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puma713 wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
What units do we have that would benefit from the heavy weapon buff the most?

Helbrutes. Also, a Havoc-type unit, if one exists.

I keep forgetting that Helbrutes are a thing...

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Can Death Guard take the big FW dreadnoughts? The Leviathan in particular has some really nice heavy weapons that mainly suffer from having terrible range.

They are not Helbrutes.

Weren't the FW dreads FAQ'd to have the Helbrute keyword?

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

puma713 wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
What units do we have that would benefit from the heavy weapon buff the most?

Helbrutes. Also, a Havoc-type unit, if one exists.

I keep forgetting that Helbrutes are a thing...

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Can Death Guard take the big FW dreadnoughts? The Leviathan in particular has some really nice heavy weapons that mainly suffer from having terrible range.

They are not Helbrutes.

Weren't the FW dreads FAQ'd to have the Helbrute keyword?

Yes, they were.

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
So old units aren't gettig DR (or obviously t5 either). Yeah sure, so my nurgle Lords are now weaker than my basic damn marines, AGAIN. What a pathetic excuse for a release.

The only units they said arent getting DR are Helbrutes and Possessed. The post actually says most units will get DR and lists Helbrutes and Possessed as the exceptions. I would actually assume every other infantry unit will get DR.

Unless I'm missing something?

 puma713 wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

puma713 wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
What units do we have that would benefit from the heavy weapon buff the most?

Helbrutes. Also, a Havoc-type unit, if one exists.

I keep forgetting that Helbrutes are a thing...

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Can Death Guard take the big FW dreadnoughts? The Leviathan in particular has some really nice heavy weapons that mainly suffer from having terrible range.

They are not Helbrutes.

Weren't the FW dreads FAQ'd to have the Helbrute keyword?

Yes, they were.

REALLY?! Holy crap. That is huge!

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Can Death Guard take the big FW dreadnoughts? The Leviathan in particular has some really nice heavy weapons that mainly suffer from having terrible range.

They are not Helbrutes.

Weren't the FW dreads FAQ'd to have the Helbrute keyword?

Yes but whether that matters is whether DG have access to Helbrutes or HELBRUTES: one is a unit the other is a keyword.

Wow, everything said in this post is amazing. The Legion tactic is like the Black Legion's but actually good (sorry Black Legion players, that's a pretty big dick punch to you guys) and those powers are insane!

As someone else said, pox walkers can be made monstrous...

 Marshal Loss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/07/codex-focus-death-guard-part-2-special-rules-and-psychic-powers-sep-7gw-homepage-post-2/

Article up!

I swear to god it'd be nice if someone could give us an actual accurate total for how many datasheets are in this thing.



How hard is it to open a book and count the number of datasheets. Seriously. Because apparently it's way harder than you'd think. I'm sure it's not even their fault, it's however keeps telling all these PR and community people conflicting things.

Moving on: our chapter tactic is really really good and exactly what our army needs. While -1 to hit might outside 12 on everyone might have been better overall, this really helps with our range issues. Plasma PM squads and blight launcher squads both look great, and terminators actually have some interesting options for deepstriking a bit further away and not worrying about melee. Helbrutes can also run mixed loadouts much better. This is a really nice take on relentless for 8e and I'm a big fan. Do wish we had more heavy weapons to use it with as havocs seem out for sure now.

Did blades of putrification get leaked because I thought it was one of the index powers, but when I went to check it wasn't there. Swear I've seen it somewhere before. It's also pretty nice as far as it goes. Good lord though, a big cluster of plague marines kitted for melee with morty casting this on them in range of both his auras will be nasty.

Vitality is a little less fancy but not bad. Offers a bit of offense and defense. It's also handy it helps against some of the things toughness 4->5 didn't, like strength 3. Also, our marines go from being wounded on a 3+ by HB to a 5+. Which is funny.

