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There a list of all the pt changes then?

Any more detail on the Jorgamund specific strategem? Rumor was allowing a monster to use the trygon tunnel which would be huge for something like the swarmlord or hausperex.

tneva82 wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

Tendrils is awesome because it's a win situation - you can't possible lose any CP on it.

Which is why it's stupid and shouldn't have been done. If something is autotake/autouse you know there's something wrong.

AM gets CP back on 5+ whenever they use any, yeah that's completely wrong. At least nids have to fight for it and be up close and personal.

tneva82 wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

Gants are max 30 so max 5 MWs. Not good, maybe bad, even.

Umm it's random roll so rather than max 5MW it's average 5MW, max 30. On 40k general topic there's discussion about probability vs average calculations.

Of course, should be on average 5MW, typo.

 xttz wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Malanthrope has a better shrouding than Venomtrope as it can affect monstrous creatures

So can Venomthropes now. A unit of 3+ affect monsters too, and a unit of 6 has increased shrouding range

Yeah, kill one of three and they are down to infantry only. Kill one of six models and they are down to 3". Hilariously bad.

 N.I.B. wrote:

Yeah, kill one of three and they are down to infantry only. Kill one of six models and they are down to 3". Hilariously bad.

A detail that was missed in the leaks is that the base Venomthrope range is now 6" for 1-5 models, jumping to 9" with a full brood of six. So they get a much larger footprint compared to a Malanthrope for the same points (30 each), while a full unit can cover much of your deployment zone.

 N.I.B. wrote:


So can Venomthropes now. A unit of 3+ affect monsters too, and a unit of 6 has increased shrouding range

Yeah, kill one of three and they are down to infantry only. Kill one of six models and they are down to 3". Hilariously bad.

I really don't see why this is an issue unless you got it into your head to run a gunline for some reason. Your big bugs should be engaging on turn 2 so that's as long as they need protection for. After that the Venomthropes are useless anyway and if they're killing Venomthropes it's gun not pointed towards your other creatures.

The biggest problem I see with Zoans and Venoms is the unit size issue mixed with neurothropes being separate.

For example I currently own a Neuro and two Zoans. If I buy a new box to make the Zoans up to strength, I'll end up with two venoms.

Strictly speaking the most efficient solution I can see is get three boxes and make three Zoans, three Venoms and three Neuros.

Will you ever use 3 Neurothropes at once?

 Overread wrote:
Will you ever use 3 Neurothropes at once?

Hypothetically. They're certainly more useful than normal Zoans. Honestly as someone who likes the classic 3rd ed nid list, it's a bit disenhartening they won't have a real direct damage spell and will instead be relying on less efficient mortal wounds.

Either way though, it's the least leftover useless models I can see.

Tempted to just run all my Zoans as Neuros. Any downside?

Just the cost I suppose. But the Neurothrope seems pretty decent IMO. Could even run a Supreme Command detachment to get a few Kronos Neurothropes alongside a different detachment.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Just the cost I suppose. But the Neurothrope seems pretty decent IMO. Could even run a Supreme Command detachment to get a few Kronos Neurothropes alongside a different detachment.

Why run them as Kronos? Re-roll 1's to hit in shooting if you stood still does nothing for Psychic attacks. Is it Kronos that has the Psychic stratagems and Warlord trait?

 Imateria wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Just the cost I suppose. But the Neurothrope seems pretty decent IMO. Could even run a Supreme Command detachment to get a few Kronos Neurothropes alongside a different detachment.

Why run them as Kronos? Re-roll 1's to hit in shooting if you stood still does nothing for Psychic attacks. Is it Kronos that has the Psychic stratagems and Warlord trait?

Yeah, with Kronos you can make enemy psykers cast using 1 dice, or hit them with mortal wounds when they roll bad on their test.

 rollawaythestone wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Just the cost I suppose. But the Neurothrope seems pretty decent IMO. Could even run a Supreme Command detachment to get a few Kronos Neurothropes alongside a different detachment.

Why run them as Kronos? Re-roll 1's to hit in shooting if you stood still does nothing for Psychic attacks. Is it Kronos that has the Psychic stratagems and Warlord trait?

Yeah, with Kronos you can make enemy psykers cast using 1 dice, or hit them with mortal wounds when they roll bad on their test.

