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Another consideration, in terms of Azor Ahai twists, is that the show is very rapidly running out of runway. This season is 7 episodes, and next season is 6, and then the show is done. Out of 13 episodes of GoT left forever, we have 10 remaining. It's hard to think they spent so long building the Jon/Dany narrative (many seasons) only to suddenly shift at the last second to some rando.
Of course, Euron only took like 2 episodes to suddenly become a major threat, so who knows.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Ouze wrote: Another consideration, in terms of Azor Ahai twists, is that the show is very rapidly running out of runway. This season is 7 episodes, and next season is 6, and then the show is done. Out of 13 episodes of GoT left forever, we have 10 remaining. It's hard to think they spent so long building the Jon/Dany narrative (many seasons) only to suddenly shift at the last second to some rando.
Of course, Euron only took like 2 episodes to suddenly become a major threat, so who knows.
I believe the 6 episode thing is deceptive though, aren't we getting 1hr 30 min episodes in the final season?
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
The primary issue with all things Azor Ahai is that people have had time to contemplate and explore every logical answer and their implications, so there's not much opportunity for a really satisfying surprise outside of illogical answers that wouldn't be particularly satisfying.
Jon tells Tyrion in the episode that he knows it's a hard question, and that he's looking for answers (from Tyrion, who doesn't really have them either).
Really, one could solve a lot of problems in the world if there WAS an easy answer for how to get human beings to look at the long-term and greater good instead of their short-term selfish concerns. That's arguably one of the key overarching themes of ASOIAF.
Tyron also asks why he wont bend the knee if time is of the essence and nothing matters but uniting against the dead - but somehow that gesture is just too much.....hypocrite much and indeed making his fathers mistakes.
Sacrificing the title (which he doesn;t even want) would have shown Dany that "the childish games" did not matter to Jon - if he had gone -
I dont care if I am King of the North, Warden of the North, Commander of the Nghts Watch or simply Jon Snow, bastard - it matters not because the dead are coming and they care nothing for names or titles. I'll bend the knee because it does not matter - only the war against the dead matters. Will you join me in this war?"
Or something better along those lines.
Of course, Euron only took like 2 episodes to suddenly become a major threat, so who knows.
good writing, good acting - something that the show has shown itself more than capable of producing (well not in Dorne but the exception that proves the rule maybe)
I don't really care if the ending becomes predictable with Dany and Jon fighting the wraiths together - as long as its done well it will be good. They are Fire and Ice -job done - now lets watch the story unfold and them kick ass.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/02 20:59:32
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.
What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.
What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?
Also, this all harps to what Robb told his mother: the Lords of the North made him their King and can just as easily UNMAKE him. Jon can't bend the knee to Danny because most the Lords won't go for it and will just do declare independence. Then the North is in civil war (when it needs to be united) or coldly neutral to itself (when it needs to be united).
Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).
Ouze wrote: Another consideration, in terms of Azor Ahai twists, is that the show is very rapidly running out of runway. This season is 7 episodes, and next season is 6, and then the show is done. Out of 13 episodes of GoT left forever, we have 10 remaining. It's hard to think they spent so long building the Jon/Dany narrative (many seasons) only to suddenly shift at the last second to some rando.
Yeah, they can't shift it to some other character at this point, I agree. But GoT with a few exceptions GoT is not a show that's let anything play out predictably.
That's why I think Azor Ahai will be Jon and/or Daenerys, but it won't play out like a typical saviour story. The Red Priestess's serving the Lord of Light have done some mighty sinister stuff, and are constantly hinting at things even more sinister. Azor Ahai may well stop the army of the dead, but then whoever survives will have to stop Azor Ahai.
That's my theory anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote: Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).
It is a huge mistake in any negotiations to volunteer to the other party how weak your negotiating position actually is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 02:36:23
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Ouze wrote: Another consideration, in terms of Azor Ahai twists, is that the show is very rapidly running out of runway. This season is 7 episodes, and next season is 6, and then the show is done. Out of 13 episodes of GoT left forever, we have 10 remaining. It's hard to think they spent so long building the Jon/Dany narrative (many seasons) only to suddenly shift at the last second to some rando.
Yeah, they can't shift it to some other character at this point, I agree. But GoT with a few exceptions GoT is not a show that's let anything play out predictably.
That's why I think Azor Ahai will be Jon and/or Daenerys, but it won't play out like a typical saviour story. The Red Priestess's serving the Lord of Light have done some mighty sinister stuff, and are constantly hinting at things even more sinister. Azor Ahai may well stop the army of the dead, but then whoever survives will have to stop Azor Ahai.
That's my theory anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote: Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).
It is a huge mistake in any negotiations to volunteer to the other party how weak your negotiating position actually is.
U.S. Presidents pulled the "well I'd totally support you but Congress won't, you gotta give me something to give them" strategy tons of time. I don't think it'd be bad for Jon to say "I absolutely would bend the knee but I can't because the nobles won't listen. You gotta come North and kill White Walkers to earn their trust".
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.
What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?
