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 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
Do Lords and Sorcerers not have giving t5 of DR?

Nope. Seems that all the non-new units just have their old rules and don't even get DR added on top of it.

Makes me wonder what's so "Death Guard-y" about Death Guard Possessed when they're not as tough as Plague Marines, or why there needs to be a 'Lord of Contagion' and a 'Chaos Lord'... wouldn't they both be the same thing with different weapons?

It'd be really interesting to see what kind of mental gymnastic GW will pull to justify screwing over Lords and Sorcerers like that

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nope. Seems that all the non-new units just have their old rules and don't even get DR added on top of it.

Makes me wonder what's so "Death Guard-y" about Death Guard Possessed when they're not as tough as Plague Marines, or why there needs to be a 'Lord of Contagion' and a 'Chaos Lord'... wouldn't they both be the same thing with different weapons?

The chaos lord is a relatively cheap HQ with a decent aura to act as a force multiplier, who can also do some damage in combat if needed.

The lord of contagion is a close combat monster whose only purpose is getting into melee, who does little to boost the power of his army.

The two have different roles, rules, and in no way shape of form overlap. Keeping the chaos lord cheap is good, as he sits behind other units most of the time, while the lord of contagion needs the extra durability.

I honestly don't get why people are upset about having a useful unit and that useful unit not being burdened by paying for extra durability it doesn't need to perform its role.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Man, the stratagems are off the chain! The pox Walker one is outstanding and that one that lets all your dudes chuck a grenade in a unit, instead of just one, mixed with the guy that grants +1 to Blight grenade S and dmg is insane!

EDIT: Imagine a unit of 14 plague marines next to the grenade buff dude using that stratagem... 14d6 potential hits, S4, 2dmg...

Sounds great. The mental image of recreating Battlefield 1 (rifle) grenade spam is reason enough to do it. Already build crossbow grenade launchers, would be a nice fit for such an unit.

The Plague Marines made from the kit That one unhelmeted head in particular

Because a Lord of contagion is fluff-wise a Nurgle Chaos Lord, so it's really awkward to divide the unit like that into a guy with less toughness than a basic plague marine but good leadership skills, and a combat HQ with no leadership role.

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
It'd be really interesting to see what kind of mental gymnastic GW will pull to justify screwing over Lords and Sorcerers like that

... screwing over?

Are you saying you think the lord of contagion is the more useful HQ? That a price hike and T 5 and DR would help the chaos lord do their job better?

The only result better than what we got was T 5 and/or DR chaos lord/sorcerer for the same cost as the one in the CSM codex.

SilverAlien wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nope. Seems that all the non-new units just have their old rules and don't even get DR added on top of it.

Makes me wonder what's so "Death Guard-y" about Death Guard Possessed when they're not as tough as Plague Marines, or why there needs to be a 'Lord of Contagion' and a 'Chaos Lord'... wouldn't they both be the same thing with different weapons?

The chaos lord is a relatively cheap HQ with a decent aura to act as a force multiplier, who can also do some damage in combat if needed.

The lord of contagion is a close combat monster whose only purpose is getting into melee, who does little to boost the power of his army.

The two have different roles, rules, and in no way shape of form overlap. Keeping the chaos lord cheap is good, as he sits behind other units most of the time, while the lord of contagion needs the extra durability.

I honestly don't get why people are upset about having a useful unit and that useful unit not being burdened by paying for extra durability it doesn't need to perform its role.

don't use language like this on Dakka.
Reds8n

SilverAlien wrote:
The chaos lord is a relatively cheap HQ with a decent aura to act as a force multiplier, who can also do some damage in combat if needed.

The lord of contagion is a close combat monster whose only purpose is getting into melee, who does little to boost the power of his army.

The two have different roles, rules, and in no way shape of form overlap. Keeping the chaos lord cheap is good, as he sits behind other units most of the time, while the lord of contagion needs the extra durability.

I honestly don't get why people are upset about having a useful unit and that useful unit not being burdened by paying for extra durability it doesn't need to perform its role.

You're missing the point.

How are these units (Chaos Lord, Possessed, Helbrute, etc.) Death Guard units? They're just regular units. What are regular units doing in a Death Guard army? Why is their dedication to Nurgle not reflected in any way, shape or form? Being a Death Guard Chaos Lord used to mean something. Even if it was something as simple as T5/DR as standard for 1 extra PL or some extra points on top of whatever the cost in the Chaos 'Dex is - that'd be enough.

