma.

Someone posted these Jes Goodwin sketches from the Primaris Edition codex. Earliest one is dated October 2014, which means Primaris Marines have been in the works for at least three years.

Bull0 wrote:
I still have 6 snap fit Inceptors to make so I'm eager to see sprue pics for the multipart ones, the bolters with cutouts on the intercessors were a bit of a letdown - was hoping there'd be a few spares in there. Assuming inceptor weapons are going to be much the same with no leftover guns to share around, but it would be great to be wrong on that

I wouldn't expect any overlap in bolt weapon and plasma weapon design. At least it doesn't look like it to me.

I like those flying guys. From concept to execution I think they're very cool.

I'd say the same about the rest of the Primaris Marines, but sadly they're the wrong scale for 40K.

I'm particularly fond of the enclosed helmet. Just looks dead snazzy!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I like those flying guys. From concept to execution I think they're very cool.

Wish I could say the same. Top left guy? I can't unsee the invisible motorcycle he's riding...

I dislike the enclosed helmet myself. Also that they all seem to be leaning backwards.

There seems to be no way to elegantly pose a jump marine who's armour is that thick, it limits the range of motion too much.

Doesn't help that the jump pack is mounted to their armour's neck rather than back, biasing their centre of gravity further. Or the weird shoes.

I really like those plasma guys with the outer helmets. Very very Starship Troopers.

"Yo dawg I heard you like helmets so we put a helmet in your helmet so you could... um.... I honestly have no idea where I'm going with this joke"

I’m honestly not sure whether I prefer more variation in poses or better-looking models at the end. Personally I think the new primaris are good for battleline guys, but much less good for characters.

The captain is the real problem. I don’t mind too much that every librarian has a sword (though options would be nice) and every chaplain certainly ought to have a crozuis. But captains are the guys I really want to personalise, and the kit doesn’t let me. Worse still, the rules don’t let me.

This leads to the situation where primaris captains can’t have loads of the relics. So they’ve released a new line of models along with rules that don’t work for them. I’ve managed to get to a store birthday so the captain with the power fist is on his way, and I’m seriously considering playing crimson fists as a result, to use their fancy fist. To be fair I’d already painted up some of the starter set guys as CF and was very happy with the result, so it’s not totally out of the blue.

It’s particularly bizarre when the logic they are using, that models can only have what’s in the kit, isn’t applied elsewhere. I’m glad that intercessors can have power swords, but it’s odd that there isn’t one in the kit – when there’s tons of other stuff.

Mandragola wrote:
I’m honestly not sure whether I prefer more variation in poses or better-looking models at the end. Personally I think the new primaris are good for battleline guys, but much less good for characters.

The captain is the real problem. I don’t mind too much that every librarian has a sword (though options would be nice) and every chaplain certainly ought to have a crozuis. But captains are the guys I really want to personalise, and the kit doesn’t let me. Worse still, the rules don’t let me.

This leads to the situation where primaris captains can’t have loads of the relics. So they’ve released a new line of models along with rules that don’t work for them. I’ve managed to get to a store birthday so the captain with the power fist is on his way, and I’m seriously considering playing crimson fists as a result, to use their fancy fist. To be fair I’d already painted up some of the starter set guys as CF and was very happy with the result, so it’s not totally out of the blue.

It’s particularly bizarre when the logic they are using, that models can only have what’s in the kit, isn’t applied elsewhere. I’m glad that intercessors can have power swords, but it’s odd that there isn’t one in the kit – when there’s tons of other stuff.

Yeah the utter inability to customise the characters is the biggest problem I have with the Primaris line. The relic thing in particular is really absurd.

Mandragola wrote:
It’s particularly bizarre when the logic they are using, that models can only have what’s in the kit, isn’t applied elsewhere. I’m glad that intercessors can have power swords, but it’s odd that there isn’t one in the kit – when there’s tons of other stuff.

It is in the Ultramarines primaris upgrade kit tho - so GW provide the option, albeit not in the same kit.

MaxT wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
It’s particularly bizarre when the logic they are using, that models can only have what’s in the kit, isn’t applied elsewhere. I’m glad that intercessors can have power swords, but it’s odd that there isn’t one in the kit – when there’s tons of other stuff.