Even Jon says that is never going to happen because a war is already ongoing. Dany can't march north because the Lannisters / Euron would attack her forces / supply lines - not that there would be enough food and fodder for the Dothraki up north anyway,
At the point that Jon was asked to bend the knee - Dany did not need his forces - she wanted a gesture to her rule. Jon refused and then lectured on how petty squabbles were meaningless. She still does not need them - the Vale cavalry might be handy but are not really needed.
The dead will stumble around lost until its narratively right for them to suddenly appear again and travel time is equally narrative at the moment so its all a bit irrelevant.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Audustum wrote: U.S. Presidents pulled the "well I'd totally support you but Congress won't, you gotta give me something to give them" strategy tons of time. I don't think it'd be bad for Jon to say "I absolutely would bend the knee but I can't because the nobles won't listen. You gotta come North and kill White Walkers to earn their trust".
Yeah, they pull that once they're in office, once the voters have given them power. In terms of the analogy, that's like Jon explaining the real situation as he's rowing out of the harbour with a boat full of dragon glass.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: At the point that Jon was asked to bend the knee - Dany did not need his forces - she wanted a gesture to her rule. Jon refused and then lectured on how petty squabbles were meaningless. She still does not need them - the Vale cavalry might be handy but are not really needed.
Jon can't pledge the Vale cavalry anyway, can he? The Vale is a seperate kingdom, under House Arryn. Little Finger had no obligation to assist, apart from seeing it as the best opportunity for his own ambitions (Starks are less dangerous and easier to manipulate than Boltons).
Unless there's something I'm missing about how the whole Kingdom of the North works, which wouldn't surprise me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 07:32:39
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Been enjoying this season so far. Its not perfect, I dont think the dialogue is as snappy and engaging as the early seaons, theres definitely a bit of wand waving with the Ironlord Captain guy and some characters need more air time like Brann and that big guy that got burned in the fire.
Buts its a major improvement on the last season and has had some epic moments (the big ship battle was really terrific imo).
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
The dialogue lost a lot of punch after they passed GRRM's work. You notice this most with Tyrion, who seemingly spent an entire season cracking lame dwarf jokes with no wit in sight. However, I thought the exchanges between Jon & Daenerys and Jon & Tyrion were decently written.
I don't get what people see in the actor playing Euron. I can't see how there's enough scenery left to film after he's done chewing it all.
The Dany/Jon scenes were a stark(geddit?)reminder of why I despise her.
"Your ancestors bent the knee to mine and your dad was Roberts best friend!"
"Your dad burned my grandfather alive."
"Don't judge daughters by their fathers!"
She's so damn entitled.
Euron was as wonderfully awful as ever. Hammy, but an effective tool to make Danys victory more satisfying after a few setbacks. At least he got a few Sand snakes.
Casterly rock and Highgarden looked like garbage and apparently almost all of the completely untouched reach army all disappeared, and the remainder can't hold a great houses castle. Oh and Euron teleported to the other side of the continent.
Bran is extra creepy.
Littlefinger is extra weird.
Sansa is giving useless advice about leather on breastplates.
But it was all worth it for Euron Greyjoy,the official OURGUY of the remaining Stannermen, and Dany getting mad.
Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an!
Da krimson barun wrote: The Dany/Jon scenes were a stark(geddit?)reminder of why I despise her.
"Your ancestors bent the knee to mine and your dad was Roberts best friend!"
"Your dad burned my grandfather alive."
"Don't judge daughters by their fathers!"
She's so damn entitled.
Euron was as wonderfully awful as ever. Hammy, but an effective tool to make Danys victory more satisfying after a few setbacks. At least he got a few Sand snakes.
Casterly rock and Highgarden looked like garbage and apparently almost all of the completely untouched reach army all disappeared, and the remainder can't hold a great houses castle. Oh and Euron teleported to the other side of the continent.
Bran is extra creepy.
Littlefinger is extra weird.
Sansa is giving useless advice about leather on breastplates.
But it was all worth it for Euron Greyjoy,the official OURGUY of the remaining Stannermen, and Dany getting mad.
Jon is a good exmaple of why i dislike all the Stark males not too bright, focussed on "Da Honah" above all else and holier than thou. I want an army and I want you to do this and I want ---- I probably do that if you make a gesture of beniding the knee - No no the war is not that important but still I want.... Ok your annoying and Tyrion thinks it will help so here is everything you wanted and help to get it - Hmm Well thanks, I am off then.
Sansa was at least trying to make plans and sort out stuff and her advice was correct.
Bran needs a axe in the head - so. very . annoying.
Dany also said - and the 7 Kingdoms were are at peace and prosperous under her ancestors (she left out the stuff about Targayrian civil wars I note) Of course she is entitled - she is a Queen! She also should have learned herself from her ancestors - they came over , burned all resistance and set up home and soon everyone was happy to play nice with the Dragon folk.
Agreed re Tyrell army - wonderfully useless even defending a fortress against infantry and cavalry without siege engines.
Euorn is great fun. theTheon "what a T$%t" line was hilarious and the taunting of Jamie is also great.
The dialogue this week was spot on - and get interchanges between the various parties
Still its going to be soo much better than the books, thats pretty much certain.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Sansa is giving useless advice about leather on breastplates.