Also, on the topic of DR... Tuesday they said our generic demon princes get DR. But our possessed and helbrutes do not. So... some of our shared units get it and others don't? Or just our shared HQs. Again, confusing.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Can Death Guard take the big FW dreadnoughts? The Leviathan in particular has some really nice heavy weapons that mainly suffer from having terrible range.

They are not Helbrutes.

Yeah they are, read the FAQ.

Qlanth wrote:

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
So old units aren't gettig DR (or obviously t5 either). Yeah sure, so my nurgle Lords are now weaker than my basic damn marines, AGAIN. What a pathetic excuse for a release.

The only units they said arent getting DR are Helbrutes and Possessed. The post actually says most units will get DR and lists Helbrutes and Possessed as the exceptions. I would actually assume every other infantry unit will get DR.

Unless I'm missing something?

"Older units like Possessed and Helbrutes" That means that they're not the only ones. If it was only vehicles it'd be fine and make sense, but since they decided to do it with an infantry unit as well, its pretty clear that Lords and Sorcerers are also going to be effected.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
REALLY?! Holy crap. That is huge!

Look at our CT again. The "helbrute" bit isn't bolded meaning it refers to the unit not the keyword, so FW dreadnoughts still don't gain access to our CT until they explicitly FAQ that they do.

GW added a keyword just for helbrutes to allow easy reference, then decided not to use it either because they thought it didn't matter because their is only one helbrute unit or just to screw with FW.

Has anyone thought about stacking Blades of Putrification and VotLW? If the unit has plague weapons that means you're doing Mortal wounds on a 5+! Basically, Girlyman is gonna be dropping bricks if a DG melee unit gets into charge range.

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
"Older units like Possessed and Helbrutes" That means that they're not the only ones. If it was only vehicles it'd be fine and make sense, but since they decided to do it with an infantry unit as well, its pretty clear that Lords and Sorcerers are also going to be effected.

But they also said DG demon princes did get DR on Tuesday. So... who knows at this point.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
"Older units like Possessed and Helbrutes" That means that they're not the only ones. If it was only vehicles it'd be fine and make sense, but since they decided to do it with an infantry unit as well, its pretty clear that Lords and Sorcerers are also going to be effected.

But they also said DG demon princes did get DR on Tuesday. So... who knows at this point.

I would be genuinely suprised if Lord's and Sorcerers don't get DR while the Daemon Prince does.

RIP Black Legion, just completely worse in every way.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/07/codex-focus-death-guard-part-2-special-rules-and-psychic-powers-sep-7gw-homepage-post-2/

Article up!

I swear to god it'd be nice if someone could give us an actual accurate total for how many datasheets are in this thing.

Spoiler:

WD says 33 and 7 new characters, the Facebook page said 15 new units, this article says 9 brand new units and the... 4 new units from dark imperium (I think they meant 5, or they don't count poxwalkers either) plus the index. None of these work properly together. Considering we have at least 3 new units according to this (plagueburst crawler and two unique types of terminators according to this) that's 3 new non character units out of 9 units total.... meaning at most 6 new characters. But even if they forgot one, how does a 22 unit index+9 new units have room for multiple demons if it is only 33 datasheets? 9+4(5) also isn't 15 so.... gah. Maybe WD included morty in the 7, but this article didn't count him as one of the 9, so it's only have 6 new characters in their total, but that leaves even less room for demons and they claimed nothing was removed from the index. Not to mention they said new demon engines plural, which I forgot about till now. Gah!!!! This makes no sense!

How hard is it to open a book and count the number of datasheets. Seriously. Because apparently it's way harder than you'd think. I'm sure it's not even their fault, it's however keeps telling all these PR and community people conflicting things.

Moving on: our chapter tactic is really really good and exactly what our army needs. While -1 to hit might outside 12 on everyone might have been better overall, this really helps with our range issues. Plasma PM squads and blight launcher squads both look great, and terminators actually have some interesting options for deepstriking a bit further away and not worrying about melee. Helbrutes can also run mixed loadouts much better. This is a really nice take on relentless for 8e and I'm a big fan. Do wish we had more heavy weapons to use it with as havocs seem out for sure now.

