Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Index Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.

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**luke1705**

Danny slag wrote:

This vehicle is going to hit how often, once a game maybe? if you're lucky, with weapons that have very low number of shots that makes it even worse odds. If you think this is such a great idea how many of your rock-grinders do you run with the heavy mining laser instead of the flamer?

Ah hyperbole it’s been too long. Is it even a GW codex release if someone doesn’t jump to unfounded conclusions?

For what it’s worth, though, he’s probably right that GW really has yet to hit the buggy on the nose for any of the ork vehicles or any vehicles of that chassis type except maybe DE Venoms. Just too expensive for what they bring to the table. Cool model though. We’ll see if GW can get the price point right.

**Kdash**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/28/genestealer-cults-rules-preview-part-1/

New article!

Cult Ambush
This ability is at the very heart of everything it means to field the Genestealer Cults in battle. It represents the culmination of all the cult’s cunning machinations and careful planning that has led them to this battlefield. Cult Ambush gives you all the tools you need to start every battle on the front foot** – if you can maintain the momentum, victory will surely be yours.

The ability takes two forms according to how you choose to set up your units, so let’s take a quick look at each.
Setting Up Underground: During deployment, you can set up Infantry and Bike units with the Cult Ambush ability underground. At the end of any of your Movement phases, some or all of these units can emerge anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9″ from enemy models. The freedom you’ll have to suddenly strike your opponent’s forces in great force from any direction will cause mayhem with their battleplans.

Setting Up in Ambush: Were you wondering what those 28 ‘blip’ counters that come with the codex were for? They are, in fact, Cult Ambush markers designed to help you play horrible mind games with your opponent as you set up!
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/40kGSCArmyRules-Jan28-Blips20tcvdg.jpg" border="0" />

Instead of setting up a unit underground or on the battlefield, you can choose to place an ambush marker anywhere within your deployment zone. You can place a marker for each unit you choose to set up an ambush – even Transports and larger Vehicles such as a Cult Leman Russcan be set up in this manner! The crucial detail here is that you don’t need to assign which units are represented by each ambush marker – you can decide that later. There is also a sneaky Stratagem that enables you to place additional ambush markers to further confound your opponent.

If you have the first turn, you reveal all of your ambush markers at the start of your first Movement phase. If your opponent goes first, you instead reveal all of your ambush markers at the end of their first Movement phase, and they cannot move anywhere within 9″ of any ambush markers beforehand.
These markers are revealed one at a time – each time you do so, you select one unit from your army that you set up in ambush, then set up one model from that unit within 1″ of that ambush marker, followed by any other models in the unit. All units set up in this manner must be wholly within your deployment zone – that is, unless you further mess with your opponent by changing the nature of your ambush.

**Niiai**

I am unsure if this leaves the army with good delivery systems for melee?

**Cephalobeard**

Agreed. This, in fact, seems to make melee even less likely.

**Niiai**

Transports are not that hot so far in 8th edition.

We will see. Propperly costed units could just let us walk over the table with a horde. But it is not actually the playstyle we subscribe to.

Orks really nedd to use their movement tricks to make boys good. We will see.

**WindstormSCR**

On first glance, this really guts the ability of the army to hit hard with the melee units and style it seems focused on. Unless there are easy and copious rerolls for charging and ways to get bonus movement on charges.

Also worth noting, is the number of drops for deployment increased substantially, as each character will be a separate one now.

Also, from my own experiences as deathwatch, it is far, far too easy to create exclusion zones with the 9" requirement, and the ability for cults to get closer was what made them work.

**Red Corsair**

Guys in 7th the army was broken because it was too reliable and had a metric feth ton of models. Your looking at the army with index prices and applying the new leaks. Bad idea. The amr y should be much more then a large Nid stealer unit and a few abberants bombs.

With acolytes dropping to the rumored 7ppm the new system is going to be more then enough. 70points for a unit with 31 attacks that can spring up and charge is no joke. Your going to be rolling with multiple cheap units, plus we already know for a fact we have a strat to move a unit d6" after is arrives.

Also, Incontrol also played the army in 7th, he isn't new to the cult, and he is a tough critic, if he is excited and says it is solid I have no reason to doubt.

