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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:
I personally love these guys and don't understand the hate.

Because people don't like how they look, which is apparently legitimate criticism of the Enforcers but I get told to shut up when I say that I don't like the new "Delaques".

So who knows...

It's totally fair to not like them because one doesn't like how they look, I guess I'm just confused by the people that are saying they don't look enough like space police/ arbites and they don't like them because of that. FW has been pretty clear from the get go that they would be Enforcers and specifically not Arbites. I could see how you wouldn't like the new Delaques if you liked the older ones, because they look nothing alike. The older ones were just bald dudes with trench coats and shades. The new ones are like cybernetically enhanced spindly creatures. Personally I love them, but I wasn't a fan of the old ones.

I see enforcers being the "law arm" of (a planets) PDF - and in the universe of 40k, is there really a reason why they wouldn't be equipped as a military regiment?

I mean, I do get it to a point- these guys don't look like the Arbites, and that's what alot of people were wanting (myself included).

BUT the whole argument of looking "wrong" seems silly to me - the silly looking figures are cadians and catachans; these guys look very much at home on a necromunda that also produces gear fit for the van saar, and hunting rigs for spyrers.

Taken in a vaccum without the burdern of expectatons, they look amazing. I'm not a huge fan of the helmets, BUT with a little green stuff on the helmet mask vents will turn them into looking very medieval (and probably perfect for the foot soldiers who accompany knights and thier pilots)

Adeptus Arbites= police force for the Hive in general. Enforces the will of the Imperium as it pertains to the populace of the Hive.

Enforcers="police" force only working for the interests of the Noble House that they are in the employ of. Does whatever their bosses tell them to. They are like if a local government hired Private Military Contractors to enforce the politicians personal interests (especially the shady stuff), while the local police force (the Arbites) performed their usual public service dealing with general crimes and unrest.

The real mistake is attaching the word "police" to Enforcers. They are extremely well equipped private military thugs, separate from the PDF or the Guard.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well, for one thing, phrasing it as "Arbites/Enforcers" basically misses the point. Arbites =/= Enforcers. One protects Imperial Law, and would never descend into the Underhive unless there was a very serious reason. Enforcers enforce the local law of the Great Houses/whomever is paying them the most.

Well see, I was going on the idea these models are arbites, just a different name.
Sorry to rub you the wrong way.

 ProtoClone wrote:
Well see, I was going on the idea these models are arbites, just a different name.

Except that they're not. Were you not aware of that?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:
Well see, I was going on the idea these models are arbites, just a different name.

Except that they're not. Were you not aware of that?

I guess not. I am not familiar enough with their distinction to have known that.
So now that you have, I realize I wrote a dumb.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Adeptus Arbites= police force for the Hive in general. Enforces the will of the Imperium as it pertains to the populace of the Hive.

Enforcers="police" force only working for the interests of the Noble House that they are in the employ of. Does whatever their bosses tell them to. They are like if a local government hired Private Military Contractors to enforce the politicians personal interests (especially the shady stuff), while the local police force (the Arbites) performed their usual public service dealing with general crimes and unrest.

The real mistake is attaching the word "police" to Enforcers. They are extremely well equipped private military thugs, separate from the PDF or the Guard.

I don't think Arbiters deal with everyday crimes.

They are too high for that. They are the Polices of the Imperium in dealing with unrest... in goverment, and high echelons of society, and all of that. Theres no civilian movement that could spark any kind of problem for the Imperium as a whole. If a planet falls in anarchy and chaos, as long as the new goverment keeps paying their tithes to the Imperium then all is fine.

 Galas wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Adeptus Arbites= police force for the Hive in general. Enforces the will of the Imperium as it pertains to the populace of the Hive.

Enforcers="police" force only working for the interests of the Noble House that they are in the employ of. Does whatever their bosses tell them to. They are like if a local government hired Private Military Contractors to enforce the politicians personal interests (especially the shady stuff), while the local police force (the Arbites) performed their usual public service dealing with general crimes and unrest.

The real mistake is attaching the word "police" to Enforcers. They are extremely well equipped private military thugs, separate from the PDF or the Guard.

I don't think Arbiters deal with everyday crimes.

