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rmeister0 wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:
I'd say based on the fact Age of Sigmar was basically a textbook example of a Lean Startup that GW has learned to apply some top business techniques that you usually only see in the cutthroat world of the tech industry. Picking out just the pricing strategy seems to be a slight strawman in fact, because if ICV2 or GW's own recent financial reports are to be believed their pricing strategy isn't slowing them down to much.

I don't agree it is a strawman since the price is the single most consistent complaint leveled against the company in its entire history; and if you looked at their financial statements over the last decade they've been making more and more margin on fewer and fewer unit sales. That is not a trend that can continue indefinitely., because eventually it will mean selling one hand crafted space marine for 20 million pounds to one guy once a year.

Yes, but at the same time, in my 30+ years of living, my grand-parents have griped over the cost of bread, gas, cars, car insurance, phone lines, cell phones, computers, internet, Y2K, and I could go on and on and on. . . Point here is, people gripe about money. Doesn't matter whether it is a "necessary" expense or a hobby which carries absolutely no necessity to it.

After I saw the prices in plastic historicals (Like Perrys War of the Roses Knights. 40 28mm very nice knights for like 25€ :O ) I measure everything in historical minis.


A Primaris HQ that cost 30€? Thats 60 Perry foot Knights. A box of 10 Tacticals for 35€? Every tactical marine is 7 Perry foot Knights.

I cry everytime I buy a GW product... but after receiving the box they are so pretty...
But at the end of the day, I pay what I think is reasonable for models that I like. I play AoS, 40k, but Kings of War too and Infinity. I buy 80% of my models on ebay. But I have actually buy some sculpts for Mierce (Normally at a discount, like when they sell metal surplus at 50%), Dreamforge games, Mantic, etc...
At the same time I paid 24€ postage included for Krell, direct from GW. Why? Because Krell, Lord of Undeath, is my all time favourite model. I had the opportunity to had for the same price or even cheaper other HQ undead king from many other manufacturers. But I just didn't liked them as much.
As I play in a club we don't have "GW only policy", so everyone has minimun 20-30% of non GW miniatures in their Warhammer armies.

GW has done some things good this past two years. They have done some things bad for us the customers. As they are a business, in two years in the future we will se if those bad decisones for the customers were bad too for Games Workshop, or not.
This comes down to "Did you feel that you are receiving a good value for the money you invest?" If the answer is yes, just do it. If the answer is no... this is a hobby. Nobody is forcing you.
Obviously theres much legitimate critizism do to, for GW, for Mantic, even Corvus Belly that normally I defend just for the fact that I'm a Galician too. But at the end of the day, they are a business, not your friend that you care for him to take good decisions, and theres a point where one has to think "Why I'm I still interested in this business that don't offer me value for my money?"

And part of that good value is whether you ever get to play a game with your toys (assuming you want more than just to buy product and possible build, paint and display).

Like it or not, GW stuff tends to have an in-built audience. If you've ever had to evangelize for a game (buy and build at least two forces), you know what a blessing it is to not have to do that.

That said, $35 for those latest character primaris guys is banana sauce.

 Stormonu wrote:
One of GW's worst examples of price-jacking was the shift of the Eldar Dire Avengers from a box of 10 to 5, with anincrease in price to boot (I remember it fairly well as I bought the 10, was going to go back the next week to buy another box and it had changed to the 5-man box).

That was in 2013. Which I think was the same year as the WHFB witch elves also released as a 5 miniature set in a game about big blocks of troops. GW decided to put their "elite" stuff in half sized boxes and dire avengers got the switch. At least with the sternguard/vanguard and the scions and all the necron stuff you got a ton of bits and options. Dire Avengers just got less models with no options to make a second aspect warrior type and no real options for the models themselves. It's just brutal.

And the Dire Avengers weren't really materially different from the guardians. At least when comparing the Vanguard with a Tactical Squad the sheer amount of parts and specialty equipment set them apart. Or Immortals being a different size than Necron Warriors. Dire Avengers have what? A helmet crest, some extra crap on their belts and maybe a cloth tabard?

GW prices have been hilariously bad (and in some ways still are). Though I don't think they've done this sort of price hiking lately. All of the Age of Sigmar reboxing has been at the exact same price as before but with round bases instead of square bases and in the new box with the AoS logo instead of the Warhammer fantasy logo. No price hikes or half models on any of that.