But right now Death Guard Possessed are just Possessed with the DG Keyword. Same for the Lord, Sorcerer, Helbrute, Cultists - you name it. Beyond that there's literally nothing about them that makes them "Nurgle".

What's the point?

changemod wrote:
Because a Lord of contagion is fluff-wise a Nurgle Chaos Lord, so it's really awkward to divide the unit like that into a guy with less toughness than a basic plague marine but good leadership skills, and a combat HQ with no leadership role.

First off, lords of contagion apparently get fleshed out in the new codex and aren't just a DG/nurgle lord in fluff.

Second, it's not really awkward even from a gameplay perspective. He's simply a DG chaos lord who took on a slightly different aspect. Remember how we had the skeletally thin morty in epic? Something like that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
The chaos lord is a relatively cheap HQ with a decent aura to act as a force multiplier, who can also do some damage in combat if needed.

The lord of contagion is a close combat monster whose only purpose is getting into melee, who does little to boost the power of his army.

The two have different roles, rules, and in no way shape of form overlap. Keeping the chaos lord cheap is good, as he sits behind other units most of the time, while the lord of contagion needs the extra durability.

I honestly don't get why people are upset about having a useful unit and that useful unit not being burdened by paying for extra durability it doesn't need to perform its role.

You're missing the point.

How are these units (Chaos Lord, Possessed, Helbrute, etc.) Death Guard units? They're just regular units. What are regular units doing in a Death Guard army? Why is their dedication to Nurgle not reflected in any way, shape or form? Being a Death Guard Chaos Lord used to mean something. Even if it was something as simple as T5/DR as standard for 1 extra PL or some extra points on top of whatever the cost in the Chaos 'Dex is - that'd be enough.

But right now Death Guard Possessed are just Possessed with the DG Keyword. Same for the Lord, Sorcerer, Helbrute, Cultists - you name it. Beyond that there's literally nothing about them that makes them "Nurgle".

What's the point?

I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How are these units (Chaos Lord, Possessed, Helbrute, etc.) Death Guard units? They're just regular units. What are regular units doing in a Death Guard army? Why is their dedication to Nurgle not reflected in any way, shape or form? Being a Death Guard Chaos Lord used to mean something. Even if it was something as simple as T5/DR as standard for 1 extra PL or some extra points on top of whatever the cost in the Chaos 'Dex is - that'd be enough.

But right now Death Guard Possessed are just Possessed with the DG Keyword. Same for the Lord, Sorcerer, Helbrute, Cultists - you name it. Beyond that there's literally nothing about them that makes them "Nurgle".

What's the point?

You mean what makes them DG besides the CT, warlord traits, psychic abilities, stratagems, and possibly wargear for the independent character

This idea it doesn't fit in the army if it doesn't have toughness 5 and DR bothers me. Being dedicated to nurgle no longer means inherently tougher, I know that still bothers people but that's not the norm now.

Seriously, does it really beggar belief their might have been some variance in how nurgle effected the chapter as a whole? I think it fits, those that weren't consumed by plague either proved their worth and ascended to a higher rank, were consumed by demons and turned into, or died. There, narrative forged. On and helbrute she weren't effected the same way due to their nature.

Complaining about the cultists is just petty, why would cultists have the same traits as everyone else? Even benefitting from CT is something we kinda handwave.

SilverAlien wrote:

changemod wrote:
Because a Lord of contagion is fluff-wise a Nurgle Chaos Lord, so it's really awkward to divide the unit like that into a guy with less toughness than a basic plague marine but good leadership skills, and a combat HQ with no leadership role.

First off, lords of contagion apparently get fleshed out in the new codex and aren't just a DG/nurgle lord in fluff.

Second, it's not really awkward even from a gameplay perspective. He's simply a DG chaos lord who took on a slightly different aspect. Remember how we had the skeletally thin morty in epic? Something like that.

You can twist words to justify anything in fluff to gameplay relationships, but it may be a good idea to step back and think if you're doing so out of raw contrariness.

Anyhow Typhus was specifically a first captain, and frankly the first captain of a legion is probably easily equivalent to a modern chapter master. Are you saying him having no captain aura actually makes much sense?

 Galas wrote:
I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.

Sorry that doesn't track.

