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@HMBC

Essentially;

All Death Guard are Plague Marines but not all Plague Marines are Death Guard?

All Rubric Marines are Thousand Sons and all Thousand Sons are Rubric Marines?

anyway let's adopt a wait and see approuch, for all we know deathguard terminators are gonna be in the "so awesome there'd be no reason to take normal termies" catagory. although personally I'm of the opinion whatb we'll likely see are a combi bolter and plague sword, that can be swapped for a plague reaper, with some heavy weapons options mixed in.

It'd be fine to have the new terminators not utilize regular weapons IF they were a separate unit AND regular terminators could be made Death Guard. Kind of like Deathwing Knights are a seperate unit that lacks a bunch of options normal terminators have.

For the players with a bunch of stuff that can't be Death Guard, at least you can Nurgle-mark it and still run your army as a 'Death Guard Army' even if everything doesn't actually have the Death Guard keyword. It still sucks and GW shouldn't force you to do this, but it is at least perfectly viable on the tabletop.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
For the players with a bunch of stuff that can't be Death Guard, at least you can Nurgle-mark it and still run your army as a 'Death Guard Army' even if everything doesn't actually have the Death Guard keyword. It still sucks and GW shouldn't force you to do this, but it is at least perfectly viable on the tabletop.

My point is that there shouldn't be a distinction between the two.

"Plague Terminator" and "Terminator w/Mark of Nurgle" should be one and the same. "Death Guard" or not is just where they're from originally (the Death Guard Legion, or not the Death Guard Legion).

The new DG terminators may be given some kind of crazy off the wall name. Plus it's kind of implied by that leaked image they will have some unique weapons cause it looks like he's using a plaguespitter and an axe in the other hand. Plus the blurred one in the background looks like he has a plague censer or melee weapon of some kind. I think they will have more unique options besides what ordinary chaos terminators have access to. GW did say DG would be able to stand alone as their own army when their release is all said and done.

BrianDavion wrote:
anyway let's adopt a wait and see approuch, for all we know deathguard terminators are gonna be in the "so awesome there'd be no reason to take normal termies" catagory. although personally I'm of the opinion whatb we'll likely see are a combi bolter and plague sword, that can be swapped for a plague reaper, with some heavy weapons options mixed in.

A unit of DG Termies with Plague Reapers would be amazing. This needs to be a thing now

 Tiberius501 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
anyway let's adopt a wait and see approuch, for all we know deathguard terminators are gonna be in the "so awesome there'd be no reason to take normal termies" catagory. although personally I'm of the opinion whatb we'll likely see are a combi bolter and plague sword, that can be swapped for a plague reaper, with some heavy weapons options mixed in.

A unit of DG Termies with Plague Reapers would be amazing. This needs to be a thing now

I honestly think it'd be a solid unit and not overly OP. you'd be looking at M 4" WS3 BS3 S4 T5 W2 a2 SV 2+ with a 4++ armor save disgustingly resiliant and then the plague reaper stats, it'd be a pretty close approximiation to loyalist marine Hammernators.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
anyway let's adopt a wait and see approuch, for all we know deathguard terminators are gonna be in the "so awesome there'd be no reason to take normal termies" catagory. although personally I'm of the opinion whatb we'll likely see are a combi bolter and plague sword, that can be swapped for a plague reaper, with some heavy weapons options mixed in.

A unit of DG Termies with Plague Reapers would be amazing. This needs to be a thing now

I honestly think it'd be a solid unit and not overly OP. you'd be looking at M 4" WS3 BS3 S4 T5 W2 a2 SV 2+ with a 4++ armor save disgustingly resiliant and then the plague reaper stats, it'd be a pretty close approximiation to loyalist marine Hammernators.

Yeah it sounds awesome and would look badass. A Squad of them teleporting in with a Lord of Contagion would be an amazing flanking unit to take on a lot of things. That many attacks with all that dmg would still be a pretty big threat to vehicles, even if they're wounding on 5's. and they'd be gloriously survivable, but still beatable to high Str/dmg weapons

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Plague Terminator" and "Terminator w/Mark of Nurgle" should be one and the same. "Death Guard" or not is just where they're from originally (the Death Guard Legion, or not the Death Guard Legion).

I think I'd like there to be a difference between a DG vet and a Renegade that turned right before today's breakfast.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.

Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...

8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.

Not sure who that's aimed at....

People who defend nonsense like Death Guard losing options when there's no real reason for it beyond "the intern writing it forgot they exist."

 Arbitrator wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.

Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...

8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.

Not sure who that's aimed at....