Yep

Whats interesting that I hadn't noticed was that you can use the Deepest Shadows stratagem with any Kronos unit - it doesn't even have to have Shadows in the Warp. So a 30 point Ripper Swarm could block Magnus from casting for 1CP.

But of course the -1 from SitW also stacks.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:


So can Venomthropes now. A unit of 3+ affect monsters too, and a unit of 6 has increased shrouding range

Yeah, kill one of three and they are down to infantry only. Kill one of six models and they are down to 3". Hilariously bad.

I really don't see why this is an issue unless you got it into your head to run a gunline for some reason. Your big bugs should be engaging on turn 2 so that's as long as they need protection for. After that the Venomthropes are useless anyway and if they're killing Venomthropes it's gun not pointed towards your other creatures.

Seriously. It's a free upgrade, by definition it can't actually be 'hilariously bad' since it is making the unit stronger for no cost in points.

Preordered the Hive Mind collection, because I'm a sucker.

I would but I feel digital is the way forward in 8th.

changemod wrote:
The biggest problem I see with Zoans and Venoms is the unit size issue mixed with neurothropes being separate.

For example I currently own a Neuro and two Zoans. If I buy a new box to make the Zoans up to strength, I'll end up with two venoms.

Strictly speaking the most efficient solution I can see is get three boxes and make three Zoans, three Venoms and three Neuros.

Most efficient for me is 2 boxes, make 6 venomthropes, 4 zoanthropes, and 2 neurothopes. Zoanthrope leftovers are almost a complete model. I just sub in a warrior chest piece and cut up tail options from the trygon kit and have those go into the tyranid scenery pieces.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:


So can Venomthropes now. A unit of 3+ affect monsters too, and a unit of 6 has increased shrouding range

Yeah, kill one of three and they are down to infantry only. Kill one of six models and they are down to 3". Hilariously bad.

I really don't see why this is an issue unless you got it into your head to run a gunline for some reason. Your big bugs should be engaging on turn 2 so that's as long as they need protection for. After that the Venomthropes are useless anyway and if they're killing Venomthropes it's gun not pointed towards your other creatures.

New Rules:
The bubble is now 6" from the beginning. Affects only infantry.
If 3 or more models, also affects monsters.
If 6 models, range goes up to 9".

Source:
Miniwargaming Codex Preview Tyranids around 21:30, or the other preview youtube video linked earlier somewhere here from StrikingScorpion82 around 59:20.

Edit:
Point costs seems to increase to 30 ppm.

 DaBraken wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:


So can Venomthropes now. A unit of 3+ affect monsters too, and a unit of 6 has increased shrouding range

Yeah, kill one of three and they are down to infantry only. Kill one of six models and they are down to 3". Hilariously bad.

I really don't see why this is an issue unless you got it into your head to run a gunline for some reason. Your big bugs should be engaging on turn 2 so that's as long as they need protection for. After that the Venomthropes are useless anyway and if they're killing Venomthropes it's gun not pointed towards your other creatures.

New Rules:
The bubble is now 6" from the beginning. Affects only infantry.
If 3 or more models, also affects monsters.
If 6 models, range goes up to 9".

Source:
Miniwargaming Codex Preview Tyranids around 21:30, or the other preview youtube video linked earlier somewhere here from StrikingScorpion82 around 59:20.

Edit:
Point costs seems to increase to 30 ppm.

So if I've worked this out properly if you deploy a unit of 4 at the full 2" apart then thats a 24"ish wide area of coverage for 120pts? I might be wrong, I'm very tired.

 Sim-Life wrote:

So if I've worked this out properly if you deploy a unit of 4 at the full 2" apart then thats a 24"ish wide area of coverage for 120pts? I might be wrong, I'm very tired.

Right. 6"+4x1,5"(bases)+3x2"(coherency)+6"=24"

 Sim-Life wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:


So can Venomthropes now. A unit of 3+ affect monsters too, and a unit of 6 has increased shrouding range

Yeah, kill one of three and they are down to infantry only. Kill one of six models and they are down to 3". Hilariously bad.

I really don't see why this is an issue unless you got it into your head to run a gunline for some reason. Your big bugs should be engaging on turn 2 so that's as long as they need protection for. After that the Venomthropes are useless anyway and if they're killing Venomthropes it's gun not pointed towards your other creatures.