**Cephalobeard**

No, I do agree, but I think the criticism of "this is going to make x or y more difficult" is valid.

Growing pains will happen, impacts everyone with a codex, I'm just excited to see more and am glad they ripped the bandaid with the first day.

**Niiai**

The cult ambush stratagem, move 1d6 or shoot again mirrors what we used the prime for i many cases.

It sets up probable charges turn 2 and 3. I can live with that.

We still do not know what the drill, the primus or the two new chatacters related to strategy does. The one with the hiøogram table and the one with the vox speaker. It could all stil be good.

**Cephalobeard**

I'm very much curious what the Primus and Nexos do.

**luke1705**

I mean all we really need is a 3d6 charge strat and we're fine still. But this does make GSC incredibly CP intensive. Also I wonder what the primus does now

To be honest reliable deep strike on every model in our army is (on the whole) worth the sacrifice in potential wombo from a large number of units, as long as a few units a turn can still make a charge with a decently high degree of reliability.

Interesting to note that we are still not seeing the entire story, as this made me think that they are doing away with rolling on the cult ambush table entirely, but that can't be possible with the previewed Kellermorph adding 3 to a cult ambush roll.

So to be honest, this may just be a solid buff in that our backline units can cult ambush just like normal deep strike without any chance of rolling a 1 or 2, and the units that we wanted to ambush normally can perhaps still move after deep strike.

TLDR: it may seem like we know a lot of the picture now, but I don't think we even know the half of how cult ambush works yet.

**N.I.B.**

Glorified Infestation Nodes. There you go.

**Danny slag**

luke1705 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:

This vehicle is going to hit how often, once a game maybe? if you're lucky, with weapons that have very low number of shots that makes it even worse odds. If you think this is such a great idea how many of your rock-grinders do you run with the heavy mining laser instead of the flamer?

Ah hyperbole it’s been too long. Is it even a GW codex release if someone doesn’t jump to unfounded conclusions?

For what it’s worth, though, he’s probably right that GW really has yet to hit the buggy on the nose for any of the ork vehicles or any vehicles of that chassis type except maybe DE Venoms. Just too expensive for what they bring to the table. Cool model though. We’ll see if GW can get the price point right.

what unfounded conclusion, that 5+ to hit single shot heavy weapons don't hit very often? That's not hyperbole or unfounded conclusions, that's math.

It's universally known that platforms which have low number of shots and poor to hit chances aren't taken, doesn't matter on the army they simply aren't taken because they're not very good. That's just fact.

I agree they're a cool model. I want several, the rules just completely miss the mark just like the rock-grinder did.

**Red Corsair**

Cephalobeard wrote:
No, I do agree, but I think the criticism of "this is going to make x or y more difficult" is valid.

Growing pains will happen, impacts everyone with a codex, I'm just excited to see more and am glad they ripped the bandaid with the first day.

Totally fair, I started the army in 7th and the index had changed the army a lot then so I can relate. It looks like they are finding a solid middle ground rather then going back to the same well which has me excited. As I said, in 7th the army was quickly becoming boring for me since it was too good at ambushing. Last few months have been the opposite

Really can't wait to have a fleshed out book with multiple modes of attack.

**Danny slag**

Red Corsair wrote:
Guys in 7th the army was broken because it was too reliable and had a metric feth ton of models. Your looking at the army with index prices and applying the new leaks. Bad idea. The amr y should be much more then a large Nid stealer unit and a few abberants bombs.

With acolytes dropping to the rumored 7ppm the new system is going to be more then enough. 70points for a unit with 31 attacks that can spring up and charge is no joke. Your going to be rolling with multiple cheap units, plus we already know for a fact we have a strat to move a unit d6" after is arrives.

Also, Incontrol also played the army in 7th, he isn't new to the cult, and he is a tough critic, if he is excited and says it is solid I have no reason to doubt.

but those units will have a less than 30% chance to make their charges now, can't do it until turn 2, can have less units overall in ambush, and die to a stiff breeze.
Let's say you have 3 units underground, that means statistically you might get 1 unit into combat before all 3 are shot off the board. It feels real bad to pay points for units that have very low chance to do even a single point of damage before they're dead.