Plague Marines are different from Chaos Space Marines. The Marines of the Death Guard, due to their devotion to Nurgle, are different to those that are not (Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors). Same could be said of Rubrics, Berzerkers and Noise Marines and their comparison to regular Chaos Space Marines.

But Plague Marine Possessed are... the same? You only get to be a "Nurgle" HQ if you're a Death Guard Lord of Contagion, but not if you're a Death Guard Chaos Lord? What???

changemod wrote:
You can twist words to justify anything in fluff to gameplay relationships, but it may be a good idea to step back and think if you're doing so out of raw contrariness.

Anyhow Typhus was specifically a first captain, and frankly the first captain of a legion is probably easily equivalent to a modern chapter master. Are you saying him having no captain aura actually makes much sense?

Well, yes it entirely makes sense typhus wouldn't be a great leader, he's kinda been doing his own thing and is focused far more on disease, particularly the various zombie plagues, than anything to do with his fellow legionnaires. It'd make perfect sense he wouldn't exactly be used to leading his fellow DG marines anymore.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How does it make any sense that there are Death Guard Chaos Lords/Sorcerers that are T4?

"Fresh" recruits?

Daedalus81 wrote:

"Fresh" recruits?

For their leadership?

They should at least get a 'mark of Nurgle' upgrade to give them Death Guard stats and rules.

He has a point.

Will want to see the Codex to be sure there's no way past that. If not, I can't see people using them.

Other than that, I'm absolutely loving the new model range, even if my Thousand Sons are a smidgen jelly that they got so many new toys!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How does it make any sense that there are Death Guard Chaos Lords/Sorcerers that are T4?

"Fresh" recruits?

Yes, my freshly recruited Chaos Lord.

Really?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry that doesn't track.

Plague Marines are different from Chaos Space Marines. The Marines of the Death Guard, due to their devotion to Nurgle, are different to those that are not (Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors). Same could be said of Rubrics, Berzerkers and Noise Marines and their comparison to regular Chaos Space Marines.

But Plague Marine Possessed are... the same? You only get to be a "Nurgle" HQ if you're a Death Guard Lord of Contagion, but not if you're a Death Guard Chaos Lord? What???

This is the crux of the issue: even within the DG there is variance in how infected and disease ridden a marine was. That shouldn't be that weird an idea.

Pre traitor legion 6th and 7th, PM were super infected, while nurgle marked everything else were a lesser example. Then traitors legions made the entire army PM level. Now we've changed things again. Most of the army is PM level of infected, with rare exceptions of less infected marines still within the DG operating at normal mark of nurgle levels which yes, isn't enough for a characteristic boost anymore.

Not even enough for a single special rule?

Again, this doesn't track. The Chaos Lord dedicated to Nurgle who is part of the Death Guard is no different to the Chaos Lord who isn't. That makes -zero- sense.

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
It'd be really interesting to see what kind of mental gymnastic GW will pull to justify screwing over Lords and Sorcerers like that

They can't be easily shot at anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not even enough for a single special rule?

Again, this doesn't track. The Chaos Lord dedicated to Nurgle who is part of the Death Guard is no different to the Chaos Lord who isn't. That makes -zero- sense.

Do they get DR?

SilverAlien wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry that doesn't track.

Plague Marines are different from Chaos Space Marines. The Marines of the Death Guard, due to their devotion to Nurgle, are different to those that are not (Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors). Same could be said of Rubrics, Berzerkers and Noise Marines and their comparison to regular Chaos Space Marines.

But Plague Marine Possessed are... the same? You only get to be a "Nurgle" HQ if you're a Death Guard Lord of Contagion, but not if you're a Death Guard Chaos Lord? What???

This is the crux of the issue: even within the DG there is variance in how infected and disease ridden a marine was. That shouldn't be that weird an idea.

Pre traitor legion 6th and 7th, PM were super infected, while nurgle marked everything else were a lesser example. Then traitors legions made the entire army PM level. Now we've changed things again. Most of the army is PM level of infected, with rare exceptions of less infected marines still within the DG operating at normal mark of nurgle levels which yes, isn't enough for a characteristic boost anymore.

Sounds like your a shill but okay

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.

Sorry that doesn't track.

Plague Marines are different from Chaos Space Marines. The Marines of the Death Guard, due to their devotion to Nurgle, are different to those that are not (Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors). Same could be said of Rubrics, Berzerkers and Noise Marines and their comparison to regular Chaos Space Marines.