So because not 100% of all lists will have a shooting base, we shouldn't have good units to protect them? Ok. Most nid players sometimes run a shooting base because it's fun to shoot things dead and win games, and nids sorely need shooty anti-tank (melee anti-tank isn't really working that well). That you can remove the -1 to hit penalty for shooting at nids by just inflicting 3 wounds to an T4 model is hilariously bad, at a cost of 90 points.

 DaBraken wrote:


New Rules:
The bubble is now 6" from the beginning. Affects only infantry.
If 3 or more models, also affects monsters.
If 6 models, range goes up to 9".

Source:
Miniwargaming Codex Preview Tyranids around 21:30, or the other preview youtube video linked earlier somewhere here from StrikingScorpion82 around 59:20.

Edit:
Point costs seems to increase to 30 ppm.

Point costs reduced to 30 ppm you mean (31 in the index after paying for Toxic Lashes).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Seriously. It's a free upgrade, by definition it can't actually be 'hilariously bad' since it is making the unit stronger for no cost in points.

It's a lateral move from useless to hilariously bad.

So is the Maleceptor better in the Codex?

Was looking at my Index last night, and just couldn’t see what the use of it is.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So is the Maleceptor better in the Codex?

Was looking at my Index last night, and just couldn’t see what the use of it is.

It’s a character and has 9 wounds, so for no reason at all really, the enemy can’t shoot at it unless it’s the nearest thing. It’s laughable if you see the model, which resembles a hive tyrant (which can be shot due to having 12 wounds) on a stick. It couldn’t be a more obvious target.

That said, the 3” aura from a malanthrope doesn’t look great compared to the 9” one you’d get from 6 venoms - who could spread around all over the place. I just have to weigh up the cost of them against just buying spore cysts for the 18 carnifexes I’m thinking of fielding

For what it’s worth I think neurothropes might be the way to go for warlords. I like the Starship Troopers idea of having a bunch of scary monsters controlled by a brain bug. They can also pick up the relic and run off with it, unlike any monster character.

Mandragola wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So is the Maleceptor better in the Codex?

Was looking at my Index last night, and just couldn’t see what the use of it is.

It’s a character and has 9 wounds, so for no reason at all really, the enemy can’t shoot at it unless it’s the nearest thing. It’s laughable if you see the model, which resembles a hive tyrant (which can be shot due to having 12 wounds) on a stick. It couldn’t be a more obvious target.

Maleceptor, not Malanthrope

The Maleceptor got a slight 12pt reduction, can use 2 powers per turn (still with the +1 psychic test bonus), and it's psychic overload ability now does 3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6. Most importantly, its invuln save increased to 4++ like a Hive Tyrant.

Something I had considered is to drop it via pod then use Metabolic Movement strat to get it in the perfect position to inflict a ton of mortal wounds. You can either cast both Smite and Psychic Scream on a single target, or use psychic overload to hit a bunch of nearby units grouped together (which can't be denied). You then have T7 4++ monster right on top of the enemy spreading Shadow in the Warp. It's a bit of a kamikaze unit, but I think it can be the new distraction carnifex.

Mandragola wrote:
That said, the 3” aura from a malanthrope doesn’t look great compared to the 9” one you’d get from 6 venoms - who could spread around all over the place. I just have to weigh up the cost of them against just buying spore cysts for the 18 carnifexes I’m thinking of fielding

6 venoms would be exactly 18x spore cyst for carnifexes, if i remember correctly. 6x30 vs 18x10.

For what it’s worth I think neurothropes might be the way to go for warlords. I like the Starship Troopers idea of having a bunch of scary monsters controlled by a brain bug. They can also pick up the relic and run off with it, unlike any monster character.

They are very good as it seems. Nasty psyker, character, synapse and cheap. Nothing else to wish for the points.

 N.I.B. wrote:

So because not 100% of all lists will have a shooting base, we shouldn't have good units to protect them? Ok. Most nid players sometimes run a shooting base because it's fun to shoot things dead and win games, and nids sorely need shooty anti-tank (melee anti-tank isn't really working that well). That you can remove the -1 to hit penalty for shooting at nids by just inflicting 3 wounds to an T4 model is hilariously bad, at a cost of 90 points.
[...]