Overall, I wouldn't say the trend has reversed

The trend I'm talking about is the one where they intentionally seek to sell less models to fewer people at a higher price. I think they are actually starting to go for volume again. Wanting their products in more people's hands.

 Galas wrote:
After I saw the prices in plastic historicals (Like Perrys War of the Roses Knights. 40 28mm very nice knights for like 25€ :O ) I measure everything in historical minis.

While it's a good indication of what's possible for companies to get away with without going out of business, it's worth keeping in mind that historical miniatures have no IP protection and there is a real, actual competition situation at work there.

GW (or other companies with unique IP) doesn't have that kind of competition and can and do set their prices more liberally. I find it more useful to compare them to other IP protected manufacturers myself.

I do historicals as well and I also think of them as a separate category, but if anyone is price conscious they are simply a superior option. You get the same plastic as GW and a much wider range of rules sets to choose from. The main difference though is that you'll have to approach it like a board game where you supply everything that's needed. Even the popular games like Bolt Action or Flames of War often don't have the critical mass needed to rely on others to supply the rest of the pieces needed to play the game.

For me, this has also been a feature as I find I enjoy gaming with only about 25% of people who play games like 40k, AoS Infinity, Warmachine, etc.,. out there. I get along with everyone, but a solid majority of the time I finish a game thinking "wow, this person has a totally different approach to this hobby than I do."

Whereas when I build two historical armies and make all the terrain and design a scenario and host a dinner party followed by gaming, I've invited only those who I actually know I want to spend time with.

It's a really rewarding approach, but it's far less casual in terms of time invested (painting two armies for a start) and it did take me a few years to build up my contacts list to the point where I can reliably play any game I want by just sending out an email. It has also meant that things need to be more strongly connected with the general narrative as you can't rely on gamey mechanics that require system mastery to gain advantage. You need rules where basic expectations play out in a way that makes sense to anyone with even a passing familiarity with the period and also those without any knowledge. "Would you charge on a horse into a wall of spears?" needs to be the basis of decision making rather than "I'll get a -2 modifier from that, but then I'll use this event card, etc., etc.,"

If anyone is thinking of giving the approach a go, I'd recommend One-Hour Wargames by Neil Thomas. The scenario section alone can totally change how you think about gaming, but largely only if you actually play them. What's intelligent there is not immediately obvious to everyone just on reading it.

Combine that with some of the great plastic kits for the period that interests you.

Besides the game, the other factor GW used to inflate the perceived value of their minis was the strength of their background. Without getting into an argument over how original it is or was, there was a time when GW's worlds were as widely discussed as Star Wars, when GW fiction made it to the NYT bestseller list and the BL stock at bookstores out shelved SW, ST and DnD combined. That is mostly gone now. For many GW customers, like myself, the decline in background quality, destruction of the Old World and 5th edition Wardening have all reduced the value of the brand, especially the miniatures. I probably would have bought Trollslayers at Fyreslayer prices back when Gotrek and Felix were written by William King; there's no reason for me to pay even half that today.

Is it possible to know if the appearance, growth and then decline of Black Library books in book stores has anything to do with writing quality rather than being a natural progression of a fad? Or of a major book distributor or book marketer being done with their campaign? Or some change in how Black Library deals with book distribution?

How they're now direct only for a months before book stores can get them? Take Dark Imperium. It's available from GW right now, but it won't be in book stores until January, 2018. Maybe policies like that lead to book stores dropping Black Library rather than a dip in writing quality? GW has also seems to be really concentrating on direct sales of their books, limited editions and direct sales of eBooks. If I was a book store operator, I would be hesitant to place large orders of any book that the publisher has already been selling to all the dedicated fans for 6 months before I can get it on the shelves.

I thought the writing quality was always relatively unimpressive. They are schlock genre novels after all. Some better than others.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Is it possible to know if the appearance, growth and then decline of Black Library books in book stores has anything to do with writing quality rather than being a natural progression of a fad? Or of a major book distributor or book marketer being done with their campaign? Or some change in how Black Library deals with book distribution?

How they're now direct only for a months before book stores can get them? Take Dark Imperium. It's available from GW right now, but it won't be in book stores until January, 2018. Maybe policies like that lead to book stores dropping Black Library rather than a dip in writing quality? GW has also seems to be really concentrating on direct sales of their books, limited editions and direct sales of eBooks. If I was a book store operator, I would be hesitant to place large orders of any book that the publisher has already been selling to all the dedicated fans for 6 months before I can get it on the shelves.

