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 Manchu wrote:
Again, I don't think R1 is a terrible movie. Just like there are "good bad movies" - movies that you can enjoy despite their poor production values, terrible acting, cheesy plots and dialog, dimestore special effects, etc. - there are also "bad good movies." R1 is a bad good movie. In contrast to bad movies, R1 is a beautiful looking picture - the photography and production design are truly wonderful. The score is absolutely mediocre but does its job. The dialog is fine, sometimes even witty. But the plot is needlessly convoluted and the characters are barely sketched, which sucks because the story counts on the audience caring about them. Furthermore, the tone was all over the place. Spoof Troopers that fall like flies don't belong in a gritty movie about underdogs taking on the man.

It's funny because I agree with all of those points, as well as having issues with how R1 handled Vader and Leia, and yet thought it was a far superior film and cinematic experience to TFA.

I wouldn't say I love it, though.

 kronk wrote:
Spoof Troopers = Storm Troopers that can't shoot past Plot Armor, I take it?

Soldiers that seem genuinely incompetent. ie Any Stormtrooper in ANH after the boarding of the Tantive IV, Any Trooper in ESB after the Battle of Hoth, and well any Trooper that is in RoTJ. Arguably any Stormtrooper in R1 that isnt a Death Trooper (though they hold the idiot stick enough) or the one Shore Trooper Captain that kills Bhodi.

See also any Stormtrooper in Rebels.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
As far as anecdotes go, several non-SW fans who know me (but not one another) told me they fell asleep during R1.

That's ok. Some people even slept through blade runner.z

Man...They would have to have been black out drunk or the heaviest sleeper of all time.

Frazzled, spoof troopers killed nobody until the script was done with each one of them. When the script was done with them, the spoof trooper laser guns worked on them - but not before. Also Jyn and Moustache were killed by the Death Star. Mr Big Gun and Pilot were killed by stray grenades. Robot died because he had been shot 4,852 times while being attacked by an entire division of spoof troopers, who yes finally killed him after losing an entire regiment ... but not before Robot had accomplished everything the script required of him.

Victor, Elite Black Spoof Troopers are still Spoof Troopers. They couldn't hit a blind man slowly walking in the open. That's not just an insult. It actually happened in the movie!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
He very shamefully admits to Han that he's not a soldier, that he just works sanitation.

Do you remember the movie you are talking about? We are introduced to Finn when his storm trooper unit is deployed to Jakku. He didn't sneak on board for fun, dressed in somebody else's uniform. As a FO trooper, he was in charge of sanitation at Starkiller Base.

 Manchu wrote:

Victor, Elite Black Spoof Troopers are still Spoof Troopers. They couldn't hit a blind man slowly walking in the open. That's not just an insult. It actually happened in the movie!

I know, I just chose to chalk that up to the Force.

 Manchu wrote:
Frazzled, spoof troopers killed nobody until the script was done with each one of them. When the script was done with them, the spoof trooper laser guns worked on them - but not before. Also Jyn and Moustache were killed by the Death Star. Mr Big Gun and Pilot were killed by stray grenades. Robot died because he had been shot 4,852 times while being attacked by an entire division of spoof troopers, who yes finally killed him after losing an entire regiment ... but not before Robot had accomplished everything the script required of him.

Victor, Elite Black Spoof Troopers are still Spoof Troopers. They couldn't hit a blind man slowly walking in the open. That's not just an insult. It actually happened in the movie!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
He very shamefully admits to Han that he's not a soldier, that he just works sanitation.

Do you remember the movie you are talking about? We are introduced to Finn when his storm trooper unit is deployed to Jakku. He didn't sneak on board for fun, dressed in somebody else's uniform. As a FO trooper, he was in charge of sanitation at Starkiller Base.

Is this not how all movies are though? Ever seen dances with wolves?

No, that's not how all movies are. We don't have to look far for a counter example. In TFA, FO troopers are shown being reasonably effective throughout the movie.