They are too high for that. They are the Polices of the Imperium in dealing with unrest... in goverment, and high echelons of society, and all of that. Theres no civilian movement that could spark any kind of problem for the Imperium as a whole. If a planet falls in anarchy and chaos, as long as the new goverment keeps paying their tithes to the Imperium then all is fine.

The Adeptus Arbites enforce Imperial justice on worlds, even judging and killing the lord on the planet if he is not following imperial rule. They are brought from off-world and serve on planets where they have no ties, no family and no financial concern. They are terrible swift justice.

The enforcers are a straight up goon squad that are either distant relatives to house Hemwar, or gangers that worked for the house while it was taking control of hive Primas. They enforce Lord Hemwar’s will upon the citizens of Hive Primus.

Book of Peril seems interesting on a skim through. It really is a hardback as well.

Nice to see a lot of old items coming back - Second Best, Mung Vase, Archeotech, etc.

Plus: Plasma Grenades!!!

Tempestus Scions perhaps are more the inspiration?

One concept I've not seen in this discussion...

Love or hate the design, wouldn't STCs make things like common design elements between disparate parts of the Imperium much more likely?

Actually? Depends on what you mean by common design elements. A fully operational STC was supposed to be able to account for local material availability and the crafter’s skill level and specifications to come up with a design on the fly. That’s why working STCs are the holy grail of the Adeptus Mechanicus; they were much much more than a big ol’ database of pre-designed blueprints. The deluxe models even included factory modules to build prototypes or one-offs. Unfortunately all they have ever found are broken mechanisms, and damaged copies of copies of copies of printed blueprints or the equivalent record on something like a USB drive generated by an STC.

So if Joe-Bob the Tanith tree herder wants a critter gun but all he’s got is an old spade, a big hammer, all the nal-wood he can eat and lots of enthusiasm, he’s going to get a very different design to Aroon al-Janeth the Tallarn master smith with a full workshop, years of experience and whatever materials he wants (this being pre-Heresy Tallarn).

Of course the systems probably did have a specific set of components like power and data interfaces that would be reused over and over but aesthetically they could be very different.

Whilst I would have liked to see the Mund Vase effects tied into the new historical context of (the former) House Mung, I do like the selection of classic elements brought back in the Book of Perils.

But the scenery special rules and effects - couldn't have asked for better. Exactly the sort of depth and detail I hoped might eventually come and worthy of the admission price alone.

Love the new ammo types - but still think reclaimed wepsonry and gunk ammo should have range penalties imposed.

Fun fact, the Book of Peril is now out of stock(!) on GW UK. If true, it seems they're still underestimating demand

 zedmeister wrote:
Fun fact, the Book of Peril is now out of stock(!) on GW UK. If true, it seems they're still underestimating demand

Out of stock on World wide store as well.

That's good news.

Glad I spent a couple of hours traipsing round Edinburgh to bag a copy!

It’s really pretty cool. Allying with Guilds brings boons, but also quite significant drawbacks. And such alliances are nearly always temporary!

 Sabotage! wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:
I personally love these guys and don't understand the hate.

Because people don't like how they look, which is apparently legitimate criticism of the Enforcers but I get told to shut up when I say that I don't like the new "Delaques".

So who knows...

It's totally fair to not like them because one doesn't like how they look, I guess I'm just confused by the people that are saying they don't look enough like space police/ arbites and they don't like them because of that. FW has been pretty clear from the get go that they would be Enforcers and specifically not Arbites. I could see how you wouldn't like the new Delaques if you liked the older ones, because they look nothing alike. The older ones were just bald dudes with trench coats and shades. The new ones are like cybernetically enhanced spindly creatures. Personally I love them, but I wasn't a fan of the old ones.

The issue is you're mixing up several distinct reasons people aren't into them.

Some people dislike the fact they don't look like Arbites, because the Fanatic-era models for Enforcers looked like Arbites. These are the folk who're equivalent to HBMCs "Delaque don't look exactly the same, so I don't like them" stance.

Some people dislike the fact they look more cyberpunk/animoo than grim-gothic.