But Plague Marine Possessed are... the same? You only get to be a "Nurgle" HQ if you're a Death Guard Lord of Contagion, but not if you're a Death Guard Chaos Lord? What???

Ok, that makes sense. One can say that they are Chaos Space Marine possesed devoted to Nurgle, not Possesed Plague Marines, but it could be cooler to have all Deathguard units in the DG codex had Death Guard rules, yes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not even enough for a single special rule?

Again, this doesn't track. The Chaos Lord dedicated to Nurgle who is part of the Death Guard is no different to the Chaos Lord who isn't. That makes -zero- sense.

The idea being marked by nurgle= higher toughness is one that people keep holding onto. It's not. Someone can be devoted to nurgle and have the same characteristics as a normal chaos lord, same with the other gods.

Also, he isn't different besides relics he can wield, warlord traits he can have, CT, stratagems he can use and benefit from, psychic powers for the sorcerer, warhead options, and his required mark of nurgle. As in, he isn't the exact same as a chaos lord, he just isn't different in the exact way you demand he must be, which is mostly a carryover from the last couple codices.

SilverAlien wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not even enough for a single special rule?

Again, this doesn't track. The Chaos Lord dedicated to Nurgle who is part of the Death Guard is no different to the Chaos Lord who isn't. That makes -zero- sense.

The idea being marked by nurgle= higher toughness is one that people keep holding onto. It's not. Someone can be devoted to nurgle and have the same characteristics as a normal chaos lord, same with the other gods.

Also, he isn't different besides relics he can wield, warlord traits he can have, CT, stratagems he can use and benefit from, psychic powers for the sorcerer, warhead options, and his required mark of nurgle. As in, he isn't the exact same as a chaos lord, he just isn't different in the exact way you demand he must be, which is mostly a carryover from the last couple codices.

But he has a point. The DG codex Chaos Lord isn't a normal Chaos Lord devoted to nurgle. Thats a Chaos Lord of the CSM codex with Mark of Nurgle. He is a Death Guard Chaos Lord, so a Chaos Lord of the Legion dedicated to Nurgle where they all have the Mark of Nurgle 2.0.

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
Sounds like your a shill but okay

Sounds like you all are still made mark of nurgle doesn't mean a toughness boost.

Bothers you that much, use one on a palanquin ffs.

I really like the DG helmet on the codex cover, I hope that was based on an actual sculpt option in the kit. All of this stuff looks great. It's been a long time coming but man my steam has run out since I got the starter set. I have all the DG stuff built from that though. I came real close to just selling all of it.

Also not looking forward to seeing the prices on those individual clampack dudes, they look awesome but if they are more than 25 usd each you can forget it.

 Galas wrote:
But he has a point. The DG codex Chaos Lord isn't a normal Chaos Lord devoted to nurgle. Thats a Chaos Lord of the CSM codex with Mark of Nurgle. He is a Death Guard Chaos Lord, so a Chaos Lord of the Legion dedicated to Nurgle where they all have the Mark of Nurgle 2.0.

"All have mark of nurgle 2.0"? Where did you get that idea out of curiosity. They are all marked by nurgle yes, but traitor legions is the only supplement that made them all toughness 5 and fnp. On the table top, even back when legions had full rules, death guard as whole weren't tougher than anyone else with the mark of nurgle. PM were later on, but even then the fluff tended to indicate the PM were the bread and butter of the DG rather than being the entirety of their legion, with others not going through the same process needed to create them (and yes, it was described as a process to create one). It was really just traitor legions that started identifying DG as being entirely PM, both in fluff and crunch.

People are always really selective when they start talking about how something totally breaks lore, and this is no exception. Every member of the DG is currently not blessed with a plague marine's resilience, some are merely CSM marked normally by nurgle. Historically that's actually more supported than the entire legion being tougher than those marked by nurgle, both looking at fluff and crunch. It's simply a step back from the one most recent in people's minds.

 Thargrim wrote:

Also not looking forward to seeing the prices on those individual clampack dudes, they look awesome but if they are more than 25 usd each you can forget it.

Man, I hope they don´t get the primaris threatment and come in a box of 4. But clampack seems more propably.

MWG I love don't get me wrong, but to say a Tallyman who costs 67pts and you can get CP's reimbursed on a 7+ every time you use them isn't competitive? HEEEELLLLLOOOOO??????