Phasma was reasonably effective?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Victor, Elite Black Spoof Troopers are still Spoof Troopers. They couldn't hit a blind man slowly walking in the open. That's not just an insult. It actually happened in the movie!

I know, I just chose to chalk that up to the Force.

Exactly. Everything that seems dumb in Star Wars can be hand waved away....quite literally hand waved...like a Jedi.
You are either protected by the Force, or the Spoof Troopers aren't actually trying to kill you. Like in ANH where they were specifically trying NOT to harm anyone so they could escape and be tracked. Leia even says as much in the scene after their escape. And just so the audience knows for sure, Tarkin says the same thing a scene after that.

Although I do agree, FO Troopers do seem a bit more competent. Phasma shutting down the shields was supposed to signal a division to storm the room where they were, that's the reason she did it, afterall (that and chewie almost crushed her arm inside its armour)

-

 Manchu wrote:
Frazzled, spoof troopers killed nobody until the script was done with each one of them.

And, that is different then any movie ever, how?

When the script was done with them, the spoof trooper laser guns worked on them - but not before.

Just like in Saving Private Ryan, the Longest Day, and Julius Caesar.

Also Jyn and Moustache were killed by the Death Star.

Thats what I said. Everyone else got killed by the Good Guys (TM).

Mr Big Gun and Pilot were killed by stray grenades

.
Well if you can't shoot 'em, grenade 'em. The Bridges at Toko Ri did it better I will admit. Man that movie was boss. Someone snuck in an antiwar film in the mid 1950s!

Robot died because he had been shot 4,852 times while being attacked by an entire division of spoof troopers, who yes finally killed him after losing an entire regiment ... but not before Robot had accomplished everything the script required of him.

Kind of like those Spartans guys at the hot gates, Steve McQueen in Sand Pebbles, or Chuck Norris.

Victor, Elite Black Spoof Troopers are still Spoof Troopers. They couldn't hit a blind man slowly walking in the open.

Er...he was using the Shwarz remember?

 Manchu wrote:
Spoof Troopers that fall like flies don't belong in a gritty movie about underdogs taking on the man.

Disagree. The Empire troopers in R1 aren't terrible. They get knocked off balance by a surprise attack on a world they thought was safe from such an attack. Once they recover, their superior numbers (a garrison on a supposedly unassailable planet has no need for hardbitten veterans) still quickly make short work of the rebels present. Just not quite quickly enough.

 Manchu wrote:
No, that's not how all movies are. We don't have to look far for a counter example. In TFA, FO troopers are shown being reasonably effective throughout the movie.

I remember they shoot up a village of civilians at the beginning of the movie. I wouldn't call that competence though. I do reemember some pretty narrow escapes too. Like a stolen tie fighter flying away from a star destroyer with a pilot that never flown a tie fighter (the shots just kept missing). A girl whos never flown a space craft flying the millennium falcon away from tie fighters and making them look like idiots. I also recall a terrible character called kylo ren who supposedly slayed all of lukes Jedi warriors and beat off luke himself BUT he got beat by a girl who had never held a lightsabre ever before and also has no training - this of course was right after he faught to a draw with a storm trooper deserter who specializes in trash management. I'm not exactly seeing the competence from the empire hear.

Sure Frazzled, I agree that R1 is not the first dumb film ever made.

Xenomancers -

TFA opens with successful FO trooper operation and capture Poe. Later on, FO troopers successfully storm Maz's castle. At that battle, a FO trooper beats down one of the main characters in H2H.

Kylo Ren effortlessly fells Finn. He hesitates while fighting Rey; she doesn't.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
No, that's not how all movies are. We don't have to look far for a counter example. In TFA, FO troopers are shown being reasonably effective throughout the movie.