Some people dislike the fact there's not much about them that says "space police". And they are meant to be that - Enforcers are the personal thugs of Helmawr, yes, but in the same sense that the police in a corrupt regime are the personal thugs of the corrupt leader. Enforcers certainly do the bidding of Helmawr when he decides a settlement has gotten too big for its boots, or a gang is disrupting the flow of wealth to the Spire, or a rival's Underhive enterprise needs to be undermined, but they also man The Wall, patrol and keep order in Hive City, even in the new rules descend down into the Underhive and keep Helmawr's order in the bigger settlements there.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Adeptus Arbites= police force for the Hive in general. Enforces the will of the Imperium as it pertains to the populace of the Hive.

Enforcers="police" force only working for the interests of the Noble House that they are in the employ of. Does whatever their bosses tell them to. They are like if a local government hired Private Military Contractors to enforce the politicians personal interests (especially the shady stuff), while the local police force (the Arbites) performed their usual public service dealing with general crimes and unrest.

The real mistake is attaching the word "police" to Enforcers. They are extremely well equipped private military thugs, separate from the PDF or the Guard.

I disagree. The Arbites aren't the Hive's police at all, they only care about enforcing Imperial law, which 99 times out of 100 involves the ruling elite not the plebs of the hive. Other than the occasional officer going around checking compliance with psyker purges and mutant registration, the Arbites would have nothing to do with the running of the hive or its citizenry. Meanwhile, the Enforcers aren't so much a PMC as they are more along the lines of a city watch - they're law enforcers first & foremost, but since the highest law is "whatever the feudal lord says it is", they're also said lord's personal thugs. If a citizen commits almost any "normal" crime, it would be an Enforcer who shows up to deal with it. It's Enforcers who keep order among the worker populace of Hive City. It's Enforcers who man the checkpoints.

So they are more kind of like one of those Private Security Companies from Shadowrun, like Knight Errant or Lone Star than a police force?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they are more kind of like one of those Private Security Companies from Shadowrun, like Knight Errant or Lone Star than a police force?

No, Adeptus Arbites are imperial agents who have no ties or loyalty to anyone on the planet. If they find out the imperial governor is dealing illegally with aliens, mutants or renegades they will kick down the governors front door and drag his butt outside or in front of imperial courts (probably on another planet) fighting even the PDF to get the job done.

The enforcers are the governors guard (so yes a private security company) who are working under the governors authority to deal with issues he wants resolved. They are better equipped and probably have a good lawyer, but if caught with their hand in the cookie jar they will be disavowed in a heart beat. To a space marine or any off planet authority these guys are no better than gangers with a famous friend.

Enforcer are basically house Helmawr's gang.

 Theophony wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they are more kind of like one of those Private Security Companies from Shadowrun, like Knight Errant or Lone Star than a police force?

No, Adeptus Arbites are imperial agents who have no ties or loyalty to anyone on the planet. If they find out the imperial governor is dealing illegally with aliens, mutants or renegades they will kick down the governors front door and drag his butt outside or in front of imperial courts (probably on another planet) fighting even the PDF to get the job done.

The enforcers are the governors guard (so yes a private security company) who are working under the governors authority to deal with issues he wants resolved. They are better equipped and probably have a good lawyer, but if caught with their hand in the cookie jar they will be disavowed in a heart beat. To a space marine or any off planet authority these guys are no better than gangers with a famous friend.

Yeah, I was talking about Enforcers. I always thought Arbites to be more like the FBI or the KGB.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:
I personally love these guys and don't understand the hate.

Because people don't like how they look, which is apparently legitimate criticism of the Enforcers but I get told to shut up when I say that I don't like the new "Delaques".

So who knows...

It's totally fair to not like them because one doesn't like how they look, I guess I'm just confused by the people that are saying they don't look enough like space police/ arbites and they don't like them because of that. FW has been pretty clear from the get go that they would be Enforcers and specifically not Arbites. I could see how you wouldn't like the new Delaques if you liked the older ones, because they look nothing alike. The older ones were just bald dudes with trench coats and shades. The new ones are like cybernetically enhanced spindly creatures. Personally I love them, but I wasn't a fan of the old ones.

The issue is you're mixing up several distinct reasons people aren't into them.