I thought the writing quality was always relatively unimpressive. They are schlock genre novels after all. Some better than others.

Actually, the writing quality was very good for tie in fiction. Back in 2005-2010, BL novels had a reputation for quality that ST, SW, and non-Drizzt DnD/FR books simply could not match. Eisenhorn, Gaunt's Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain, Gotrek and Felix all had mainstream (well, mainstream for SF readers) appeal. There were lesser writers, but back then BL had enough quality control to keep the Gotos from harming the brand. The background had enough of a unique flavor to be a selling point even when the writers weren't that hot (sorry, Gav Thorpe and Ben Counter). At the time, though, SW had just shot the bed with NJO and then Swarm War and Karen Traviss' self-love fantasies, while ST never really had quality until the post-Nemesis relaunch. DnD never really appealed outside of their niche. SoBL had little competition in that regard.

When the Horus Heresy novels first came out, they were a big deal. There was real anticipation. By the release of A Thousand Sons (and NYT bestseller status), many 40k terms had entered the popular online consciousness and you would see Star Trek or Star Wars nerds debating what would happen next. This was quashed when BL switched to publishing hardcovers first...almost overnight active threads filled up with "I'll read it in paperback" and died. Also, GW began usurping the BL editors, and it became very noticeable when the aim of the editors wasn't to ensure a fun sandbox to explore but rather to sell specific toys. BL openly stated that they would not explore new aspects of the universe, but rather every new writer had to write one guard-centric novel before moving on to Space Marine Battles or some crap. They also started releasing crucial story chapters as limited edition books, which turned off a lot of the 'casual' fans BL had won over in the previous half decade.

I've got to go, but I'll be happy to go on again later. TL;DR: BL used to be a successful proselytizing arm that was snuffed into a less successful cash cow machine.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
When the Horus Heresy novels first came out, they were a big deal. There was real anticipation. By the release of A Thousand Sons (and NYT bestseller status), many 40k terms had entered the popular online consciousness and you would see Star Trek or Star Wars nerds debating what would happen next. This was quashed when BL switched to publishing hardcovers first...almost overnight active threads filled up with "I'll read it in paperback" and died.

That's probably the largest factor, IMHO. This period of exclusive sales means everyone who is psyked about the new release has to wait 6+ months and the hype of the new release dies away and they forget about it and move on to other stuff.

Also, GW began usurping the BL editors, and it became very noticeable when the aim of the editors wasn't to ensure a fun sandbox to explore but rather to sell specific toys.

I recently read the Genestealer Cult (Peter Fehervari) and Tempestus (Braden Campbell) ones and now that you point it out, I think I thought the same thing. And they were really strangely written with contrived endings. I borrowed the Genestealer Cult book and while I'm out a few dollars for the Tempestus ebook, I'm totally unimpressed by them. On the other hand, I did enjoy Dark Imperium which is definitely a "sell primaris" novel, so I think it might come down to inconsistent editing and individual writer talent.

BL openly stated that they would not explore new aspects of the universe, but rather every new writer had to write one guard-centric novel before moving on to Space Marine Battles or some crap. They also started releasing crucial story chapters as limited edition books, which turned off a lot of the 'casual' fans BL had won over in the previous half decade.

What a mess. I read those interviews that popped up with ex-GW people about the changes to BL and didn't quite understand the implications of everything being merged into the common marketing department of "GW Publications."

I've got to go, but I'll be happy to go on again later. TL;DR: BL used to be a successful proselytizing arm that was snuffed into a less successful cash cow machine.

I guess as someone who's only recently got back into reading 40k novels, it just looks like they have this huge library of content. I didn't experience the ups and downs of following the heresy novels and having things suddenly go direct only in limited edition or whatever.

I also did a quick look on various ebook market places (Google Play, Amazon Kindle Store, Kobo, Nook, etc.,) and there's nothing there. If you want an ebook, it's direct only.

Seems like a perfect storm of stupid. Dumb editing policies, trying to turn novels into marketing vectors for models, taking the momentum out of any hype or marketing by withholding books for half a year from major sellers, not appearing in ANY ebook platforms. Pissing off your existing fans and driving away the casual novel readers.