I remember they shoot up a village of civilians at the beginning of the movie. I wouldn't call that competence though. I do reemember some pretty narrow escapes too. Like a stolen tie fighter flying away from a star destroyer with a pilot that never flown a tie fighter (the shots just kept missing). A girl whos never flown a space craft flying the millennium falcon away from tie fighters and making them look like idiots. I also recall a terrible character called kylo ren who supposedly slayed all of lukes Jedi warriors and beat off luke himself BUT he got beat by a girl who had never held a lightsabre ever before and also has no training - this of course was right after he faught to a draw with a storm trooper deserter who specializes in trash management. I'm not exactly seeing the competence from the empire hear.

I think the moral of story is that, if you want some real badasses, grab up all the trash collectors and give them light sabers.


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 Manchu wrote:
Sure Frazzled, I agree that R1 is not the first dumb film ever made.

Xenomancers -

TFA opens with successful FO trooper operation and capture Poe. Later on, FO troopers successfully storm Maz's castle. At that battle, a FO trooper beats down one of the main characters in H2H.

Kylo Ren effortlessly fells Finn. He hesitates while fighting Rey; she doesn't.

I thought Maz had a bar?

I am actually down with the FO troopers in TFA. They were the highlight of the bad guys. Like the British army, its the officer bad guys that were pathetic and lame. Well that and, as noted, Rey is an unkillable machine with plot armor the size of a planet, which makes her scenes almost boring.

Something I just realized. Technically Kylo Ren has more force training than Anakin (pre-Vader) or RotJ Luke COMBINED.
Think about it. Anakin was trained from age 9-23 before falling to the dark-side. That's 14yrs.
Luke only trained from ANH to RotJ, so about 4 yrs.

Assuming Ben Solo was trained from childhood to the present, he clearly has more than 18 years of experience using the force and training.
So it would make sense for him to have at least as much power now (at his peak) as either Anakin or Luke at their peaks.

Just some food for thought.

-

Voss wrote:
That is simply not what is presented in the film. He very shamefully admits to Han that he's not a soldier, that he just works sanitation.
And the Order bigwigs talk about their brainwashing not holding. It seems pretty clear from what is presented in the film that he's a janitor, one of the civilians they've done mind jobs on to fill stormtrooper suits.

What movie did you watch? "Shamefully" admitting?

FINN The flooding tunnels are over that ridge. We'll get in that way.
HAN What was your job when you were based here?
FINN Sanitation.
HAN Sanitation? Then how do you know how to disable the shields?
FINN I don't. I'm just here to get Rey.
HAN People are counting on us! The galaxy is counting on us--!
FINN Solo, we'll figure it out! We'll use the Force!
HAN That's not how the Force works--!

And when you say that he was a janitor they did mind tricks on to fill stormtrooper suits... you are simply wrong.
FINN I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero. I'm a Stormtrooper. Like all of them, I was taken from a family I'll never know. And raised to do one thing.

So was it a family of travelling, amnesiac janitors he was taken from?

Anyhow, that line did come along pretty fast in the movie, amidst a lot of other exposition, so while you were wrong that's no biggie, it would have been easy to miss. But lacking that info, you instead made up your own explanation, that he was a janitor that got nabbed and press in to service, and then you complained about that explanation. Why would anyone do that? Why would someone work to invent background details, and then blame the movie when they found those invented background details unconvincing?

I mean, I get people making up their own background detail, I do that all the time. But why making up background detail, not liking it, and then blaming the movie for that? What is that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Just like in Saving Private Ryan, the Longest Day, and Julius Caesar.

The challenge is in doing it so it isn't obvious. You can do this by giving the good guys extra abilities that they use to gain advantage, like making them Jedi, or showing them using cover and outflanking the enemy or using other effective tactics. Or if that's too hard, you can just have bad guys that keep missing with no explanation while good guys spray masses of accurate fire while barely aiming, to which the villains don't even bother to take cover.