People who defend nonsense like Death Guard losing options when there's no real reason for it beyond "the intern writing it forgot they exist."

yet again we dunno what the new codex'll be like, take a chill pill and relax. wait until we see the actual codex before you judge eaither way. yeah death guard are getting a pretty massive change, thats pretty obvious. on the other hand haven't chaos players been saying for ages they wanted more stuff to match the IOM? looks like GW's giving you that

BrianDavion wrote:


yet again we dunno what the new codex'll be like, take a chill pill and relax. wait until we see the actual codex before you judge eaither way. yeah death guard are getting a pretty massive change, thats pretty obvious. on the other hand haven't chaos players been saying for ages they wanted more stuff to match the IOM? looks like GW's giving you that

There's a significant difference though with IoM and Chaos.

For example - DA and SW Terminators can still be armed exactly the same as a normal Terminator squad or Terminator Assault squad. But they ALSO have bonus weapon options on top of that.

What has been hinted is that Death Guard Terminators will be getting a fixed weapon set that cannot be changed.

Sure, we want the same level of detail - but completely losing options and units is not getting the same level of detail - it's worse. And it's a slap in the face to people with existing armies.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.

Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...

8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.

Not sure who that's aimed at....

People who defend nonsense like Death Guard losing options when there's no real reason for it beyond "the intern writing it forgot they exist."

You. I like you.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
I think I'd like there to be a difference between a DG vet and a Renegade that turned right before today's breakfast.

And that's where the overall rules of the army come into play, rather than the units.

I suppose this is one of those agree-to-disagree moments, because I think they difference should be at unit level. I want an allied Death Guard detachment in a Black Legion force to be markedly different to a squad of Chosen with the Mark of Nurgle.

So, do you guys think they'll start revealing our stuff after the Space Marine codex hits? Or do you think we'll be waiting through the Grey Knight and Chaos codices, right up until our Codex's release date is announced?

Tiberius, I think they will continue to respond to the eventual leak but the original plan for Death Guard info is August

Old Gav THorpe quote


There are three types of Chaos Space Marine in the original Legions. Firstly, there are four unique Legions which chose (or were chosen!) by a single god. Each of these become utterly unique and examplars of the warriors of their god. The Death Guard were cursed and saved by Nurgle in the warp. The Thousands sons were destroyed and reborn by Ahriman's Rubric. The World Eaters created psychopathic, super-lobotomised warriors dedicated to Khorne. Fulgrinm of the Emperor's children was corrupted by Slaanesh and dragged his Legion down into the cult of pleasure.

Secondly, there were the Legions that never dedicated themselves to one patron and worship them all equally. Some of these warriors may even choose a single god as patron, and bear his mark, but this does not make them Plague Marines or Berzerkers any more than it does any later Renegades that have turned to Chaos adopting the Mark of a God.

Lastly there is the Black Legion who, having once been led by Horus and by nefarious means since, have learned the secrets of these transformations from the original four Legions. So while as a Legion they are not dedicated to a single god over an other, individuals may choose to have the mark of a gods or, going one stage even further, undergo the lobotomisation/ blessing of Nurgle/ rubric/ cult of pleasure initiation to turn them fully into a Noise Marine or whatever. The 'cult' Marines come from either the Black Legion or one of the original Four Cult Legions, and nowhere else.

GAV

The lack of a Mark of Tzeentch without being a 'Rubric Marine' is an oversight in the current Codex and highlights what has, in my opinion, been some inconsistent misrepresentation of the cults. We've been doing quite a bit of thinking about this and looking at the original background (pre-first Codex Choas even). The line that anyone can be a bezerker is an error – they really can't. The Berzerkers were created by Angron during a particular time and blessed by Khorne.

This has been further exacerbated by later versions of the Codex blurring the lines between Marked Marines and Cult Marines, so that it is now unclear whether all Khorne-marked Marines are Berzerkers, for example.

On the other hand…

The 40K universe is intended to be large and inclusive. So while you may never see any official background detailing Berzerkers from anyone but the Black Legion and the World Eaters, anyone can create a story for their renegades that involves Fabius Bile, a retro-engineered World Eater, some rabbit kidneys, a ball of string and a transfiguration of some Astral Claws into Berzerkers so that you can include them in your army!

That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.

Well that's how the rules are written too. A nurgle marine is very different from a Plague Marine. A Rubric Marine is very different than a Tzeentch Marine. The problem comes when GW decided to try and make stand alone factions centered around Plague Marines and Rubric Marines.

In CSM, the cult troops could be very rigid in their options because they were meant to fill a niche in the codex (in theory anyway, in practicality Rubrics have been worthless for over a decade) that was left open. It's an entirely different matter when you try to make that unit the backbone of an entire faction and then limit supporting units in that faction with even more rigid alternative units.

Short of a second Thousand Sons release, I'm not holding out much hope. DG will be a good indicator of how GW plans to make the cults stand on their own and players are already very concerned with what they see.

 Galas wrote:
That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.

That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.

That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).

I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.

That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).

I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.