Did blades of putrification get leaked because I thought it was one of the index powers, but when I went to check it wasn't there. Swear I've seen it somewhere before. It's also pretty nice as far as it goes. Good lord though, a big cluster of plague marines kitted for melee with morty casting this on them in range of both his auras will be nasty.

Vitality is a little less fancy but not bad. Offers a bit of offense and defense. It's also handy it helps against some of the things toughness 4->5 didn't, like strength 3. Also, our marines go from being wounded on a 3+ by HB to a 5+. Which is funny.

Also, on the topic of DR... Tuesday they said our generic demon princes get DR. But our possessed and helbrutes do not. So... some of our shared units get it and others don't? Or just our shared HQs. Again, confusing.

Maybe when they say 4 new units, they aren't counting Plague Marines, as they've been in the game before. I have no idea how the numbers add up. Clearly GW are really good at math. Good to know daemons will be in there though.

I have to agree, our Legion tactic is very strong and really makes up for our main weakness. I'd be tempted to run a 14 man unit of plague marines with melee weapons and a couple of Blight launchers in with Morty and cast that power on them. Expensive as hell but they'd mess things up good. These powers also insane on pox walkers, making those little buggers really strong without Typhus, but almost broken with Typhus.

The +1 toughness power might also be really good for Morty as well, granting him T8. That mixed with -1 to hit from one of our other powers would definitely make him a tough nut to crack.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Has anyone thought about stacking Blades of Putrification and VotLW? If the unit has plague weapons that means you're doing Mortal wounds on a 5+! Basically, Girlyman is gonna be dropping bricks if a DG melee unit gets into charge range.

... okay I was about to say you couldn't unless we also gain access to that specific stratagem due to how stratagems work but:

1. The CSM say you must have a CSM detachment to use them. DG probably doesn't count, it probably means a detachment from the codex, as opposed to a heretic astartes detachment which we would count as.

2. However, if you had a detachment of codex CSM, you could use them freely

3. VotLW only specifies it requires a heretic astartes infantry unit. I don't see any other references to targeting such stratagems.

4. Also note some do specify <legion>, like the predator stratagem, which is specifically stated to not include DG. Others specify CSM unbolded (meaning the book) vs heretic astartes bolded (meaning the keyword)

So either

A). This is a bit of a rules screw up and potential exploit with allies gifting each other stratagems.

B). I missed a rule somewhere forbidding it.

C). We can now tell which specific stratagems we share with the normal CSM codex.

If C, it would include: Daemon shell, blasphemous vehicles, chaos boon, veterans of the long war, grandfather's blessing, tide of traitors, chaos familiar, flakk missle (if we have any infatry with ML which we currently don't), and fire frenzy.

So that's neat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Maybe when they say 4 new units, they aren't counting Plague Marines, as they've been in the game before. I have no idea how the numbers add up. Clearly GW are really good at math. Good to know daemons will be in there though.

I have to agree, our Legion tactic is very strong and really makes up for our main weakness. I'd be tempted to run a 14 man unit of plague marines with melee weapons and a couple of Blight launchers in with Morty and cast that power on them. Expensive as hell but they'd mess things up good. These powers also insane on pox walkers, making those little buggers really strong without Typhus, but almost broken with Typhus.

The +1 toughness power might also be really good for Morty as well, granting him T8. That mixed with -1 to hit from one of our other powers would definitely make him a tough nut to crack.

DI had poxwalkers, the drone, PMs, and three characters, bell dude, our special sorcerer, and the lord. Even ignoring PMs that's 5 new units. And personally I'm annoyed about the demons but to each their own.

Note blades of putrification doesn't entirely apply to poxwalkers, they don't get mortal wounds as their weapons aren't plague weapons. Presumably.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Maybe when they say 4 new units, they aren't counting Plague Marines, as they've been in the game before. I have no idea how the numbers add up. Clearly GW are really good at math. Good to know daemons will be in there though.