The more a movie relies on the latter, the sillier the movie is. There isn't anything automatically wrong with that, the Hong Kong action movies of the 80s and 90s reveled in this nonsense and some of those are great fun. But it is a problem when you're aiming for a tone other than 'mindless carnage'. Star Wars was never mindless carnage, and its efforts to explain how the good guys won, or at least how they escaped is kind of mixed, even within individual scenes.. The retreat from Cloud City for instance, actually has Chewie, Leia and Lando fight a pretty convincing bounding retreat... until they reach the Millenium Falcon and stand about having half a conversation in little cover while stormtroopers fire in their general direction

R1 takes that problem and turns it up to 11. Suddenly blasters are replaced by magic explosions that only ever have blast radius to kill all the stormtroopers and no-one else. One of the good guys is given a bullet hose mega weapon that kills dozens of stormtroopers a second - forget the death star, why did no-one get the plans to that mega weapon? The result is a film with action scenes that just do not feel like Star Wars. Though it's interesting to note a lot of people in this thread don't seem to have had that problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I remember they shoot up a village of civilians at the beginning of the movie. I wouldn't call that competence though. I do reemember some pretty narrow escapes too. Like a stolen tie fighter flying away from a star destroyer with a pilot that never flown a tie fighter (the shots just kept missing). A girl whos never flown a space craft flying the millennium falcon away from tie fighters and making them look like idiots. I also recall a terrible character called kylo ren who supposedly slayed all of lukes Jedi warriors and beat off luke himself BUT he got beat by a girl who had never held a lightsabre ever before and also has no training - this of course was right after he faught to a draw with a storm trooper deserter who specializes in trash management. I'm not exactly seeing the competence from the empire hear.

I'll grant you Finn and Poe escaping in a tie fighter, though that's worth a half mark really, because they don't escape but are shot down, and Star Wars is pretty consistent in pilots being able to pilot any craft without prior experience. In the first film Luke jumped right in to that X-Wing...

The other stuff though... that wasn't the Empire being idiots, that was the film making the clear point that Rey was a uniquely talented force user that could do many incredible things naturally. It is reasonable to complain that they made this point too obviously, and that they stretched her competence too far. But using it as evidence that the Empire was incompetent seems to be missing the point of the movie entirely.

 sebster wrote:
I mean, I get people making up their own background detail, I do that all the time. But why making up background detail, not liking it, and then blaming the movie for that? What is that?

I think the medical term is...

 sebster wrote:

Voss wrote:
That is simply not what is presented in the film. He very shamefully admits to Han that he's not a soldier, that he just works sanitation.
And the Order bigwigs talk about their brainwashing not holding. It seems pretty clear from what is presented in the film that he's a janitor, one of the civilians they've done mind jobs on to fill stormtrooper suits.

What movie did you watch? "Shamefully" admitting?

FINN The flooding tunnels are over that ridge. We'll get in that way.
HAN What was your job when you were based here?
FINN Sanitation.
HAN Sanitation? Then how do you know how to disable the shields?
FINN I don't. I'm just here to get Rey.
HAN People are counting on us! The galaxy is counting on us--!
FINN Solo, we'll figure it out! We'll use the Force!
HAN That's not how the Force works--!

And when you say that he was a janitor they did mind tricks on to fill stormtrooper suits... you are simply wrong.
FINN I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero. I'm a Stormtrooper. Like all of them, I was taken from a family I'll never know. And raised to do one thing.

So was it a family of travelling, amnesiac janitors he was taken from?

Anyhow, that line did come along pretty fast in the movie, amidst a lot of other exposition, so while you were wrong that's no biggie, it would have been easy to miss. But lacking that info, you instead made up your own explanation, that he was a janitor that got nabbed and press in to service, and then you complained about that explanation. Why would anyone do that? Why would someone work to invent background details, and then blame the movie when they found those invented background details unconvincing?

I mean, I get people making up their own background detail, I do that all the time. But why making up background detail, not liking it, and then blaming the movie for that? What is that?