With Dark Imperium still having a January 2018 release for book stores, I guess this is a definite case where "have they learned their lesson?" is answered with a big no.

That said, perhaps this direct sales at a high price accomplishes the goals for the department. If they make pennies per copy sold through book stores but a few dollars per ebook sold thorugh their website, the fewer number of copies they need to sell to hit their revenue goals is quite significant. Maybe this is more of GW's approach from 2006-2015 where they intentionally wanted to sell less product to fewer people at a higher price.

It arguably is part of GW's policy to encourage direct sales with as few middle men between the customers revenue and GW as possible. Just as it is with most Wargames companies.

GW is definitely improved, there's no question about that.

Whether you believe in the value proposition, that's a separate question. Is the comparable miniature for Malifaux / Warmachine / Hordes significantly cheaper? If not, then the model is fairly priced relative to market.

Either you can afford the luxury of miniatures gaming, or you need to quit and find something cheaper.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Either you can afford the luxury of miniatures gaming, or you need to quit and find something cheaper.

With plastic historicals and a low model count rules set (often free) and easy terrain making techniques using stuff from the dollar store, it's a super cheap hobby for those who want it that cheap.

There's no reason to give up the hobby for lack of money, just certain companies and approaches. For some, maybe that means GW's products need to be passed over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Llamahead wrote:
It arguably is part of GW's policy to encourage direct sales with as few middle men between the customers revenue and GW as possible.

And to be far, this has been a revolutionary effect of the internet in general. It can put in touch content creators with those who might want to buy their wares across the entire planet.

I've bought 2 GW ebooks. Will I buy another? Maybe. Would I impulse buy them if I saw them in the sci-fi section of my eBook marketplace of choice? Probably. Are the terms or costs of using such a market place incompatible with GW's own internal policies and goals? Maybe? What level of sales would be needed for GW to make more money using the market places instead of their own site? That's impossible to know from the outside.

For me, GW has changed enough to get my money again. The rules produce the kind of play that I like now. Lower model counts are supported. They're communicating both ways with the fan base (people working there say when the social media guys say "I'll pass that along to the person in charge of that" they actually do). They've been more reasonable with their litigation and legal requests (the only person we know of that got asked to take something down admitted they were in the wrong).

Price didn't quite make that list. I'm okay with 5 tempestus scions in a box. And I also am okay with buying legs and torso from 3rd party accessory makers to make use of the extra tempestus bits. I see the start collecting and multiple starter sets as a real difference in terms of the cost of getting games in as well.

And no one on this thread has noticed that GW actually lowered the price on one of their miniatures, and then bundled it with others into a Start Collecting box...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Start-Collecting-Fyreslayers

They cut the price of the Magmadroth, and it is now available WITH a infantry kit in the box under their Start Collecting banner. This, along with the other new Start Collecting boxes is a positive sign of GW recognizing their customers requests for not only less expensive model/bundles, but they gave three Start Collecting boxes, one of which was heavily requested by fans of that army line.

Yes, GW is expensive, but it is getting better.

I was definitely encouraged to see more rather than less start collecting bundles.

The main lesson I want GW to learn in regards to things like start collecting bundles as well as support for lower model count games is that things like that work.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Either you can afford the luxury of miniatures gaming, or you need to quit and find something cheaper.

With plastic historicals and a low model count rules set (often free) and easy terrain making techniques using stuff from the dollar store, it's a super cheap hobby for those who want it that cheap.

There's no reason to give up the hobby for lack of money, just certain companies and approaches. For some, maybe that means GW's products need to be passed over.

Plastic historicals are NOT cheap, particularly if you look at something like Flames of War or Bolt Action. Price-wise, they're comparable to GW. Actual plastic scale models (e.g. Tamiya, Dragon) are not cheap, either.

Low model count games like Infinity or Malifaux or Kingdom Death aren't that cheap, either. Particularly Kingdom Death.

I still say that wargaming is a luxury hobby, moreso if you want any of the "big" product lines.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Plastic historicals are NOT cheap, particularly if you look at something like Flames of War or Bolt Action. Price-wise, they're comparable to GW. Actual plastic scale models (e.g. Tamiya, Dragon) are not cheap, either.

Ok. So I bought a box of 25 US infantry and a tank for Bolt Action. Both were around £20 each.

