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Thats a bit disappointing....

Neronoxx wrote:
Thats a bit disappointing....

Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.

You add 10-15 points just like with the last codex. It isn't particularly hard to figure out ya know.

Yeah such as a new codex would be a great chance to modify points!

I think, genuinely what you're seeing is a distant echo of the no-model-no-rules policy. While this could have been circumvented by a simple wargear piece (read: Mark of Nurgle) for the characters...I think they would have considered having an alternate entry reading "Plague Chaos Lord" etc...and you simply won't get rules without a proper model. Same reason your wargear options are woefully sad.

It's probably the worst knock-on effect in the entire 40K build right now.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
Thats a bit disappointing....

Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.

The disappointment may be from the point that people's models are only useful if they conform to the newest model being sold such as chaos lords. There is no reason all deathguard shouldn't have t5 with DR since they are deathguard...

Pseudomonas wrote:
What is the name of the codex again?

Exactly!

Pseudomonas wrote:
Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.

Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.

False dilemma.

This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
Thats a bit disappointing....

Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.

Models are fantastic.
What sounds so utterly dissappointing is how this GW utterly fails to handle Chaos releases.
The lack of Toughness 5 and DR on Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and possessed is simply unforgivable. It's a failure understand what fans wanted and a failure to interpret their own fluff on a basic level that is so worringly obvious that it throws into doubt every other release GW has yet to do; what will the next army lose?

What was the point of releasing a DEATHGUARD codex with vanilla units in it? These aren't the codex adherent astartes - these are devout followers of nurgle without his signature blessings and rules to make the army different.

Why should I spend $50 on a book that wasn't the best they had to offer me? Why should any of us reward them for this lazy cut and paste job?

I don't think I will be purchasing the codex, as sad as it is, until they fix this. If I do, it'll be at a massive discount from a 3rd party. Even still, it makes me scared for my thousand sons, who already have virtually nothing.
Will they get copy and paste sorcerers and lords?
What about possessed? World Eaters?
How will they feth over Blood Angels?
Really discouraging given how I've waited almost 6 months for this flop.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

The sheer fact that I agree with everything H.B.M.C. has said in this thread is an eye-opening prospect.

I don't think this is the result of laziness. I think what you are seeing is the direct manifestation of model-driven rules. The Chaos Lord comes in a box with "Chaos Lord" on it. That particular model has a specific set of rules (aka datasheet) tied to it. If you include it in your army it will have that set of rules regardless of what army you're playing. Do DG use a different model for their Chaos Lord than CSM? No? Then the rules are the same.

This is the No Model No Rules policy taken to the extreme. Not only do you not get rules where no model exists to represent them, the correspondence is now strictly one-to-one. No more using the same model to represent different things. And heaven help you if I catch you converting something to use as something else.

I'm sure somewhere in the studio they've got a big binder of datasheets sorted by SKU.

Eye-opening?

To extend the metaphor, imagine how much you'd see if you just did that all the time.

Man I'm super impressed. I already have a list idea, though I need to know the points to lock it in.
It probably sucks but it'll look awesome haha

Neronoxx wrote:

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
Thats a bit disappointing....

Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.

Models are fantastic.
What sounds so utterly dissappointing is how this GW utterly fails to handle Chaos releases.
The lack of Toughness 5 and DR on Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and possessed is simply unforgivable. It's a failure understand what fans wanted and a failure to interpret their own fluff on a basic level that is so worringly obvious that it throws into doubt every other release GW has yet to do; what will the next army lose?

What was the point of releasing a DEATHGUARD codex with vanilla units in it? These aren't the codex adherent astartes - these are devout followers of nurgle without his signature blessings and rules to make the army different.

Why should I spend $50 on a book that wasn't the best they had to offer me? Why should any of us reward them for this lazy cut and paste job?

I don't think I will be purchasing the codex, as sad as it is, until they fix this. If I do, it'll be at a massive discount from a 3rd party. Even still, it makes me scared for my thousand sons, who already have virtually nothing.
Will they get copy and paste sorcerers and lords?
What about possessed? World Eaters?
How will they feth over Blood Angels?
Really discouraging given how I've waited almost 6 months for this flop.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Pseudomonas wrote:
What is the name of the codex again? Exactly.

Exactly!

Pseudomonas wrote:
Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.

Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.

False dilemma.

This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.

The sheer fact that I agree with everything H.B.M.C. has said in this thread is an eye-opening prospect.

Fair enough, but I think it has something to do with game balance. Also, in the long run, I do not think these models missing the +1t and DR are going to make that huge of a difference. Does it screw with the theme of the army? Sure. But lets be honest, it doesn't make the army unplayable.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:
Fair enough, but I think it has something to do with game balance.

If it is I can't figure out how.

The far more likely (and demonstrably so) reason is the one Doobie gave above. This is the "No Model/No Rules" policy in its ultimate form - hard baked into a brand new Codex that allows zero variation from the plastic miniatures they sell and, more importantly, as they sell them.