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Seriously. It's a free upgrade, by definition it can't actually be 'hilariously bad' since it is making the unit stronger for no cost in points.

It's a lateral move from useless to hilariously bad.

The opponent still has to shoot min 3 models with T4 W3 off the board. Thats 9 wounds, they have too shoot at with -1 to hit, maybe cover, before the screen vanishes (for infantery). And if they use high damage stuff to kill them faster, even better. These would not shoot at your other big boys this turn.
The malanthrope might be considered super great, but in my opinions its kind of annoying to play too. 3" is very short, if you want to advance, and it literally does nothing else.
Until codex we had no choice to mitigate a part of the enemys shooting with other abilities. Now we have. Venoms may include monsters as long 3-6 models, spore cysts protect fexes, Hive fleet ability gives +1 armor (cover). Synapse Range is larger (IB at 24", not 12"/8" any more).
And with neurothrope we got a cheaper HQ which can even Smite and/or Psi. Malanthrope is no auto take any more, depending on playstyle of course.

 xttz wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So is the Maleceptor better in the Codex?

Was looking at my Index last night, and just couldn’t see what the use of it is.

It’s a character and has 9 wounds, so for no reason at all really, the enemy can’t shoot at it unless it’s the nearest thing. It’s laughable if you see the model, which resembles a hive tyrant (which can be shot due to having 12 wounds) on a stick. It couldn’t be a more obvious target.

Maleceptor, not Malanthrope

The Maleceptor got a slight 12pt reduction, can use 2 powers per turn (still with the +1 psychic test bonus), and it's psychic overload ability now does 3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6. Most importantly, its invuln save increased to 4++ like a Hive Tyrant.

Something I had considered is to drop it via pod then use Metabolic Movement strat to get it in the perfect position to inflict a ton of mortal wounds. You can either cast both Smite and Psychic Scream on a single target, or use psychic overload to hit a bunch of nearby units grouped together (which can't be denied). You then have T7 4++ monster right on top of the enemy spreading Shadow in the Warp. It's a bit of a kamikaze unit, but I think it can be the new distraction carnifex.

That might be enough to add it to my shopping list

 xttz wrote:
Maleceptor, not Malanthrope

The Maleceptor got a slight 12pt reduction, can use 2 powers per turn (still with the +1 psychic test bonus), and it's psychic overload ability now does 3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6. Most importantly, its invuln save increased to 4++ like a Hive Tyrant.

Something I had considered is to drop it via pod then use Metabolic Movement strat to get it in the perfect position to inflict a ton of mortal wounds. You can either cast both Smite and Psychic Scream on a single target, or use psychic overload to hit a bunch of nearby units grouped together (which can't be denied). You then have T7 4++ monster right on top of the enemy spreading Shadow in the Warp. It's a bit of a kamikaze unit, but I think it can be the new distraction carnifex.

Seems pretty good to me.
Even just running it up the table seems reasonable as target saturation. If its eating lascannons other stuff isn't.

Tyel wrote:

 xttz wrote:
Maleceptor, not Malanthrope

The Maleceptor got a slight 12pt reduction, can use 2 powers per turn (still with the +1 psychic test bonus), and it's psychic overload ability now does 3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6. Most importantly, its invuln save increased to 4++ like a Hive Tyrant.

Something I had considered is to drop it via pod then use Metabolic Movement strat to get it in the perfect position to inflict a ton of mortal wounds. You can either cast both Smite and Psychic Scream on a single target, or use psychic overload to hit a bunch of nearby units grouped together (which can't be denied). You then have T7 4++ monster right on top of the enemy spreading Shadow in the Warp. It's a bit of a kamikaze unit, but I think it can be the new distraction carnifex.

Seems pretty good to me.
Even just running it up the table seems reasonable as target saturation. If its eating lascannons other stuff isn't.

Bah. Sorry for getting my bugs mixed up.

Maleceptors could be pretty interesting. They provide near potentially a lot of mortal wounds. That said I’m not sure how often it will be better to do their nova rather than casting smite and a second power.

Mandragola wrote:
Maleceptors could be pretty interesting. They provide near potentially a lot of mortal wounds. That said I’m not sure how often it will be better to do their nova rather than casting smite and a second power.

Their nova can't be denied, because its no psychic power as such. Anyway, smite and psychic scream in combination could be more devastating, depending on the situation.