The sanitation bit strikes me as very strange though. Beyond the fact that stormtroopers also have other responsibilities, I can accept that, why does he get sent along in the first place at the start of the movie. The fact that Kylo goes means its an important mission, but its not important enough to send along a crack squad of commandos? Aren't there stormtroopers better trained/more experienced than Finn? Are there no stormtroopers that don't have other responsibilities beyond fighting? They even openly.question his conduct. Why even take the new guy who isn't even only a soldier on such a mission. Its one part I never understand.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The sanitation bit strikes me as very strange though. Beyond the fact that stormtroopers also have other responsibilities, I can accept that, why does he get sent along in the first place at the start of the movie. The fact that Kylo goes means its an important mission, but its not important enough to send along a crack squad of commandos? Aren't there stormtroopers better trained/more experienced than Finn? Are there no stormtroopers that don't have other responsibilities beyond fighting? They even openly.question his conduct. Why even take the new guy who isn't even only a soldier on such a mission. Its one part I never understand.

I haven't read the accompanying background novels yet, but I took it as being that sanitation was just where he was assigned when he was on the Starkiller base. His posting on Ren's ship is presumably a different role.

As for who to take on the mission - presumably they thought that a couple of squads of regular Stormtroopers would be sufficient to subdue a few poorly-equipped villagers... Which would seem to be a reasonable assessment, based on how it played out.

 insaniak wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The sanitation bit strikes me as very strange though. Beyond the fact that stormtroopers also have other responsibilities, I can accept that, why does he get sent along in the first place at the start of the movie. The fact that Kylo goes means its an important mission, but its not important enough to send along a crack squad of commandos? Aren't there stormtroopers better trained/more experienced than Finn? Are there no stormtroopers that don't have other responsibilities beyond fighting? They even openly.question his conduct. Why even take the new guy who isn't even only a soldier on such a mission. Its one part I never understand.

I haven't read the accompanying background novels yet, but I took it as being that sanitation was just where he was assigned when he was on the Starkiller base. His posting on Ren's ship is presumably a different role.

As for who to take on the mission - presumably they thought that a couple of squads of regular Stormtroopers would be sufficient to subdue a few poorly-equipped villagers... Which would seem to be a reasonable assessment, based on how it played out.

True for the sanitation bit. But the mission part still bothers me. Kylo himself goes because it's that important, but then they throw in a couple of rookie squads? Why? Budget cuts on troops? Are the better ones busy elsewhere? And for stormtroopers being brainwashed from an early age and it being the baptism of fire so to speak, wouldn't Finn not shooting civilians when ordered throw up massive red flags to those in command? But not only do they not react beyond some 'harsh' words, he also has enough clearance as a seemingly low level and young stormtrooper to be able to access an important prisoner? TFA is enjoyable enough, but the start of the movie with Finn just leaves so many unanswered questions.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Kylo himself goes because it's that important, but then they throw in a couple of rookie squads?

Did they?

I don't recall any indication in the movie that the squads were all rookies, just that it was Finn's first firefight.

... wouldn't Finn not shooting civilians when ordered throw up massive red flags to those in command?

Yes. Which is why Phasma ordered him to report to her section on their return to the ship.

 insaniak wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Kylo himself goes because it's that important, but then they throw in a couple of rookie squads?

Did they?

I don't recall any indication in the movie that the squads were all rookies, just that it was Finn's first firefight.

Granted, only Finn might have been new, but then it still leaves me to wonder why they were just regulars with Kylo there.

... wouldn't Finn not shooting civilians when ordered throw up massive red flags to those in command?

Yes. Which is why Phasma ordered him to report to her section on their return to the ship.

Yeah, that's the part I consider 'harsh' words. For an organization trying to exude evil I would think ignoring a command would be treated a bit more harshly than just saying "come see me". At what point is hesitation like that a liability? If these people were trained and brainwashed since they were kids ignoring orders comes across as pretty serious. But not only is he then still given free reign, he can easily get to Poe. The more I thought about it the less sense it seemed to make.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Kylo himself goes because it's that important, but then they throw in a couple of rookie squads?

Did they?

I don't recall any indication in the movie that the squads were all rookies, just that it was Finn's first firefight.