I've got a Chaos Lord miniature with the Death Guard Terminator FW conversion kit. He has twin Lightning Claws. He will be T4 whilst his 9 other Nurgle Terminator buddies get to be T5/DR because... GW don't sell a Death Guard Terminator Lord kit.

 Kirasu wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.

You add 10-15 points just like with the last codex. It isn't particularly hard to figure out ya know.

Yeah such as a new codex would be a great chance to modify points!

I should have clarified; I meant that may be why GW didn't do it, even though I think they should have. A reason, not an excuse.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:
Fair enough, but I think it has something to do with game balance.

If it is I can't figure out how.

The far more likely (and demonstrably so) reason is the one Doobie gave above. This is the "No Model/No Rules" policy in its ultimate form - hard baked into a brand new Codex that allows zero variation from the plastic miniatures they sell and, more importantly, as they sell them.

I've got a Chaos Lord miniature with the Death Guard Terminator FW conversion kit. He has twin Lightning Claws. He will be T4 whilst his 9 other Nurgle Terminator buddies get to be T5/DR because... GW don't sell a Death Guard Terminator Lord kit.

Give him the warlord trait Hulking Physique if you really want him to be T5 with his buddies. I know it's a big sacrifice but RAW for now that's the best you can do.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

Spoiler:

Neronoxx wrote:

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
Thats a bit disappointing....

Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.

Models are fantastic.
What sounds so utterly dissappointing is how this GW utterly fails to handle Chaos releases.
The lack of Toughness 5 and DR on Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and possessed is simply unforgivable. It's a failure understand what fans wanted and a failure to interpret their own fluff on a basic level that is so worringly obvious that it throws into doubt every other release GW has yet to do; what will the next army lose?

What was the point of releasing a DEATHGUARD codex with vanilla units in it? These aren't the codex adherent astartes - these are devout followers of nurgle without his signature blessings and rules to make the army different.

Why should I spend $50 on a book that wasn't the best they had to offer me? Why should any of us reward them for this lazy cut and paste job?

I don't think I will be purchasing the codex, as sad as it is, until they fix this. If I do, it'll be at a massive discount from a 3rd party. Even still, it makes me scared for my thousand sons, who already have virtually nothing.
Will they get copy and paste sorcerers and lords?
What about possessed? World Eaters?
How will they feth over Blood Angels?
Really discouraging given how I've waited almost 6 months for this flop.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
[spoiler]

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Pseudomonas wrote:
What is the name of the codex again? Exactly.

Exactly!

Pseudomonas wrote:
Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.

Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.

False dilemma.

This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.

The sheer fact that I agree with everything H.B.M.C. has said in this thread is an eye-opening prospect.

Fair enough, but I think it has something to do with game balance. Also, in the long run, I do not think these models missing the +1t and DR are going to make that huge of a difference. [/spoiler]Does it screw with the theme of the army? Sure. But lets be honest, it doesn't make the army unplayable.

It does if you play for the theme. What about that do you not understand?
I had to suffer through this garbage in 7th playing Blood Angels, I'm not going to again.

470 pts. for Mortarion. Seems a little high, imo, especially with Rouboute across the field costing 120 less than that. Really impressed with Plagueburst Crawlers. Probably auto-include 3 of those in each list. Also, my favorite unit is probably the new blight hauler. Not only are the rules good, but I LOVE the model. Can't wait to get my hands on some of these new units.

 puma713 wrote:
470 pts. for Mortarion. Seems a little high, imo, especially with Rouboute across the field costing 120 less than that. Really impressed with Plagueburst Crawlers. Probably auto-include 3 of those in each list. Also, my favorite unit is probably the new blight hauler. Not only are the rules good, but I LOVE the model. Can't wait to get my hands on some of these new units.

I think we all know that Roboute is at least 25-50 points undercosted. That being said, I did two test games with proxy mortarion today with nurgle daemon allies, and he was incredible. In the first game he killed a bunch of primaris marines, a storm raven, and then killed Gullimen twice. In the second game he killed a trygon, old one eye, 3 carnifexes, 17 genestealers, and 2 zoanthropes. In both games the only reason Morty didn't kill more things is because I tabled my opponent and ran out of targets.

 Virules wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
470 pts. for Mortarion. Seems a little high, imo, especially with Rouboute across the field costing 120 less than that. Really impressed with Plagueburst Crawlers. Probably auto-include 3 of those in each list. Also, my favorite unit is probably the new blight hauler. Not only are the rules good, but I LOVE the model. Can't wait to get my hands on some of these new units.

I think we all know that Roboute is at least 25-50 points undercosted. That being said, I did two test games with proxy mortarion today with nurgle daemon allies, and he was incredible. In the first game he killed a bunch of primaris marines, a storm raven, and then killed Gullimen twice. In the second game he killed a trygon, old one eye, 3 carnifexes, 17 genestealers, and 2 zoanthropes. In both games the only reason Morty didn't kill more things is because I tabled my opponent and ran out of targets.