Some people dislike the fact they don't look like Arbites, because the Fanatic-era models for Enforcers looked like Arbites. These are the folk who're equivalent to HBMCs "Delaque don't look exactly the same, so I don't like them" stance.

Some people dislike the fact they look more cyberpunk/animoo than grim-gothic.

Some people dislike the fact there's not much about them that says "space police". And they are meant to be that - Enforcers are the personal thugs of Helmawr, yes, but in the same sense that the police in a corrupt regime are the personal thugs of the corrupt leader. Enforcers certainly do the bidding of Helmawr when he decides a settlement has gotten too big for its boots, or a gang is disrupting the flow of wealth to the Spire, or a rival's Underhive enterprise needs to be undermined, but they also man The Wall, patrol and keep order in Hive City, even in the new rules descend down into the Underhive and keep Helmawr's order in the bigger settlements there.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Adeptus Arbites= police force for the Hive in general. Enforces the will of the Imperium as it pertains to the populace of the Hive.

Enforcers="police" force only working for the interests of the Noble House that they are in the employ of. Does whatever their bosses tell them to. They are like if a local government hired Private Military Contractors to enforce the politicians personal interests (especially the shady stuff), while the local police force (the Arbites) performed their usual public service dealing with general crimes and unrest.

The real mistake is attaching the word "police" to Enforcers. They are extremely well equipped private military thugs, separate from the PDF or the Guard.

I disagree. The Arbites aren't the Hive's police at all, they only care about enforcing Imperial law, which 99 times out of 100 involves the ruling elite not the plebs of the hive. Other than the occasional officer going around checking compliance with psyker purges and mutant registration, the Arbites would have nothing to do with the running of the hive or its citizenry. Meanwhile, the Enforcers aren't so much a PMC as they are more along the lines of a city watch - they're law enforcers first & foremost, but since the highest law is "whatever the feudal lord says it is", they're also said lord's personal thugs. If a citizen commits almost any "normal" crime, it would be an Enforcer who shows up to deal with it. It's Enforcers who keep order among the worker populace of Hive City. It's Enforcers who man the checkpoints.

Exactly this. I think calling me a hater is rather strong. I'm just not a fan of the aesthetic and think they missed the mark. Made them look too cyberpunk/animoo. I feel like they have the look of private thugs rather than law enforcement. Helmawr is ultimately the legal and rightful ruler of the planet. He may be a complete bastard, but legally so.

The Arbites should have a different feeling. The way I see it is Arbites are fedral law enforcement and Enforcers are local. Like FBI vs City police, many similarities, but also many differences.

They look great. The helmets are a bit primarisy though. If I ever do Scouts or Chapter Serfs (IG) for my primaris marines, I'll be using those helmets.

I think Skitarii helmets would be a good way to get more Arbites look, if that's what people want. Skitarii helmets are also pretty easy to convert to to a non respirator configuration, if you have spare bare heads. The bottom of the visor is a straight line, so it is easy to cut. That would give you the classic Judge Dredd look.

The Infinity/animuness is mostly the paintjob. With more muted dirty colours and some weathering they're fine.

 Crimson wrote:
They look great. The helmets are a bit primarisy though. If I ever do Scouts or Chapter Serfs (IG) for my primaris marines, I'll be using those helmets.

I think Skitarii helmets would be a good way to get more Arbites look, if that's what people want. Skitarii helmets are also pretty easy to convert to to a non respirator configuration, if you have spare bare heads. The bottom of the visor is a straight line, so it is easy to cut. That would give you the classic Judge Dredd look.

The Infinity/animuness is mostly the paintjob. With more muted dirty colours and some weathering they're fine.

This isn't so much directed at just you in particular, but i'm curious why people think they look great as Enforcers. Not to imply they're bad models, they're definitely high quality and awesome looking in themselves, but I don't quite see what makes them good as what they're meant to be (Brutal Grimdark Law enforcement & Hive guards) compared to just quite generic sci-fi soldiers. When so many are saying things like "They'd make good Primaris Scouts" or "Iron Warrior Cultists" or "Tempestus scions" those really aren't along the same sort of lines as the feel i think Enforcers should give. Obviously people are allowed to like them and I do too, just not so much as Enforcers.