I even agree that the old system could be gamed too hard by taking 20 min squads of acolytes with no upgrades and 5 primus, that was cheesy and broken. I even think fluff wise i think the ambush tokens are really neat, but GW seems insistent on making close combat non-viable. This nerfed the entire foundation our army is built on, being a glass cannon close combat army.

**Red Corsair**

Danny slag wrote:
luke1705 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:

This vehicle is going to hit how often, once a game maybe? if you're lucky, with weapons that have very low number of shots that makes it even worse odds. If you think this is such a great idea how many of your rock-grinders do you run with the heavy mining laser instead of the flamer?

Ah hyperbole it’s been too long. Is it even a GW codex release if someone doesn’t jump to unfounded conclusions?

For what it’s worth, though, he’s probably right that GW really has yet to hit the buggy on the nose for any of the ork vehicles or any vehicles of that chassis type except maybe DE Venoms. Just too expensive for what they bring to the table. Cool model though. We’ll see if GW can get the price point right.

what unfounded conclusion, that 5+ to hit single shot heavy weapons don't hit very often? That's not hyperbole or unfounded conclusions, that's math.

It's universally known that platforms which have low number of shots and poor to hit chances aren't taken, doesn't matter on the army they simply aren't taken because they're not very good. That's just fact.

I agree they're a cool model. I want several, the rules just completely miss the mark just like the rock-grinder did.

Well, the point is you haven't seen the data slate yet. It might ignore the movement penalty on heavy weapons. It may have a variant set of weapons. It may, as your assuming suck. Try waiting a week for the full details though.

It reminds me a lot of the Tauros Venator which has rules for ignoring the hit penalties when moving if I recall.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny slag wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Guys in 7th the army was broken because it was too reliable and had a metric feth ton of models. Your looking at the army with index prices and applying the new leaks. Bad idea. The amr y should be much more then a large Nid stealer unit and a few abberants bombs.

With acolytes dropping to the rumored 7ppm the new system is going to be more then enough. 70points for a unit with 31 attacks that can spring up and charge is no joke. Your going to be rolling with multiple cheap units, plus we already know for a fact we have a strat to move a unit d6" after is arrives.

Also, Incontrol also played the army in 7th, he isn't new to the cult, and he is a tough critic, if he is excited and says it is solid I have no reason to doubt.

but those units will have a less than 30% chance to make their charges now, can't do it until turn 2, can have less units overall in ambush, and die to a stiff breeze.

Fluff wise i think the ambush tokens are really neat, but GW seems insistent on making close combat non-viable.

Again, your making so many assumptions. You are entitled to your opinion of the mechanics of course, but right now you have no idea what your complaining about yet.

**Danny slag**

Red Corsair wrote:

Again, your making so many assumptions. You are entitled to your opinion of the mechanics of course, but right now you have no idea what your complaining about yet.

you're right we don't know points, but again how is math an assumption. the odds of rolling high enough to charge out of a 'greater than 9 inch' deployment is about 27%, this isn't an assumption, this is math. You keep calling things that we've known from playing 8th edition for over a year "assumptions" when these are facts that universally apply to how the game works.

we also know you can't do this until turn 2, not an assumption, those are the rules.

we also know that they're not going to magically increase the armor save of GSC, this is not an assumption this is the rules (as seen by the unit previews so far.)

so nothing i've said is an assumption, these are all facts about the game, i'm unsure what you think i'm assuming here.

**Red Corsair**

Danny slag wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:

Again, your making so many assumptions. You are entitled to your opinion of the mechanics of course, but right now you have no idea what your complaining about yet.

you're right we don't know points, but again how is math an assumption. the odds of rolling high enough to charge out of a 'greater than 9 inch' deployment is about 27%, this isn't an assumption, this is math. You keep calling things that we've known from playing 8th edition for over a year "assumptions" when these are facts that universally apply to how the game works.

Because you don't have all the facts.

Not just points, but all the relevant rules.

Odds are doctrines are related to known hive fleets. Like say behemoth. Or reroll charges. Then again maybe not. I am not going to make baseless assumptions. I'll wait rather then jump to conclusions.

There could be many different ways charges are improved.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right now it's as if your looking through a key hole into a dark room and commenting on the feng shui.