That's encouraging. Did you run Deathshrouds with him to intercept wounds? Or did you just run Morty to test him? Would you say 470 pts. is fair?

Personally, I think a unit of Deathshrouds + Plague Surgeon + Mortarion, while expensive, would be nigh unstoppable.

I ran him in an army of all nurgle daemons with lots of stuff to get into my opponent's way so that Morty isn't the only thing they have to worry about shooting / Morty isn't easily reached by the enemy in melee to get ganged up on. I think Death Guard are still too expensive and too slow, so it is actually harder for DG to support morty compared to Nurgle Daemons.

The nurgle daemon psychic powers are nice to throw on Morty, but ultimately he didn't need them. If he can avoid dying the first two turns and can mostly pick and choose his fights, then he can cast two buffs on himself and operate without any support other than having a few other melee units nearby to tie things up (he can't fight the ENTIRE enemy army alone, after all).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, is there a list anywhere showing which CSM stratagems made it into the DG book? There are 6 DG unique ones and 14 in the book, so 8 should have made it from the CSM book.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in.

They really need to reevaluate their world then. This 'monopose' gak does nothing to prevent people making alternative miniatures and it only hurts gamers, or more specifically modellers.

Exhibit A

 Elbows wrote:
I think, genuinely what you're seeing is a distant echo of the no-model-no-rules policy. While this could have been circumvented by a simple wargear piece (read: Mark of Nurgle) for the characters...I think they would have considered having an alternate entry reading "Plague Chaos Lord" etc...and you simply won't get rules without a proper model. Same reason your wargear options are woefully sad.

It's probably the worst knock-on effect in the entire 40K build right now.

This is absolutely 100% correct. Its all the ugly effects of bureaucracy. It is like a computer made this decision because its so single minded, its so devoid of common sense. It is a decision made by someone who don't play this game.

Everyone who is trying to justify this decision by elaborate explanations is doing so in vain, except giving me a good laugh.

It is all about consistency and the larger picture. The only way we are getting the lord and sorcerer back is if they make a kit for them with all the options.



PS: The thing in the pictures from the rulebook which was speculated about being the new beast of Nurgle. It has those perforated hollowed globes all over, which you can see throughout the DG range. This indicates to me that it is not of daemonic nature, and its face plate looks a lot like the bloat drones. But seeing as its noting in the DG codex about it I'm sceptical. Either its just artists freedom, but seeing we have less and less of that these days probably not. It could be a daemon engine destined for the daemons codex.

So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?

Can we recap a second on the Blightlord Terminators? If I understand correctly for just 7pts more your terminator get +1R DR and 4++ and that minor bonus on ap in melee... this is absolutely amazing! And being the grenade launcher a special weapon everyone can get it right? While for the heavy we just got the pathetic autocannon and a couple of flamers that wont have enough range to hurt in Deep Strike. And what about the Big Cleaver? A marine use it with both hands, any possibility that the terminator can use it with one?

broxus wrote:
So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?

For summoning.

I have some questions:
Will my Grave Warden make for decent Blight Lord proxies? Can I equip all five with Blight Launchers (ie. the grenade launcher) and some powerfist equivalent?

Are there any pictures of the Datasheets, specifically Mortarion?

Do you think deathshroud from FW are about the same size (same base?) As the new GW ones?

Thommy H wrote:

broxus wrote:
So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?

For summoning.

Can't they already summon any demons from the index?

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Can we recap a second on the Blightlord Terminators? If I understand correctly for just 7pts more your terminator get +1R DR and 4++ and that minor bonus on ap in melee... this is absolutely amazing! And being the grenade launcher a special weapon everyone can get it right? While for the heavy we just got the pathetic autocannon and a couple of flamers that wont have enough range to hurt in Deep Strike. And what about the Big Cleaver? A marine use it with both hands, any possibility that the terminator can use it with one?

Except the fact that the rest of the weapons being Plague Weapons will have had a points hike too.

This means that those Terminators may be even more expensive.

broxus wrote:

Thommy H wrote:

broxus wrote:
So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?

For summoning.

Can't they already summon any demons from the index?

Correct, but they're there for reference for those that don't have the index.
Plus there's some changes to Beasts, Drones & Nurglings.

broxus wrote:

Thommy H wrote:

broxus wrote:
So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?

For summoning.

Can't they already summon any demons from the index?

Can you imagine what this thread would be like if one of the special rules included in the new Codex relied entirely on buying a separate book to get the unit rules?

Thommy H wrote:

broxus wrote:

Thommy H wrote:

broxus wrote:
So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?

For summoning.

Can't they already summon any demons from the index?

Can you imagine what this thread would be like if one of the special rules included in the new Codex relied entirely on buying a separate book to get the unit rules?

You say this like you expect people to actually summon daemons nowadays rather than start them on the board in their own detachment.