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The problem there is then <Subfaction Codex> simply becomes <Main Codex ++++> and all the happy little min-maxers and even people who simply want a competitive army of that type say "feth this for a joke - why would I ever play <Main Codex> when <Subfaction Codex> has everything in it, plus all of the new shiny additional releases.

The fact is that as long as all of the other stuff can still be taken as Chaos guys with or without the Mark of Nurgle in an allied detachment then you can still run them. The only "immersion" that's ultimately removed is a bit of mechanical rules power.

Power gaming rules should take a backseat to fluff. You should be able to build any army that exists in the fluff without exception. It's up to the player to decide what they want to run, and up to GW to properly cost things.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Power gaming rules should take a backseat to fluff. You should be able to build any army that exists in the fluff without exception. It's up to the player to decide what they want to run, and up to GW to properly cost things.

But, like, you can do this. As was pointed out to you, you can absolutely bring an army that includes Deathguard-specific units and any Nurgle-marked units from the Chaos codex. Your objection was about "power gaming rules" -- you didn't like that if you did this you wouldn't be able to have 18" rapid-fire on your bolters, I guess. You pretended that your objection was just about them all not having the same rules, but of course you can take Nurgle-marked Chaos Space Marines alongside Death Guard Plague Marines and have them share the same blanket rules -- just include them all in the same detachment.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

The problem there is then <Subfaction Codex> simply becomes <Main Codex ++++> and all the happy little min-maxers and even people who simply want a competitive army of that type say "feth this for a joke - why would I ever play <Main Codex> when <Subfaction Codex> has everything in it, plus all of the new shiny additional releases.

The fact is that as long as all of the other stuff can still be taken as Chaos guys with or without the Mark of Nurgle in an allied detachment then you can still run them. The only "immersion" that's ultimately removed is a bit of mechanical rules power.

Power gaming rules should take a backseat to fluff. You should be able to build any army that exists in the fluff without exception. It's up to the player to decide what they want to run, and up to GW to properly cost things.

The problem is that at the end of the day the fluff just exist to create armies to play with, that should have advantages and disadvantages. Dwarfs in Fantasy didn't used magic for a gameplay reason. They could totally use magic if GW fantasy writers wanted, theres dwarfs in other fantasy universes that use magic with no problem. They decided to not do it to create a gameplay mechanic to that faction.

The same applies here. If they want to justify how Death Guard can use bikers and raptors, they will do. If 5 years later they change their minds, they will write off how they don't actually do that with a retcon.

Fluff is all what matters, and at the same time, it doesn't matter.

(I'll repeat that this doesn't apply to the changes in the load outs to Terminators)

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I'm just curious how an all terminator Death Guard army would play?

I'm thinking 2x 3-man Deathshroud squads with 4x 5-man Blightlord squads with some characters smattered in.

Maybe a few Poxwalker squads for ObSec?

I think it would be fun, but how would they ever get into combat? I feel like you need land raiders or warp time unfortunately. That makes an expensive list even more expensive. Like prohibitively expensive. Maybe in a more fun power points list.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I'm just curious how an all terminator Death Guard army would play?

I'm thinking 2x 3-man Deathshroud squads with 4x 5-man Blightlord squads with some characters smattered in.

Maybe a few Poxwalker squads for ObSec?

I think it would be fun, but how would they ever get into combat? I feel like you need land raiders or warp time unfortunately. That makes an expensive list even more expensive. Like prohibitively expensive. Maybe in a more fun power points list.

I'm not too worried about it, the main purpose of this army is ironically anti terminator. A fire d of mine who plays Dark Angels is building up a Deathwing army and he's challenged me. I'm sure combat will be easy-ish seeing how everyone will be deepstriking

Is it just me or does the new typhus model look stupid.

 sennacherib wrote:
Is it just me or does the new typhus model look stupid.

I think there's definitely something off with the pose. He's stepping out with his right leg quite far, and the body is tilted left as a result. The way he's holding his weapon also seems rather silly. Lastly, although it's based off of the metal models, the nurgling on his hip just does not look good. I'm gonna be converting mine to adjust for these things.

He's still got a solid armor sculpt, and the swarm can be painted to look ace!

Well Lightning Claws are there... that's a good start!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well Lightning Claws are there... that's a good start!

Probably just for the Lord, not the Blightlords, wouldn't get your hopes up, but fingers crossed

SilverAlien wrote:

broxus wrote:
Anyone know the final cost of a hauler with all the weapon options included?