Granted, only Finn might have been new, but then it still leaves me to wonder why they were just regulars with Kylo there.

Stormtroopers aren't 'just regulars'. They're elite shock troops. They're not often portrayed that way, but it's what they're meant to be.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Kylo himself goes because it's that important, but then they throw in a couple of rookie squads?

Did they?

I don't recall any indication in the movie that the squads were all rookies, just that it was Finn's first firefight.

Granted, only Finn might have been new, but then it still leaves me to wonder why they were just regulars with Kylo there.

Stormtroopers aren't 'just regulars'. They're elite shock troops. They're not often portrayed that way, but it's what they're meant to be.

It depends though doesn't it? The clones of the prequels certainly were meant to be. But I thought the Empire also conscripted people to serve as stormtroopers (considered worse than the clones), with Vader for example having an elite regiment. But for the FO there is little background beyond trained since childhood on screen to show the 'elite' nature. Finn certainly seems to destroy the 'since childhood' image pretty fast when it comes to training and indoctrination. Plus like you mention, their portrayel is really iffy, being used as grunts to be murdered by robots, rebels and teddy bears. And I would assume if 'regular' stormtroopers had other tasks, that there might exist a more elite unit that only focussed on fighting/special operations, which might be more of a suitable unit to send along.

 sebster wrote:

Voss wrote:
That is simply not what is presented in the film. He very shamefully admits to Han that he's not a soldier, that he just works sanitation.
And the Order bigwigs talk about their brainwashing not holding. It seems pretty clear from what is presented in the film that he's a janitor, one of the civilians they've done mind jobs on to fill stormtrooper suits.

What movie did you watch? "Shamefully" admitting?
<snip>

Facial expressions and reactions are a thing. They're kind of important to acting, in fact.
A few lines from a script captures very little of a film, unless it's a very terrible film indeed.

And when you say that he was a janitor they did mind tricks on to fill stormtrooper suits... you are simply wrong.
FINN I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero. I'm a Stormtrooper. Like all of them, I was taken from a family I'll never know. And raised to do one thing.

So was it a family of travelling, amnesiac janitors he was taken from?

Anyhow, that line did come along pretty fast in the movie, amidst a lot of other exposition, so while you were wrong that's no biggie, it would have been easy to miss. But lacking that info, you instead made up your own explanation, that he was a janitor that got nabbed and press in to service, and then you complained about that explanation. Why would anyone do that? Why would someone work to invent background details, and then blame the movie when they found those invented background details unconvincing?

I mean, I get people making up their own background detail, I do that all the time. But why making up background detail, not liking it, and then blaming the movie for that? What is that?

I like the irony. No, he was taken as a child -what his family was doesn't matter, so why are you inventing background details?

But as you admit, he himself claims to work sanitation. Nothing is made up. Here, I'll remind you:

HAN What was your job when you were based here?
FINN: Sanitation.

He worked sanitation. Hence: janitor.
If he said he taught children, I'd call him a teacher. Associating a job title with a work description isn't a stretch.

That they also use poor indoctrination to make him a poor stormtrooper is also pretty obvious as he's introduced in a stormtrooper suit, and the officer when he returns talks about problems with the indoctrination. It is all exactly what the movie presents.

 -Loki- wrote:

Stormtroopers aren't 'just regulars'. They're elite shock troops. They're not often portrayed that way, but it's what they're meant to be.

Eh. They're useless mooks, there to be beaten up.
But even given their incompetence is their only trait, for them to be 'elite shock troops,' there have to be some regulars somewhere. Where are those?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The sanitation bit strikes me as very strange though. Beyond the fact that stormtroopers also have other responsibilities, I can accept that, why does he get sent along in the first place at the start of the movie. The fact that Kylo goes means its an important mission, but its not important enough to send along a crack squad of commandos? Aren't there stormtroopers better trained/more experienced than Finn? Are there no stormtroopers that don't have other responsibilities beyond fighting? They even openly.question his conduct. Why even take the new guy who isn't even only a soldier on such a mission. Its one part I never understand.