It is in the Ultramarines primaris upgrade kit tho - so GW provide the option, albeit not in the same kit.

Yes, and by that same logic characters could have a ton of more options, as we can kitbash weapons from other marine kits! There are plenty of marine weapons that come as a separate hand holding the weapon, which you could easily glue on the Primaris captain with no real conversion effort required.

Also, why the feth can't we use that UM power sword bits on the Reiver sergeants, who would really benefit from it? It is absurd that the sergeants of shooty squads get special melee weapon, while the sergeants of the melee squads don't.

 Mymearan wrote:
Someone posted these Jes Goodwin sketches from the Primaris Edition codex. Earliest one is dated October 2014, which means Primaris Marines have been in the works for at least three years.

Thanks for posting Jes has been considering side turrets according to the Repulsor sketch. We heard rumors about it. I would not be surprised if such a variant will be part of a future DA/BA etc Codex release. Also is that Vanguard helmet already available?

MaxT wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
It’s particularly bizarre when the logic they are using, that models can only have what’s in the kit, isn’t applied elsewhere. I’m glad that intercessors can have power swords, but it’s odd that there isn’t one in the kit – when there’s tons of other stuff.

It is in the Ultramarines primaris upgrade kit tho - so GW provide the option, albeit not in the same kit.

Ok, so if I want a power sword I have to buy an upgrade kit, and then I get a sword with an ultramarine symbol on the hilt? That's not what I want at all. I don't play ultramarines - though I do find the idea that my guys might have stolen one of their swords quite entertaining.

What would be better would be an upgrade kit with a bunch of different weapons. Give us a couple of power fists with different poses, assorted pistols, combi-weapons and so on.

And you know what's not in the ultramarines upgrade kit? A fancy iron halo to represent their relic one. If you're going to do chapter-specific kits then at least include the chapter's gear.

You can also get a Power Sword Sergeant via the 30th anniversary model.

Also pure speculation but I'd guess that vanguard helmet was an early version of the Reiver helmet before they got skulls.

 Mymearan wrote:
Someone posted these Jes Goodwin sketches from the Primaris Edition codex. Earliest one is dated October 2014, which means Primaris Marines have been in the works for at least three years.

WE definitely need more of those! And both the Flyer and Vanguard helmets aren't yet released - interesting.

Btw. The Promopaintjobs are labled early 2016 by some of the eavy Metal Guys on FB

These are early concept sketches. Not all of them will have become minis. As AduroT suggests, the vanguard one could well have become reivers.

I've got no problem at all with converting my intercessor sergeants to have power swords. I may well get the anniversary guy for one of my squads - though it's pretty irritating to have to go out and buy a new model for an option that should, and easily could, have been in the box all along.

I do think it's a shame that intercessors can't have more options. I also think it's really weird that RG supposed to have woken up from stasis and completely changed his mind about how squads should be equipped.

Basically the modular weapon idea sounds good, but doesn't work that well in practice. It means the sprues are full of bits of spare magazine, plasma power pack and so on, where otherwise we could have some real options. The reivers, intercessors and hellblasters all give you more guns than bodies too, so that you get options for a gun on a sling, being reloaded and so on. That's cool, but it's taking up space that could be used for special or close combat weapons.

And predictably, the rules writers haven't been able to keep up with all the gun options, which aren't well-balanced at all. Intercessors and hellblasters both feature heavy options which are the most expensive, yet clearly the worst options. So hardly anyone is actually going to use their bitz anyway.

Mandragola wrote:

And predictably, the rules writers haven't been able to keep up with all the gun options, which aren't well-balanced at all. Intercessors and hellblasters both feature heavy options which are the most expensive, yet clearly the worst options. So hardly anyone is actually going to use their bitz anyway.

Indeed. I was exited by the prospects of new weapon options, until I saw the rules and realised they're trash. I'm particularly annoyed by the auto bolt rifles, as they're the best looking configuration, yet have gak for rules.

A tank with only one gun? Ridiculous!

But seriously, I love Goodwin's sketches. I wish my pencils did that too.

So the sketches were done around the time the Chapterhouse lawsuit was wrapping up and GW needed to re-brand to the incoming Protectus IPrimaris replacement marines.

As much as I want to like those plasma dudes, I can't get the.... "The Day The Earth Stood Still" vibe every time I look at those helmets.