Mostly, all the Cult Legions need to be able to get regular Terminators as well, but the fixed ones do make sense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.

That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).

I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.

Mostly, all the Cult Legions need to be able to get regular Terminators as well, but the fixed ones do make sense.

Fixed ones make zero sense unless they are a seperate and second unit altogether. The only reason the Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because they're Rubrics! Rubrics sacrifice a lot of versatility for raw survivability - in 2nd ed is was immunity to strength weaponry, in 3.5 it was the extra wound, with the Scarab Occult it's the increased invuln during 7th ed and in 8th it's the bonus to ALL saves against low damage weapons.

To be quite frank - I'll only accept fixed Legion Terminators for DG, WE and EC if we see the exact same nerf happen to SW, BA and DA.

And for those of you who are going ' stop overreacting, you're getting equality' - can you imagine the veritable gakstorm that would happen if BA, SW and DA Terminators lost options they've had since 2nd ed?

Let's take away the standard power fist and stormbolter combo from Wolf Guard Terminators.
Let's remove Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields from Deathwing.
Let's take away standard power fist and stormbolter for Blood Angels.

To make it even more like what DG are potentially going to get shafted with....

Your Wolf Terminators now all have a fixed layout of Power swords and combi-frost guns! Oh, you have Terminators with other layouts? Well, you can always field them with a seperate Chapter using the Imperium keyword.

Your Deathwing now all have a fixed layout of Power Fists and Power Mauls. Oh? You don't have that modelled? You have other layouts? Well it's okay....

Your Blood Angels Terminators now have a fixed layout of Power Axes and single Lightning Claws. Oh? You have other layouts....well, you can always field them as....

Do you see how telling us 'we can always field them as Nurgle Marked Terminators' isn't quite the same thing? How getting fixed weapon layouts which we're likely to not even have modelled (thus making it impossible to even physrep existing units as the new unit for 99% of us) is not a positive but a ridiculous penalty?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.

That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).

And the folk with existing Death Guard armies can go whistle or suddenly find they're not longer collecting and playing the army they thought they were? Not to mention the entirely valid objection that having limited-loadout units in a narrowly focused minifaction makes collecting that faction boring(because every army will look very very similar and the choices, such as they are, will be no-brainers) and potentially very limiting in terms of gameplay and balance as well.

If GW want to add some new special options to Death Guard units to differentiate them from Marked CSM units, cool, great, I expect DG players would be thrilled. However if, as recent releases would suggest, they're going to do a release of a handful of very specific special snowflake units with convoluted names and limited options existing DG fans have every right to be annoyed. And nobody better try quibbling that those kinds of objections are just baseless "hating" - we're talking about a company that is so monumentally petty that despite selling all of the parts necessary to build, for example, a Deathwatch Chaplain with PF and jump pack, they specifically prevent that commonplace equipment selection in the Deathwatch rules because they don't sell a Chaplain model with that exact loadout and a removable shoulderpad for the DW Addon Pack pad to go on: if they come out with a ludicrously named DG pseudoHavok unit and it doesn't include traditional Havok weapons in the box, you know they won't permit the pseudoHavoks to take those options, and that's garbage.

Yeah I think DG should have normal chaos terminators + DG special terminators. The second ones can have the fixed loadout as much as GW wants as long as the first ones remain as flexible as ever.

the problem is that after 20 YEARS of a single codex, GW has suddenly decided they wanna make death guard a "space wolves" style alternate dex. it should be no suprise that's going to be a bit.... messy

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They shouldn't. If you're pat of the Thousand Sons, you're either a ghost in your armour or you're a Sorcerer. There's no room for "regular" units.

In 10,000 years they have never recruited any new marines? Just curious...

T

timd wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They shouldn't. If you're pat of the Thousand Sons, you're either a ghost in your armour or you're a Sorcerer. There's no room for "regular" units.

In 10,000 years they have never recruited any new marines? Just curious...

T

I am afraid in this case, there is no "new marine" to be found.

As H.B.M.C. wrote, either a sorcerer,
or a ghost in an armour, who serves the above sorcerer.

There may be new "apprentices" from outside the legion itself who may
become sorcerers by themselves, but without a new Rubric, no new
marines per say I think...

 His Master's Voice wrote:
I suppose this is one of those agree-to-disagree moments, because I think they difference should be at unit level. I want an allied Death Guard detachment in a Black Legion force to be markedly different to a squad of Chosen with the Mark of Nurgle.

And they would be, because Death Guard would have the rules that make them Death Guard.

If Chosen are X, and the Mark of Nurgle is Y, then Chosen with the Mark of Nurgle would be X+Y. Death Guard would be Z, so a Death Guard Chosen Squad would be X+Y+Z.

Is that clear, or am I explaining it badly?

No, I get what you're saying. That would be a good enough solution for me.