I have to agree, our Legion tactic is very strong and really makes up for our main weakness. I'd be tempted to run a 14 man unit of plague marines with melee weapons and a couple of Blight launchers in with Morty and cast that power on them. Expensive as hell but they'd mess things up good. These powers also insane on pox walkers, making those little buggers really strong without Typhus, but almost broken with Typhus.

The +1 toughness power might also be really good for Morty as well, granting him T8. That mixed with -1 to hit from one of our other powers would definitely make him a tough nut to crack.

DI had poxwalkers, the drone, PMs, and three characters, bell dude, our special sorcerer, and the lord. Even ignoring PMs that's 5 new units. And personally I'm annoyed about the demons but to each their own.

Note blades of putrification doesn't entirely apply to poxwalkers, they don't get mortal wounds as their weapons aren't plague weapons. Presumably.

Ah true about the number of units. I'm also clearly good at math.

And yeah, Poxos won't be doing mortal wounds, but getting +1 to wound will make them pretty nasty, mixed with the other one giving them T4-5 and S4-5

Qlanth wrote:

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
So old units aren't gettig DR (or obviously t5 either). Yeah sure, so my nurgle Lords are now weaker than my basic damn marines, AGAIN. What a pathetic excuse for a release.

The only units they said arent getting DR are Helbrutes and Possessed. The post actually says most units will get DR and lists Helbrutes and Possessed as the exceptions. I would actually assume every other infantry unit will get DR.

Unless I'm missing something?

The word like. You are missing the word like.

Older units like Possessed and Helbrutes lack Disgustingly Resilient but will benefit from your Stratagems significantly...

They're listed as examples. And when it came to mentioning older units they broke down afterwards stating what they were. So the belief that older units are not getting DR is quite a valid one.

I think everything they showed in today's article is good but not great. One big issue is that the new CSM plague marine entry changed it from Y special/melee weapons per X guys in the squad to Y special/melee weapons per unit (plus sergeant options).

So all the psychic powers and stratagems should be used on big units, but if you take a squad of 10-20 plague marines, almost all of them will be guys with bolters rather than plague weapons. Big shame. I guess they really want you to take DG terminators.

It also really stinks that the +1 str and +1 toughness is infantry only. Is there much of a point, when they are usually toughness 5 already? And lots of plague weapons already add strength?

I am crossing my fingers that plague drones get a badly needed points drop, too.

 Virules wrote:
I think everything they showed in today's article is good but not great. One big issue is that the new CSM plague marine entry changed it from Y special/melee weapons per X guys in the squad to Y special/melee weapons per unit (plus sergeant options).

So all the psychic powers and stratagems should be used on big units, but if you take a squad of 10-20 plague marines, almost all of them will be guys with bolters rather than plague weapons. Big shame. I guess they really want you to take DG terminators.

It also really stinks that the +1 str and +1 toughness is infantry only. Is there much of a point, when they are usually toughness 5 already? And lots of plague weapons already add strength?

I am crossing my fingers that plague drones get a badly needed points drop, too.

Can make poxwalkers STR 5 T 5. Or Marines t6 so heavy bolters (which primaris have a boatload of) need 5s to wound.

str00dles1 wrote:

 Virules wrote:
I think everything they showed in today's article is good but not great. One big issue is that the new CSM plague marine entry changed it from Y special/melee weapons per X guys in the squad to Y special/melee weapons per unit (plus sergeant options).

So all the psychic powers and stratagems should be used on big units, but if you take a squad of 10-20 plague marines, almost all of them will be guys with bolters rather than plague weapons. Big shame. I guess they really want you to take DG terminators.

It also really stinks that the +1 str and +1 toughness is infantry only. Is there much of a point, when they are usually toughness 5 already? And lots of plague weapons already add strength?

I am crossing my fingers that plague drones get a badly needed points drop, too.

Can make poxwalkers STR 5 T 5. Or Marines t6 so heavy bolters (which primaris have a boatload of) need 5s to wound.