The infantry box made; a HQ officer, a Sniper unit of 2, a Bazooka unit of 2, and 2 sets of 10 troop units along with the tank.

Although I play and buy GW stuff. That amount of money would not get me 5 units and a tank. Especially where one single hq sprue is around the £20 mark.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Plastic historicals are NOT cheap, particularly if you look at something like Flames of War or Bolt Action. Price-wise, they're comparable to GW. Actual plastic scale models (e.g. Tamiya, Dragon) are not cheap, either.

Low model count games like Infinity or Malifaux or Kingdom Death aren't that cheap, either. Particularly Kingdom Death.

I still say that wargaming is a luxury hobby, moreso if you want any of the "big" product lines.

I guess we have different ideas about cheap. When I say wargaming can be done cheaply, I mean I know two guys married with kids who work minimum wage jobs and also send money back to their families in the Philippines who manage it.

I also think looking at these product lines meant to sell you a complete package of rules and miniatures is a mistake if you are looking for affordable options.



GW is expensive in comparison to other options, but this notion that it's some luxury hobby that people need to quit... Even if you can't afford GW, Privateer, Corvus Belli, Warlord, Perry, Gripping Beast, Wyrd, or any of the other known companies, you can still get some figures to paint on the cheap and combine it with some free rules and cheap terrain making ideas and get playing. I've even seen people paint and play with cheap green plastic army men (not my cup of tea, but they'll work).



I'd go so far as to say that anyone (not currently in real danger) can afford it. People on social assistance often still manage to pay their cable bills for TV, so why not cancel that and get some wargaming going instead? Working on projects is probably better than watching TV anyway.

This idea that wargaming is some expensive luxury hobby is just the result of companies like GW pushing up the average cost and people getting totally trapped in complete package thinking (there are even people out there who refuse to play on non-GW terrain). I happen to think many of GW's products are worth it, but we shouldn't pretend they're the only option or that every other option is equally expensive.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Plastic historicals are NOT cheap, particularly if you look at something like Flames of War or Bolt Action. Price-wise, they're comparable to GW. Actual plastic scale models (e.g. Tamiya, Dragon) are not cheap, either.

Ok. So I bought a box of 25 US infantry and a tank for Bolt Action. Both were around £20 each.

The infantry box made; a HQ officer, a Sniper unit of 2, a Bazooka unit of 2, and 2 sets of 10 troop units along with the tank.

Although I play and buy GW stuff. That amount of money would not get me 5 units and a tank. Especially where one single hq sprue is around the £20 mark.

Yeah, it's just false that "Bolt Action. Price-wise, they're comparable to GW."

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
GW is definitely improved, there's no question about that.

Whether you believe in the value proposition, that's a separate question. Is the comparable miniature for Malifaux / Warmachine / Hordes significantly cheaper? If not, then the model is fairly priced relative to market.

Either you can afford the luxury of miniatures gaming, or you need to quit and find something cheaper.

I can afford to play miniatures games and I do. I play Infinity and Malifaux, and I've kickstarted The Other Side in a big way. I play miniature heavy boardgames like Zombicide and Imperial Assault. I play X-Wing and Dropzone Commander.

I can't afford to play Games Workshops games, and so I don't.

While I don't have qualms with paying a lot for a miniature (I paid over $100au for a limited edition 30mm Infantry miniature for Malifaux, but that was a one off and again, very limited), I take issue with the cost GW put out. For a single 40k character, I can buy a whole starter for Malifaux or Infinity. That starter is a good half to two thirds of what I need to play at the maximum point level of the game. Expanding on it is basically that cost again, which goes over the maximum point level of either game. So basically for the cost of two characters, or a character and a squad from Games Workshop, I've got what I need to play a full game of either, with options to swap things in and out.

Yes, those examples are skirmish games. But GW made the choice to require a lot of miniatures, and also made the choice to price them as high as they do. When I see a box of 3 cavalry for AoS cost as much as two, almost three starter boxes for either game, I've just got to shake my head and walk away.

Honestly, their recent aesthetic direction also isn't helping with me. It's just awful.

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
Yes, GW is expensive, but it is getting better.

It really isn't. Look at the prices of the Primaris crap that's coming out this week and the two characters from the week before. They're not 'getting better'.