135 I think (83+25+27+0+0). Which would be about right for power 7. Which means only 405 points for a squadron of 3, not too shabby.

This is a little off, their total is 142. They are 85 base, not 83, and you have to 5 points for the little bile spurt gun. (So 85+5+25+27+0=142)

Thats from what I can tell from the leaked point cost.

Thanks, I was going off memory when I responded, I thought he had the 0 cost plague sprayer not the bile spurt. In my defense, the fact we have 6 different plague flamer variants is a bit silly.

But, like, you can do this. As was pointed out to you, you can absolutely bring an army that includes Deathguard-specific units and any Nurgle-marked units from the Chaos codex. Your objection was about "power gaming rules" -- you didn't like that if you did this you wouldn't be able to have 18" rapid-fire on your bolters, I guess. You pretended that your objection was just about them all not having the same rules, but of course you can take Nurgle-marked Chaos Space Marines alongside Death Guard Plague Marines and have them share the same blanket rules -- just include them all in the same detachment.

Ok, nobody pointed anything out to me, and I have no idea what you are talking about with 18" rapid fire bolters.

I'm not pretending anything, as I rightfully pointed out. Nurgle marked key word is not the same thing as Death Guard. Nurgle marked does not give disgustingly resilient or any other blanket special rules that come in the Death Guard codex. Meaning they don't belong to the same army. Yes, you can take them in another detachment, but its absolutely not the same thing.

Nurgle Marked is NOT the same as Death Guard. They do not share blanket rules. It's unfluffy not to put these units in the Death Guard codex and I consider it to be a lazy job.

The problem is that at the end of the day the fluff just exist to create armies to play with, that should have advantages and disadvantages. Dwarfs in Fantasy didn't used magic for a gameplay reason. They could totally use magic if GW fantasy writers wanted, theres dwarfs in other fantasy universes that use magic with no problem. They decided to not do it to create a gameplay mechanic to that faction.

The same applies here. If they want to justify how Death Guard can use bikers and raptors, they will do. If 5 years later they change their minds, they will write off how they don't actually do that with a retcon.

Fluff is all what matters, and at the same time, it doesn't matter.

(I'll repeat that this doesn't apply to the changes in the load outs to Terminators)

Theres nothing wrong with having advantages/disadvantages. I agree with this, however there is precedent for Death Guard Havocs and Bikes etc. They should have been implemented in the codex and their points costs adjusted according to how much the extra blanket special rules would affect them.

While it definitely sucks for people who have models (and I agree that "just play them as Nurgle marked" is a piss poor solution) there's definitely some logic in removing these models in order to make Death Guard its own army rather than just an extension of CSM. Bikers especially are counter to the slow, trudging march concept that Death Guard has going for it. Some sacrifices like this need to be made if you want Death Guard to have its own Cool Stuff rather than just be another type of CSM.

Heads up.

EXPECT THE SAME FOR CODEX THOUSAND SONS

If all you have is basically CSM with the MoT you're gonna have a bad time.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I'm just curious how an all terminator Death Guard army would play?

I'm thinking 2x 3-man Deathshroud squads with 4x 5-man Blightlord squads with some characters smattered in.

Maybe a few Poxwalker squads for ObSec?

I have been tinkering with the thought of a Plaguewing type army. I think it would have to be a Vanguard Detachment or two with multiple Terminator squads backed up by Plague Surgeons and Foul Blightspawns. I'm not too worried about them getting across the table - they can double-tap their combi-plasma at 18" away (so 22" threat range every turn) and probably equip a reaper autocannon.

I am still playing with the idea of Warptiming Morty on turn 1 from an allied Sorceror, giving him ~24" of movement on Turn 1, then deep-striking Deathshrouds beside him. We'll see what I can work out point-wise.

I'm thinking this as my 2000pt army.

HQ
- Lord of Contagion w/ Manreaper
- Plaguecaster
ELITE
- Blight bringer
- 5x Deathshroud
TROOP
- 14x Plague Marines w/ 2x flails, 2x Blight launchers, champ w/ fist, Plaguesword and plasma gun
- 16x Pox Walkers
- 15x Pox Walkers
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Plague Crawler w/ Heavy Slugger and 2 Entrapy Cannons
- Plague Crawler w/ Heavy Slugger and 2 Entrapy Cannons
LORD OF WAR
- Mortarion

Sharazad87 wrote:
Heads up.

EXPECT THE SAME FOR CODEX THOUSAND SONS

If all you have is basically CSM with the MoT you're gonna have a bad time.