I like the idea of str 5 toughness 5 poxwalkers, but too bad you can only take 20 in a squad.

 Virules wrote:
I think everything they showed in today's article is good but not great. One big issue is that the new CSM plague marine entry changed it from Y special/melee weapons per X guys in the squad to Y special/melee weapons per unit (plus sergeant options).

So all the psychic powers and stratagems should be used on big units, but if you take a squad of 10-20 plague marines, almost all of them will be guys with bolters rather than plague weapons. Big shame. I guess they really want you to take DG terminators.

It also really stinks that the +1 str and +1 toughness is infantry only. Is there much of a point, when they are usually toughness 5 already? And lots of plague weapons already add strength?

I am crossing my fingers that plague drones get a badly needed points drop, too.

PMs were like that in the codex last edition. They were great as MSU troops because of it, they didn't need 10 men to get two specials. Plus the whole fearless and T 5 fnp thing.

However, note that new plague marines can all be given plague axes to go with their knives instead of bolters, getting a second attack and the better weapon profile as well. So you can run a melee dedicated plague marine unit where the baseline is 2 A with power axes, which is as good as what normal terminators have, plus the flails/cleavers/axe+mace combo.

Toughness 6 does help vs str 3, 5, and 6, which are fairly common anti infantry weapons. Las weapons, heavy bolters, and the assault cannon for example.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The word like. You are missing the word like.

Older units like Possessed and Helbrutes lack Disgustingly Resilient but will benefit from your Stratagems significantly...

They're listed as examples. And when it came to mentioning older units they broke down afterwards stating what they were. So the belief that older units are not getting DR is quite a valid one.

Note that they didn't list an HQ though. And again, they mentioned DG demon princes will have DR. So I think HQs having it but other shared units not having it also isn't entirely unlikely. Worst comes to worst you could always use a lord on a palanquin to get T 5 and an extra wound if you wanted.

So two of the 9 are gonna be the 'new termintors'
The other one is the new tank.
So minus 4 from new units + termies
Thats what 3 units we dont 'know about' - which are hopefully havocs etc

Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, Chaos Cultists, Helbrutes, Possessed, Chaos Spawn, Chaos Land Raiders, Defilers, Chaos Predators and Chaos Rhinos (they missed deamon prices)

So unless that last unit is a version of the below 'DEATH GUARD' cannot take:
Maulerfiends
Forgefiends
Obiltertors
Havocs
Vindicators
Heldrakes
Warptalons
Raptors
Chaos Bikers
Mutilators
Chosen
Noise/Rubric/Zerks - obviously
Terminators (new unit confirmed)
Chaos space marines
Warpsmiths
Dark Apostles


hmmm.....

I'm in the (you can take these in another detachement as DEATH GUARDIANS etc) but still.... hmmmmm

 Virules wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Virules wrote:
I think everything they showed in today's article is good but not great. One big issue is that the new CSM plague marine entry changed it from Y special/melee weapons per X guys in the squad to Y special/melee weapons per unit (plus sergeant options).

So all the psychic powers and stratagems should be used on big units, but if you take a squad of 10-20 plague marines, almost all of them will be guys with bolters rather than plague weapons. Big shame. I guess they really want you to take DG terminators.

It also really stinks that the +1 str and +1 toughness is infantry only. Is there much of a point, when they are usually toughness 5 already? And lots of plague weapons already add strength?

I am crossing my fingers that plague drones get a badly needed points drop, too.

Can make poxwalkers STR 5 T 5. Or Marines t6 so heavy bolters (which primaris have a boatload of) need 5s to wound.

I like the idea of str 5 toughness 5 poxwalkers, but too bad you can only take 20 in a squad.

Can you get more than 20 when you kill a unit and get.more.models? Can the unit grow bigger than it's starting size?

Pretty sure the 20 man limit is just because that is how many you got in the starter set. Now that they have 5-10 man little additions you can get you will be able to make larger squads.