.
Useless? Not having something between bare metal and you in winter is not a good idea.
That said, the fact that the armorers couldn't work that out themselves is hilarious.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Da krimson barun wrote: The Dany/Jon scenes were a stark(geddit?)reminder of why I despise her.
"Your ancestors bent the knee to mine and your dad was Roberts best friend!"
"Your dad burned my grandfather alive."
"Don't judge daughters by their fathers!"
She's so damn entitled.
Well yeah she's entitled. Being heir to a kingdom is pretty much the definition of entitled.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/04 04:15:05
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Useless? Not having something between bare metal and you in winter is not a good idea.
That said, the fact that the armorers couldn't work that out themselves is hilarious.
Mabye the smiths were imported from the Vale (via Littlefinger). Who knows how many non-Bolton craftsmen were alive (I didn't really pay attention, do they look like northerners?).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Useless? Not having something between bare metal and you in winter is not a good idea.
That said, the fact that the armorers couldn't work that out themselves is hilarious.
Mabye the smiths were imported from the Vale (via Littlefinger). Who knows how many non-Bolton craftsmen were alive (I didn't really pay attention, do they look like northerners?).
IIRC the breast plates they were making resembled the armour of the Vale.
They should still know better. That's like common sense; a blacksmith should know metal gets cold. You mean to tell me that their master, at some point, never said to them "metal gets really cold, so unless you want people to have frozen nibbles you should really cover the breastplate with leather in winter"
I know the seasons are super screwed up in the word of aSoIaF, but you'd think it would be knowledge passed down because of how important it is.
It really feels like an attempt to make Sansa look intelligent by making everyone else dumb in comparison.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/05 19:54:21
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Ouze wrote: So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.
What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?
Send them home - they will likely be happy to go back to the normal lives - some might stay - most won't.
You dont want a massive horde of bored warriors (in fact it should have been an issue already)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/06 17:11:55
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Ouze wrote: So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.
What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?
Send them home - they will likely be happy to go back to the normal lives - some might stay - most won't.
You dont want a massive horde of bored warriors (in fact it should have been an issue already)
Theres still tonights episode, im guessing team Cercei scores another victory or two before thibgs straighten out
I had a sad thought; if Jorah finds Jon and Co and rejoins, he might need to face the Wight version of his father, as Jon will Wight Yggrette, and Bran Wight Hodor
Ouze wrote: So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.
What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?
Send them home - they will likely be happy to go back to the normal lives - some might stay - most won't.
You dont want a massive horde of bored warriors (in fact it should have been an issue already)
Their whole way of life seems massively incompatible with how Daenerys wants to run Westeros. This seems like a huge issue in waiting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: I had a sad thought; if Jorah finds Jon and Co and rejoins, he might need to face the Wight version of his father, as Jon will Wight Yggrette, and Bran Wight Hodor
That's dark, even for GoT.
Ygritte was burned though to avoid exactly that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/06 20:43:34
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: I had a sad thought; if Jorah finds Jon and Co and rejoins, he might need to face the Wight version of his father, as Jon will Wight Yggrette, and Bran Wight Hodor
That'd be unlikely I think...Because Jeor Mormont's corpse was disposed of, and his skull was turned into a drinking cup.
Ygritte's body was burned, as were all of the dead from the Battle of the Wall.
Hodor however is DEFINITELY a wight now, given that he was directly killed by and in the presence of the White Walkers and their undead thralls. I think we might well see him again sadly.
Ouze wrote: So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.
What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?
Send them home - they will likely be happy to go back to the normal lives - some might stay - most won't.
You dont want a massive horde of bored warriors (in fact it should have been an issue already)
Their whole way of life seems massively incompatible with how Daenerys wants to run Westeros. This seems like a huge issue in waiting.
I doubt it'll get to that point. I'm sure Daenerys, and in particular her Westerosi advisors Jorah and Tyrion are well aware of how incompatible the Dothraki are with Westeros. I expect them to treat the Dothraki as cannon fodder of sorts, putting them in the front line as berzerker shock troops. Their numbers will be severely depleted very quickly.
By the wars end, and especially by the end of the Long Night, the Dothraki numbers will be far more manageable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/06 22:32:54
Honestly, I was expecting it to all go horribly wrong for Daenerys, but she may well just have evened the odds with Cersei completely depending on how much of the Lannister army was at the battle. At the very least King's Landing is totally fethed for food when winter hits them.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Honestly, I was expecting it to all go horribly wrong for Daenerys, but she may well just have evened the odds with Cersei completely depending on how much of the Lannister army was at the battle. At the very least King's Landing is totally fethed for food when winter hits them.
I'm kind of sad the gold made it into the city. I really wanted to see the banker's change of heart when he didn't get paid.
not too bright, focussed on "Da Honah" above all else and holier than thou. I want an army and I want you to do this and I want ---- I probably do that if you make a gesture of beniding the knee - No no the war is not that important but still I want.... Ok your annoying and Tyrion thinks it will help so here is everything you wanted and help to get it - Hmm Well thanks, I am off then.
~4100
~1660
My CF blog 