Thousands Sons essentially had their own Codex last edition, and have a defined model range at this time. The only thing we'll likely see are additions to their roster.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Nurgle Marked is NOT the same as Death Guard. They do not share blanket rules. It's unfluffy not to put these units in the Death Guard codex and I consider it to be a lazy job.

To be fair, even some Death Guard units don't have the same rules as other Death Guard units. Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed are all 'lesser' for no apparent reason.

Sharazad87 wrote:
Heads up.

EXPECT THE SAME FOR CODEX THOUSAND SONS

If all you have is basically CSM with the MoT you're gonna have a bad time.

Don't know what you're implying there but the current mess with Terminators is particularly bad as, in their current incarnation they've been part of Death Guard armies since the Index Astartes article in 3rd ed. And they didn't have weapon restrictions back then or since. (Note Thousand Sons did - the bugbear with their fixed weapon Terminators is the fact they are Power Swords in a range that has had all of 2 power swords for Terminators since RT era so how the hell were people expected to arm their Terminators with them? Hell, if they were axes it would not only be fine as not only are Power Axes all over the place in the range...the 'sword' (a khopesh) was actually more akin to an axe historically in form and function.)

Sharazad87 wrote:
Heads up.

EXPECT THE SAME FOR CODEX THOUSAND SONS

If all you have is basically CSM with the MoT you're gonna have a bad time.

Is this directed at me? My Thousand Sons army is already designed with the restricted list in mind.

-Snip, too snarky for my own liking-

 puma713 wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I'm just curious how an all terminator Death Guard army would play?

I'm thinking 2x 3-man Deathshroud squads with 4x 5-man Blightlord squads with some characters smattered in.

Maybe a few Poxwalker squads for ObSec?

I have been tinkering with the thought of a Plaguewing type army. I think it would have to be a Vanguard Detachment or two with multiple Terminator squads backed up by Plague Surgeons and Foul Blightspawns. I'm not too worried about them getting across the table - they can double-tap their combi-plasma at 18" away (so 22" threat range every turn) and probably equip a reaper autocannon.

I am still playing with the idea of Warptiming Morty on turn 1 from an allied Sorceror, giving him ~24" of movement on Turn 1, then deep-striking Deathshrouds beside him. We'll see what I can work out point-wise.

I might throw in some pox walkers and/or plague marines for a battalion, at least if get more command points. Ill wait for the codex to come out before I make a list but I thinks a fun and doable idea

Hey guys, what do you think about a gurgle-themed Dark Mechanicum army? Im planning on having a few units of drones and haulers, along with a tallyman and biologus putrifier, with a unit or two of terminators and/or plugs marines. I'd also kitbash a bunch of skitarii and plaguebearers to make possessed ad mech guys (probably as counts-as pox walkers). What do you think?

People who have a lot of Death Guard incompatible Nurgle stuff might just be better off forgetting about the new codex entirely and just use a different, less restrictive legion's rules.

Anyone have a picture of the Blightlords data sheet and the Bloat drone data sheet? I am surprised it has not leaked yet.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
People who have a lot of Death Guard incompatible Nurgle stuff might just be better off forgetting about the new codex entirely and just use a different, less restrictive legion's rules.

Frankly we have so few units that carry over DG feels less like a subset of CSM and more like a totally new army that happens to have a few shared units. Even plague marines might as well be a new unit considering how radically their options changed, using the old version basically restricts you to half the existing options and mixing them looks fairly bad. Playing DG is basically collecting an entirely new army.

That's annoying in some ways, but means I feel less guilty about using my sorta DG painted everything as alpha legion or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:
Anyone have a picture of the Blightlords data sheet and the Bloat drone data sheet? I am surprised it has not leaked yet.

Judging by the way every review avoided those pages I think GW may have actually told people not to show them. I have no idea why.

This just appeared on my FB, no idea of the authenticity but it looks legit (and pretty cool!)

 Azreal13 wrote:
This just appeared on my FB, no idea of the authenticity but it looks legit (and pretty cool!)

I thnk that's probably 3rd party, if it were showing off a new GUO it would be showed off with the new DG models not the old ones.

The "miniature" its from creature caster..

I collect daemons and I have a lot of third party models, and I've spent a lot of time researching other purchases.

It isn't third party, at least nothing current, to my knowledge.

The GUO has been rumoured finished for some time, it isn't impossible that this photo pre dates the current release, or simply that the guy who painted it owns a bunch of old DG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT

Explains why I didn't recognise it, have avoided the Jeremy show like the plague!

As you were!