The primaris prices are certainly not better. They are more of the same. I thought for sure they'd be higher than they were. Like $60 USD for the Reivers rather than $50. They're larger miniatures than normal tactical marines. I was not expecting them to be the same price as the MKIII and IV heresy kits. I thought they'd be more.

The dreadnought, on the other hand, is exactly what I expected. Less than a land raider, more than a predator. Definitely too expensive for me to even consider.

I do disagree with the central notion of the original post of this thread though, that price will be the determinant of whether or not GW has "learned their lesson." That primaris characters are the price there are isn't really some indicator that nothing has changed at GW. Obviously things have changed.

From the last financial report:

"The key priority in the period reported has been to give our store managers the appropriate product and sales support to help them recruit new customers, retain our existing customers and re-recruit lapsed customers."

I can't think of a single previous financial report that even mentioned the idea that a customer could be retained. Or that lapsed customers could be gotten back. GW had a churn-and-burn strategy where the costs were front loaded as much as possible so they could get as much money as they could out of a new customer before they quit.

Has GW learned the lesson that keeping customers can be cheaper than recruiting new ones? That lapsed customers are already qualified leads who they know are the kind of people who spend money on miniatures? That the revenue from a life long customer is better than a one time churning of a new recruit?

I believe they have. Even if a new dreadnought is more than a predator.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Plastic historicals are NOT cheap, particularly if you look at something like Flames of War or Bolt Action. Price-wise, they're comparable to GW. Actual plastic scale models (e.g. Tamiya, Dragon) are not cheap, either.

Low model count games like Infinity or Malifaux or Kingdom Death aren't that cheap, either. Particularly Kingdom Death.

I still say that wargaming is a luxury hobby, moreso if you want any of the "big" product lines.

Can you show any Bolt Action pack that's near the same price as an equivalent GW pack?

Or a scale model kit that costs the same as a Land Raider?

Mini's for Malifaux/Kingdom death are certainly about as expensive as GW, but my Malifaux horde faction (Gremlins) fields 8-10 minis most of the time, at standard tournament sizes (50ss).

Flames Of War isn't cheap for what it is, but it's much cheaper than GW. It's not a fair comparison though, because it's 15mm Vs 32mm. I can buy a pack of 5 tanks from Battlefront for the cost of 1 from GW, but they are much smaller.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Plastic historicals are NOT cheap, particularly if you look at something like Flames of War or Bolt Action. Price-wise, they're comparable to GW. Actual plastic scale models (e.g. Tamiya, Dragon) are not cheap, either.

Flames of War is one of the more expensive games. But Bolt Action is quite a bit cheaper, you might be able to find one or two GW kits that match Bolt Action for price per model, but mostly Bolt Action will be quite a large number more models per dollar and you don't need a huge army to play a game of Bolt Action, at least the games I've seen played typically revolve around smaller forces. When you DO need heaps of models they are often much cheaper price per model (eg. Perry models).

Scale plastic models vary massively, cheap ones are cheap, expensive ones are expensive. But usually there's a good reason the expensive ones are expensive. Expensive ones often come with tons of sprues, detailed parts, etched metal details, metal gun barrels, movable parts, etc. You can compare something like an Imperial Knight to a Tamiya 1/32 Spitfire (similar price) but the Tamiya kit will come with a detailed colour reference booklet, 10's of sprues, 100's of components, metal etch, thin cast panels, movable parts (including things like plastic bushings, metal pins and metal screws required to make it movable) and so on and so forth.

Alternatively you can buy something like a Revell 1/32 Spitfire for a quarter of the price of an Imperial Knight and still get a kit that'll take you a few months worth of weekends to build and paint. Having built one I can say it's a pretty damned good kit still.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
Yes, GW is expensive, but it is getting better.

It really isn't. Look at the prices of the Primaris crap that's coming out this week and the two characters from the week before. They're not 'getting better'.

And look at the price of other Space Marine plastic HQ character blisters, and they are right on course for those, with a slight increase in price considering the size increase that is coming with Primaris over standard Marines.

Plus there is pricing because of their perception that most players will not buy more than one or two of each model. A line unit of Troops or other infantry that can be repeated? A transport for your guys? Those will be repeat purchases and players are more likely to get multiples of those kits, while there will likely be only so many HQ models in an army or collection. At least, this is my observation based on my years in the hobby and studying the industry.