Many things are limited by the available models at the time of release. Look at the plague marine champion options in the codex, less than a regular plague marine. I bet we will see a lot more options and unit sizes once the full codex drops.

SilverAlien wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
REALLY?! Holy crap. That is huge!

Look at our CT again. The "helbrute" bit isn't bolded meaning it refers to the unit not the keyword, so FW dreadnoughts still don't gain access to our CT until they explicitly FAQ that they do.

GW added a keyword just for helbrutes to allow easy reference, then decided not to use it either because they thought it didn't matter because their is only one helbrute unit or just to screw with FW.

Dammit.

Qlanth wrote:
Can you get more than 20 when you kill a unit and get.more.models? Can the unit grow bigger than it's starting size?

I don't know if we have an answer to that from GW. I'd be tempted to say that you can keep filling the unit back up to its original model count with no problem, but if you want to go beyond that, you have to have "summoning" points set aside to do so.

Qlanth wrote:

 Virules wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Virules wrote:
I think everything they showed in today's article is good but not great. One big issue is that the new CSM plague marine entry changed it from Y special/melee weapons per X guys in the squad to Y special/melee weapons per unit (plus sergeant options).

So all the psychic powers and stratagems should be used on big units, but if you take a squad of 10-20 plague marines, almost all of them will be guys with bolters rather than plague weapons. Big shame. I guess they really want you to take DG terminators.

It also really stinks that the +1 str and +1 toughness is infantry only. Is there much of a point, when they are usually toughness 5 already? And lots of plague weapons already add strength?

I am crossing my fingers that plague drones get a badly needed points drop, too.

Can make poxwalkers STR 5 T 5. Or Marines t6 so heavy bolters (which primaris have a boatload of) need 5s to wound.

I like the idea of str 5 toughness 5 poxwalkers, but too bad you can only take 20 in a squad.

Can you get more than 20 when you kill a unit and get.more.models? Can the unit grow bigger than it's starting size?

Yeah they can. Also, PM's can have 20 man units in the CSM Dex, so it's very plausible to assume Poxos will be getting a larger unit size in the full DG Dex

Qlanth wrote:

 Virules wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Virules wrote:
I think everything they showed in today's article is good but not great. One big issue is that the new CSM plague marine entry changed it from Y special/melee weapons per X guys in the squad to Y special/melee weapons per unit (plus sergeant options).

So all the psychic powers and stratagems should be used on big units, but if you take a squad of 10-20 plague marines, almost all of them will be guys with bolters rather than plague weapons. Big shame. I guess they really want you to take DG terminators.

It also really stinks that the +1 str and +1 toughness is infantry only. Is there much of a point, when they are usually toughness 5 already? And lots of plague weapons already add strength?

I am crossing my fingers that plague drones get a badly needed points drop, too.

Can make poxwalkers STR 5 T 5. Or Marines t6 so heavy bolters (which primaris have a boatload of) need 5s to wound.

I like the idea of str 5 toughness 5 poxwalkers, but too bad you can only take 20 in a squad.

Can you get more than 20 when you kill a unit and get.more.models? Can the unit grow bigger than it's starting size?

Yea, you can. But really that's almost never going to come up. Chances of a full 20 man pox walker unit charging something, not losing any models and killing a bunch to get over 20 is unlikely. They are a good tar pit and screening unit, that's bout it

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
REALLY?! Holy crap. That is huge!

Look at our CT again. The "helbrute" bit isn't bolded meaning it refers to the unit not the keyword, so FW dreadnoughts still don't gain access to our CT until they explicitly FAQ that they do.

GW added a keyword just for helbrutes to allow easy reference, then decided not to use it either because they thought it didn't matter because their is only one helbrute unit or just to screw with FW.

Dammit.

Note this isn't consistent with the normal CSM codex, where it does apply to the helbrute keyword, and the CSM already was errata'd to apply to demon princes, which we would assume would apply as well here. So it could be those are early rules or it'll be faq'd later.