I like the because they're plain (don't want to upstage the boss, their employer may be decked out in all his baroque finery and will look even more impressive with these plain uniformed lot in the background)

Looking really smart with no wear/grunge etc shows their employer has enough money and power to keep them that way

I think of the enforcers as a surgical strike squad employed to remove problems permenantly and fast and I think they fit really well for that

I don't expect them (well these elite ones anyway) to be involved in putting down riots, dragging suspects in for questioning etc, think firearms officers/SWAT as opposed to regular police who proabably have less armour, no rebreathers, shock sticks, riot shields etc

I certainly don't think these represent a run of the mill hive police officer and if that's what you want them for I'd agree they're not going to fit

Whole thing wouldn't be so bad if GW already had a plastic Arbites kit that people who prefer Enforcers in knockoff Arbites uniforms could use in place of generic sci-fi soldiers, 2019 edition. Everyone could just use the kit they prefer.

 Geifer wrote:
Whole thing wouldn't be so bad if GW already had a plastic Arbites kit that people who prefer Enforcers in knockoff Arbites uniforms could use in place of generic sci-fi soldiers, 2019 edition. Everyone could just use the kit they prefer.

That seems like a weird statement. Why not just have two different versions of every kit, so people who don't like one can just use the other?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


This isn't so much directed at just you in particular, but i'm curious why people think they look great as Enforcers. Not to imply they're bad models, they're definitely high quality and awesome looking in themselves, but I don't quite see what makes them good as what they're meant to be (Brutal Grimdark Law enforcement & Hive guards) compared to just quite generic sci-fi soldiers. When so many are saying things like "They'd make good Primaris Scouts" or "Iron Warrior Cultists" or "Tempestus scions" those really aren't along the same sort of lines as the feel i think Enforcers should give. Obviously people are allowed to like them and I do too, just not so much as Enforcers.

What should of feel should the Enforcers have, there really isn't an established look for them. They have smoke grenades, they have handcuffs, they have riot armour. They don't even look particularly cyberpunky, the armour is pretty low tech looking, apart the helmet. I think the paintjob is really throwing the people off here.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I like the because they're plain (don't want to upstage the boss, their employer may be decked out in all his baroque finery and will look even more impressive with these plain uniformed lot in the background)

Looking really smart with no wear/grunge etc shows their employer has enough money and power to keep them that way

I think of the enforcers as a surgical strike squad employed to remove problems permenantly and fast and I think they fit really well for that

I don't expect them (well these elite ones anyway) to be involved in putting down riots, dragging suspects in for questioning etc, think firearms officers/SWAT as opposed to regular police who proabably have less armour, no rebreathers, shock sticks, riot shields etc

I certainly don't think these represent a run of the mill hive police officer and if that's what you want them for I'd agree they're not going to fit

These models are the basic hive law-enforcement though. They aren't the equivalent of a SWAT team or an elite squad something like that, these are just basic enforcers with their typical gear in the same way all the other Necromunda models are a common example of whichever house they belong to.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Whole thing wouldn't be so bad if GW already had a plastic Arbites kit that people who prefer Enforcers in knockoff Arbites uniforms could use in place of generic sci-fi soldiers, 2019 edition. Everyone could just use the kit they prefer.

That seems like a weird statement. Why not just have two different versions of every kit, so people who don't like one can just use the other?

We had Enforcers. They looked like knockoff Arbites. No matter the story behind that decision, until a couple of days ago that was the established look of Enforcers for Necromunda and it's reasonable for people who liked and bought into the idea to see it continued.

GW, obviously, had other plans. But unlike for instance 3rd ed Stormtroopers that were entirely replaced with Tempestus Scions, even though old Enforcers now got replaced by new Enforcers in much the same way the Adeptus Arbites from whom they derived their look still exists as a separate entity. And if there was a kit, it would be easy to preserve the old look of Enforcers, if you so chose. All it would require is for GW to make a kit. Not necessarily even for Necromunda. It's not even unreasonable to ask for that. We have Rogue Trader models. We have Genestealer Cults. Arbites can wage war on the same scale and there's no excuse why we don't have models for them. But since we're talking about GW and much the same could be said about the Inquisition...