The point of my previous post is that GW recognizes that customers want less expensive bundles for their models, and they are now listening to their customers and responding in positive ways. If that isn't "better" than the GW of a few years ago, then I don't know what is anymore.

 frozenwastes wrote:
The dreadnought, on the other hand, is exactly what I expected. Less than a land raider, more than a predator. Definitely too expensive for me to even consider.

It's also a lot bigger than other Dreadnoughts, at least as big as (if not larger than) a Leviathan Siege Dreadnought from Forge World. If a regular Dreadnought is X volume of plastic and sold for about X dollars, then a Redemptor Dreadnought at Y volume of plastic will sell for about Y dollars. Like was mentioned before, it's GW trying to keep their "perceived value" across their kits consistent.

I do really like the new Dreadnought. I'm losing my interest in the new Primaris Marines, but that Dread is cool to me.

 frozenwastes wrote:
From the last financial report:

"The key priority in the period reported has been to give our store managers the appropriate product and sales support to help them recruit new customers, retain our existing customers and re-recruit lapsed customers."

I can't think of a single previous financial report that even mentioned the idea that a customer could be retained. Or that lapsed customers could be gotten back. GW had a churn-and-burn strategy where the costs were front loaded as much as possible so they could get as much money as they could out of a new customer before they quit.

Has GW learned the lesson that keeping customers can be cheaper than recruiting new ones? That lapsed customers are already qualified leads who they know are the kind of people who spend money on miniatures? That the revenue from a life long customer is better than a one time churning of a new recruit?

I believe they have.

Because they are listening to their customers and realized that social media is not just a means for people to complain about stuff (I mean, that happens, but there is more to it than that). GW has measurably improved in the past few years. We can just hope that GW keeps this trend up and doesn't mess up this trend.

Herzlos wrote:

Or a scale model kit that costs the same as a Land Raider?

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/plastic-model-series-20/1-12-scale-motorcycle-series-4000/yamaha-yzr-m1-09-14128

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/plastic-model-series-20/1-20-scale-grand-prix-6000/lotus-type-79-1979-martini--20061

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/plastic-model-series-20/1-350-scale-ship-24000/japanese-destroyer-kagero-78032


There's three. . . . and it didn't even take me long.

Yeah, although TBH, there's Gundam kits far more advanced that do not cost as much.

Car models are a super niche, and they price accordingly, and those are direct from manufacturer prices.

GW's high prices really aren't up for debate, and the number of models needed for what's generally considered a full game is also high.

GW can charge whatever they can get away with. They don't owe you anything (unless you own part of GW?). Making as much money as they can makes them a good company, not a bad one.
The fact that it is inconvenient for you to pay more for a game that a company has a monopoly on is not GW's problem.

While I don't like to exclude people, it is up to you to finance your own hobby. You can get the models for cheaper if you try and there are cheaper wargames.
To have a playable Infinity army cost me half of what a Warhammer army cost me. Historical miniatures cost even less, especially if you go for smaller scales (which I prefer for historical wargaming, I care more about armies than characters in ancients). My 6mm Alexandrian army cost as much as one daemon prince.

 frozenwastes wrote:

GW is expensive in comparison to other options, but this notion that it's some luxury hobby that people need to quit... Even if you can't afford GW, Privateer, Corvus Belli, Warlord, Perry, Gripping Beast, Wyrd, or any of the other known companies, you can still get some figures to paint on the cheap and combine it with some free rules and cheap terrain making ideas and get playing. I've even seen people paint and play with cheap green plastic army men (not my cup of tea, but they'll work).

I am really getting sick and tired of this "luxury hobby, so shut up" mentality that's on display here. While it is a luxury, that does not mean that GW isn't squeezing the stone beyond reason.

Heck, pick up half a dozen Bones models from Reaper, buy a copy of Song of Blades and Heroes, and you're in business for less than $50. You can get into FrostGrave for less than the cost of the new 40k starter set.

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:

And look at the price of other Space Marine plastic HQ character blisters, and they are right on course for those, with a slight increase in price considering the size increase that is coming with Primaris over standard Marines.

Your defending GW prices by comparing them to GW prices. How is one over priced model OK, because the other model is over priced.

rmeister0 wrote:
Heck, pick up half a dozen Bones models from Reaper, buy a copy of Song of Blades and Heroes, and you're in business for less than $50.

Yeah, but then I'd be playing with models that are only marginally better than what one finds at the dollar store. No thanks.