His role there could have been security, part of the team that patrolled the system's sewers etc. And beyond that, it's a military order. Management positions are going to be given to military. Having 'loyal' soldiers overseeing civilian workers would seem pretty expected for an organisation like the First Order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
True for the sanitation bit. But the mission part still bothers me. Kylo himself goes because it's that important, but then they throw in a couple of rookie squads? Why? Budget cuts on troops? Are the better ones busy elsewhere? And for stormtroopers being brainwashed from an early age and it being the baptism of fire so to speak, wouldn't Finn not shooting civilians when ordered throw up massive red flags to those in command? But not only do they not react beyond some 'harsh' words, he also has enough clearance as a seemingly low level and young stormtrooper to be able to access an important prisoner? TFA is enjoyable enough, but the start of the movie with Finn just leaves so many unanswered questions.

I agree there's a bunch of stuff in TFA that goes unanswered (the film did nothing to explain why the Resistance is, and why it and its handful of fighters seems to be the only force in the whole of the Republic that can retalitate against the First Order). But Finn rejecting his brainwashing was pretty well handled, I think.

CAPTAIN PHASMA FN-2187 reported to my division, was evaluated and sent to Reconditioning.
GENERAL HUX No prior signs of non-conformity?
CAPTAIN PHASMA This was his first offense.

(later scene)

KYLO REN How capable are your soldiers, General?
GENERAL HUX I won't have you question my methods.
KYLO REN They're obviously skilled at committing high treason. Perhaps Leader Snoke should consider using a clone army.

So in that two brief scenes we see that soldiers do break their conditioning, enough that reconditioning is a familiar process, but not so common that senior officers don't notice it happening. We then see Ren use it to doubt the overall program and threaten the senior officer in command.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
He worked sanitation. Hence: janitor.
If he said he taught children, I'd call him a teacher. Associating a job title with a work description isn't a stretch.

If he says he taught children, then you assume he's a teacher. If he says he worked at a school, then it'd be an assumption that he was a teacher, because he could well be an administrator, receptionist, security, or a whole bunch of other jobs, even the school janitor. Finn said he worked sanitation. It was your assumption that that meant he must have been a janitor. And so the question is whether that's a sensible assumption.

And to answer that question, let's go back to your example of a person saying they worked at a school. Let's say the person who says they work at a school happened to have a pistol and a uniform that said 'security'. It'd be a pretty stupid assumption to think that person was teaching at the school, and not you know, working in security at the school.

So then we get back to Finn. Who we saw outfitted as a stormtrooper, carrying a blaster, going on combat missions as a stormtrooper. And you heard him say he was assigned to sanitation, and you concluded he must have been the janitor. Yeah.

Honestly? Seeing this trailer makes me wonder what is happening with the new Star Trek movie. I now have almost zero interest in the SW franchise.

 sebster wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The sanitation bit strikes me as very strange though. Beyond the fact that stormtroopers also have other responsibilities, I can accept that, why does he get sent along in the first place at the start of the movie. The fact that Kylo goes means its an important mission, but its not important enough to send along a crack squad of commandos? Aren't there stormtroopers better trained/more experienced than Finn? Are there no stormtroopers that don't have other responsibilities beyond fighting? They even openly.question his conduct. Why even take the new guy who isn't even only a soldier on such a mission. Its one part I never understand.

His role there could have been security, part of the team that patrolled the system's sewers etc. And beyond that, it's a military order. Management positions are going to be given to military. Having 'loyal' soldiers overseeing civilian workers would seem pretty expected for an organisation like the First Order.