**Danny slag**

Red Corsair wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:

Again, your making so many assumptions. You are entitled to your opinion of the mechanics of course, but right now you have no idea what your complaining about yet.

you're right we don't know points, but again how is math an assumption. the odds of rolling high enough to charge out of a 'greater than 9 inch' deployment is about 27%, this isn't an assumption, this is math. You keep calling things that we've known from playing 8th edition for over a year "assumptions" when these are facts that universally apply to how the game works.

Because you don't have all the facts.

Not just points, but all the relevant rules.

Odds are doctrines are related to known hive fleets. Like say behemoth. Or reroll charges. Then again maybe not. I am not going to make baseless assumptions. I'll wait rather then jump to conclusions.

There could be many different ways charges are improved.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right now it's as if your looking through a key hole into a dark room and commenting on the feng shui.

I really don't know what leads you to believe there are some drastic rule differences from what they've previewed, maybe there are, but that's highly unlikely.

My point is the design philosophy for the army was a glass cannon that can be pretty well wiped out in a single turn of shooting, while having no good shooting or tough units of it's own, but was balanced by having all sorts of tricksy ways to get a few of those bodies into combat if they threw enough meat at the grinder.
Essentially they seem to have forgotten their own design philosophy. First it was "you're a glass cannon that needs to ambush to be viable" then they nerfed the ambush hard, and forgot that's what they were using to balance out the weaknesses that are all still there.

**cole1114**

I like the blips a lot. The idea of watching an opponent invest a big push of footslogging infantry towards one side of the board only to be met with a unit of three leman russ punishers is hilarious.

**Causalis**

Here are my two ~~cents~~ Imperial Credits on the new ambush situation:

First of all I am a big fan of the blip system. I regularly play against Orks and Evil Sunz bikers etc. can easily travel over 24" and get a first turn charge off. So pushing them away 9" is very nice. And then there is the obvious tactical advantage of being able to deny a flank, place our tanks etc. outside of LOS from our opponent's AT guns etc.

Secondly yes, at first glance the new ambush mechanic seems like a regular deepstrike. 3CP for moving D6" is a bit much in my eyes but not unuseable. However, I fully expect that we will have more than enough ways to buff those charge odds or ways to set up our units closer than 9". Looking at you, Nexus, Primus, Drill Terrain, Cult Traits etc.

I just hope that our Heavy mining weapons like the Seismic Cannon or the Mining Laser will get more useful.

**Niiai**

Do we have any units that really benefit from shooting twice? Not that I cna think of of the topp of my head.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do we have any units that really benefit from shooting twice? Not that I can think of of the topp of my head.

**Astmeister**

Niiai wrote:
Do we have any units that really benefit from shooting twice? Not that I cna think of of the topp of my head.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do we have any units that really benefit from shooting twice? Not that I can think of of the topp of my head.

The gunslinger. The bike also look shooty.

**mugginns**

cole1114 wrote:
I like the blips a lot. The idea of watching an opponent invest a big push of footslogging infantry towards one side of the board only to be met with a unit of three leman russ punishers is hilarious.

That'll happen once and not again, lol

Do we have any units that really benefit from shooting twice? Not that I can think of of the topp of my head.

Not really - maybe the gunslinger and bikes, like said above, but I imagine they won't be much better than high volume autoguns

**C4790M**

Danny slag wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:

Again, your making so many assumptions. You are entitled to your opinion of the mechanics of course, but right now you have no idea what your complaining about yet.

you're right we don't know points, but again how is math an assumption. the odds of rolling high enough to charge out of a 'greater than 9 inch' deployment is about 27%, this isn't an assumption, this is math. You keep calling things that we've known from playing 8th edition for over a year "assumptions" when these are facts that universally apply to how the game works.

Because you don't have all the facts.

Not just points, but all the relevant rules.

Odds are doctrines are related to known hive fleets. Like say behemoth. Or reroll charges. Then again maybe not. I am not going to make baseless assumptions. I'll wait rather then jump to conclusions.

There could be many different ways charges are improved.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right now it's as if your looking through a key hole into a dark room and commenting on the feng shui.

I really don't know what leads you to believe there are some drastic rule differences from what they've previewed, maybe there are, but that's highly unlikely.