Yeah I pegged it as perhaps a military engineer type of role. But it still leaves me wondering why they would send an untested engineer and not some specialist on such a sensitive mission. I would assume with some logic that you wouldn't send your logistic personnel out into the desert to kill random civilians in the first place. His age might be important in this, but I don't think its mentioned in TFA?

 sebster wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
True for the sanitation bit. But the mission part still bothers me. Kylo himself goes because it's that important, but then they throw in a couple of rookie squads? Why? Budget cuts on troops? Are the better ones busy elsewhere? And for stormtroopers being brainwashed from an early age and it being the baptism of fire so to speak, wouldn't Finn not shooting civilians when ordered throw up massive red flags to those in command? But not only do they not react beyond some 'harsh' words, he also has enough clearance as a seemingly low level and young stormtrooper to be able to access an important prisoner? TFA is enjoyable enough, but the start of the movie with Finn just leaves so many unanswered questions.

I agree there's a bunch of stuff in TFA that goes unanswered (the film did nothing to explain why the Resistance is, and why it and its handful of fighters seems to be the only force in the whole of the Republic that can retalitate against the First Order). But Finn rejecting his brainwashing was pretty well handled, I think.

CAPTAIN PHASMA FN-2187 reported to my division, was evaluated and sent to Reconditioning.
GENERAL HUX No prior signs of non-conformity?
CAPTAIN PHASMA This was his first offense.

(later scene)

KYLO REN How capable are your soldiers, General?
GENERAL HUX I won't have you question my methods.
KYLO REN They're obviously skilled at committing high treason. Perhaps Leader Snoke should consider using a clone army.

So in that two brief scenes we see that soldiers do break their conditioning, enough that reconditioning is a familiar process, but not so common that senior officers don't notice it happening. We then see Ren use it to doubt the overall program and threaten the senior officer in command.

My problem with that part is that he was sent there and not escorted. This type of behaviour seems pretty much critical to avoid in childhood indoctrinated troops, yet they handle it like a slap on the wrist of what we see on screen. No escort, no restraining etc. I would assume they would have no problems disposing of people who keep disobeying. Yet Finn gets the tough love approach. At what point does a evil murderous organization turn on its own? How hard up are they for people that they don't just throw Finn in prison untill he is re-brainwashed (which incidentally might be a better way to get him in contact with Poe, using his experience in sanitation/systems to escape?).

 sebster wrote:


So then we get back to Finn. Who we saw outfitted as a stormtrooper, carrying a blaster, going on combat missions as a stormtrooper. And you heard him say he was assigned to sanitation, and you concluded he must have been the janitor. Yeah.

Yep. Going on what was apparently his first combat mission as a stormtrooper, complete with the greenhorn shakes.
He seems fine when strapped into a seat firing a gun (like a simulator), and has no qualms with shooting loads of people (ones he knew and worked with no less) in that situation, but out in the field he's routinely useless and making obvious mistakes. Exactly what you'd expect from a poorly trained part timer.

We've then got him lying to everyone he meets, talking himself up.
Finally at the end, he admits the truth: sanitation.

I love that you're trying to make this a significant issue, but it isn't. Semi-competent sidekick worked sanitation, so I call him a janitor.

 Galef wrote:
Something I just realized. Technically Kylo Ren has more force training than Anakin (pre-Vader) or RotJ Luke COMBINED.
Think about it. Anakin was trained from age 9-23 before falling to the dark-side. That's 14yrs.
Luke only trained from ANH to RotJ, so about 4 yrs.

Assuming Ben Solo was trained from childhood to the present, he clearly has more than 18 years of experience using the force and training.
So it would make sense for him to have at least as much power now (at his peak) as either Anakin or Luke at their peaks.

Just some food for thought.

-

His abilities are well on display in the story. He catches a blaster shot mid air and freezes it in place. This is probably the greatest example of power ive seen in starwars. Then he loses to a trash boy and a girl with no training. It's a huge plot hole and it kills the story for me. I mean it absolutely kills it for me. I don't care how strong they want you to believe Rei is. Luke - the man who defeated vader - still got beat by Vader royally the first time they fought. Anakien lost to Duku after being trained by the greatest Jedis. This is just to stupid to even consider it starwars cannon IMO.