My point is the design philosophy for the army was a glass cannon that can be pretty well wiped out in a single turn of shooting, while having no good shooting or tough units of it's own, but was balanced by having all sorts of tricksy ways to get a few of those bodies into combat if they threw enough meat at the grinder.
Essentially they seem to have forgotten their own design philosophy. First it was "you're a glass cannon that needs to ambush to be viable" then they nerfed the ambush hard, and forgot that's what they were using to balance out the weaknesses that are all still there.

Index cult ambush only has a 33% chance of getting a less than 9” charge, unless you have primus support. Speaking of the primus, we don’t know how he interacts with the new system. Or any of our other new characters

**Causalis**

but I imagine they won't be much better than high volume autoguns

Well, at least the Gunslinger is better than an Autogun Squad since he actually hits his target and has a better chance at wounding T4 models.

**Red Corsair**

It also has a 16% shot at an impossible (more then 12") charge as well as near impossible coming in off odd board edges 33% of the time.

I think the 3 CP strat is priced correctly. Something that was tough prior was stackng buff auras. Abberants wanted to come in with a primus for consistancy, but also wanted a psycher for buffs/debuffs and the abomanant for exploding attacks. Had to choose one or risk rolling separately and daisy chaining which sucked.

With the consistant 9" arrival I can easily drop 10 aberrants or 20 purestrains and get all the buffs I want guaranteed and still get a 3d6 charge off for 3cp. Only it's better because since 1 D6 of that movement happens in the movement phase it gets me closer for declaring charge targets within 12" meaning if/when we get a fight again stratagem we can really gut a flank.

The more I think of tactics with the blips the happier I am, there are going to be some really filthy redeploys you can get on your opponent, and depending on mission, forcing them to remain over 9 from your deployment can be a major swing in missions.

BTW blips will really shaft supersonic fliers lol.

**Astmeister**

Red Corsair wrote:
It also has a 16% shot at an impossible (more then 12") charge as well as near impossible coming in off odd board edges 33% of the time.

I think the 3 CP strat is priced correctly. Something that was tough prior was stackng buff auras. Abberants wanted to come in with a primus for consistancy, but also wanted a psycher for buffs/debuffs and the abomanant for exploding attacks. Had to choose one or risk rolling separately and daisy chaining which sucked.

With the consistant 9" arrival I can easily drop 10 aberrants or 20 purestrains and get all the buffs I want guaranteed and still get a 3d6 charge off for 3cp. Only it's better because since 1 D6 of that movement happens in the movement phase it gets me closer for declaring charge targets within 12" meaning if/when we get a fight again stratagem we can really gut a flank.

The more I think of tactics with the blips the happier I am, there are going to be some really filthy redeploys you can get on your opponent, and depending on mission, forcing them to remain over 9 from your deployment can be a major swing in missions.

BTW blips will really shaft supersonic fliers lol.

The 6 inch move also has one drawback. You can get into flamer range.

**Red Corsair**

Astmeister wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
It also has a 16% shot at an impossible (more then 12") charge as well as near impossible coming in off odd board edges 33% of the time.

I think the 3 CP strat is priced correctly. Something that was tough prior was stackng buff auras. Abberants wanted to come in with a primus for consistancy, but also wanted a psycher for buffs/debuffs and the abomanant for exploding attacks. Had to choose one or risk rolling separately and daisy chaining which sucked.

With the consistant 9" arrival I can easily drop 10 aberrants or 20 purestrains and get all the buffs I want guaranteed and still get a 3d6 charge off for 3cp. Only it's better because since 1 D6 of that movement happens in the movement phase it gets me closer for declaring charge targets within 12" meaning if/when we get a fight again stratagem we can really gut a flank.

The more I think of tactics with the blips the happier I am, there are going to be some really filthy redeploys you can get on your opponent, and depending on mission, forcing them to remain over 9 from your deployment can be a major swing in missions.

BTW blips will really shaft supersonic fliers lol.

The 6 inch move also has one drawback. You can get into flamer range.

This is true, but we were with the old table as well so it's nothing new to get around at least, gotta send in a truck or use mass hypnosis first. Or charge from out of line of sight. That is a good point though. Personally I see less flamers in general though, unless they are 12-18"

**Astmeister**

Maybe flamers will have a revival after the GSC codex. They are in general very useful against squishy melee armies.