Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!

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**Leo_the_Rat**

For me I don't think he's worth my swapping out. I'm paying 7 points more but I'm only losing the 5++ vs having 2 flamers. The psyker abilities don't really appeal to me and I'd rather use heavy slots over elite ones.

**Mmmpi**

It's an HQ choice. So if you're running wraithlords, you can swap to a SC detachment and get a command point and a few deny the witch attempts.

**Argive**

Shadenuat wrote:
You need something like 5 vibros to actually make their rule worth it.

JNAProductions wrote:
Also, is there a general tactics summary in this thread anywhere?

https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/eldar-battle.png

Where exactly is 5 coming from? Seems rather arbitrary.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartacus wrote:
I love me some D-Scythe wraithguard.

I have a list with 16 of them in Waveserpents. Its like an overload of tank type targets, because you really need to hit Wraithguard with antitank guns if you wanna take them out quickly.

The wraithcannons don't really interest me as it makes them so one-dimensional. The D-scythes only do a little bit worse vs vehicles and such, but obviously far better against smaller targets. When using the cannons I found they tended to get swarmed by infantry if my opponent couldn't shoot them to death, and even though you can fall back and still shoot, the screen is usually enough to block off my ability to get at the bigger targets they actually want to shoot.

The Dscythes have no such issue. If someone wants to charge them, they first have to eat some of the nastiest overwatch in the game, usually enough to pretty much wipe a squad of Guardsmen or Firewarriors for example. Much more difficult to put away and block because they're also more mobile, you can always advance and fire without any penalty, which mitigates the shorter range. More expensive of course, but I'd rather pay more points and do something than take the cannons and do nothing, I tried and just couldn't make them work.

What really makes it work IMO, whatever type you take, is that you have notoriously tough Wave Serpents full of powerful offensive units. Your opponent has to decide between waiting until they bail out and eating a round of nasty shooting at point blank, or committing to taking out the wave serpents before they get close which is super hard and pretty much a waste of their firepower in most instances. I find I win nearly every game when my opponent tries killing multiple wave serpents instead of my other stuff.

Wraithblades don't really interest me, but I see a lot of people doing great things with them using the wraith-host detachment.

Ok im glad it works for you but I have to disagree.

I took them against tau and they couldint reliably kill stealth suits or blob of fire warriors... Not enough shots to clear a horde and not enough dmg to kill elite infasntry. Also sure why anyone would charge them.
Wraith cannons D6 damage at least means they can take down elite infantry and tanks. For the points they cost are way too weak in my opinion.

**Cpt. Icanus**

The issue with wraithcannons is: by the time you factor in the to hit roll the damage mostly equals out, scythes never overkill and have a greater effective threat range when advancing full 6". The only niche where wraithcannons are objectively/ statistically better is deepstrike from webway to delete a large threat and if you're hurt for 15 pts. Otherwise scythes are superior against most targets.
That said i use my scythe guard a lot and they are hit and miss real bad. And i will never again field them without a serpent

**Leo_the_Rat**

I don't see overkill as a problem. Underkill on the other hand is a problem.

**Argive**

Im going to run axes instead of blades next game to change it up and see how they do. Im liking the D3 damage. will need enhance tho for sure

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Run the 2 vibro cannons. Mixed bag not sure how I feel about them yet . Stopped pox walkers advancing which arguably won me the game, but not sure about their performance apart from that. So will play them again. I think once I get a third one it will be atrue test.

**bullyboy**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For me I don't think he's worth my swapping out. I'm paying 7 points more but I'm only losing the 5++ vs having 2 flamers. The psyker abilities don't really appeal to me and I'd rather use heavy slots over elite ones.

It's not just a difference of a 5++, the wraithseer has 2 more wounds, reroll wounds of 1 vs vehicles in assault, it has a decent psychic power that helps your other wraith units charge or gives a 6+++.

With those benefits, it costs 100pts vs 95pts of the wraithlord with sword.

**Azuza001**

I personally don't like the sword. I always find i end up using the fists instead in cc. Flat 3 dmg at str 7 ap-3 just seems better than str 9 ap-4 d6 dmg when you consider most things that end up in cc either planned on being in cc so have an invunerable save making the -3ap vs -4ap moot or are going to get completly wrecked with either weapon. But flat 3 is reliable, i will always take a garunteed 3 dmg over d6, sure you have a 50% chance of doing more dmg than 3 but you have a 33.3% chance of not and to me i will save my 10 pts and put them towards flamers or a bright lance or something instead.

**grouchoben**

The difference in S is what you're primarily paying for, and it's a really big one. S9 is the gold standard.

Against the common T8 3+ profile (Knights, Russes, Wlords themselves, etc) fists do 2.2 damage on average. Sword does 6.2, so yeah, three times as effective against tanks profiles.

Also unlocks 2s to wound on most infantry. But there are niche cases where fists are best - against things like custodes the fist profile is perfect.

**Argive**

Azuza001 wrote:
I personally don't like the sword. I always find i end up using the fists instead in cc. Flat 3 dmg at str 7 ap-3 just seems better than str 9 ap-4 d6 dmg when you consider most things that end up in cc either planned on being in cc so have an invunerable save making the -3ap vs -4ap moot or are going to get completly wrecked with either weapon. But flat 3 is reliable, i will always take a garunteed 3 dmg over d6, sure you have a 50% chance of doing more dmg than 3 but you have a 33.3% chance of not and to me i will save my 10 pts and put them towards flamers or a bright lance or something instead.

I like the sword for the option of being able to wound things with T7+.
Last game wraithlord was rampaging through bligh haulers dicing them up with a sword. It was glorious. Plus it looks effin cool!

**Cpt. Icanus**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't see overkill as a problem. Underkill on the other hand is a problem.

Shoot a squad of hellblasters with 5 Wraithguard. You'll get 3 or 4 hits with the cannons and around ten with the scythes. Talk about underkill when your d6 damage weapons fail to kill a primaris in one go. And, let's face it, primaris are far from the scariest thing out there. You take your cannons vs underkill, i'll prefer the reliability of d-scythes anyday.

**Leo_the_Rat**

The thing is, I'm not hunting Primaris with my wraithguard. I'm hunting heavy vehicles and titanic units. Things with 10+ Wds and T8. I also use a unit of 10.

Let's put this on my playground and say we're facing a Castellan: My unit hits on a 3 and rerolls 1's (because I can afford the 65 point spirit seer due to less base cost). I'm going to hit 10*.66 + 3.4*.66 = 8.84 times I wound .66 = 5.84 vs 4++ = 2.92 * 3.5 = 10.22 total damage
Your unit will hit 20 times and wound 13.2 vs 4++=6.6 total damage.
Is the Castellan down from either of these attacks? No, but, I'm a lot closer to finishing it than you are. I'm also more survivable due to the fact that I can have either cover or protect on my unit and you have to pay extra for that advantage.

**JNAProductions**

It's 7/9 hits for 3+ RR1s, not 8/9.
So that's 7.78 hits, 5.19 wounds, 2.59 unsaved, 9.07 damage.

Also, you rounded down on the D-Scythes when you really should've rounded up. 6.67 is the average-still considerably less, but do your math right.

**Leo_the_Rat**

sorry and thank you for the corrections.

**JNAProductions**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
sorry and thank you for the corrections.

Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.

**Karhedron**

JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.

Not vastly better, only slightly better due to the fact that Scythes auto-hit. Against large targets, D-Cannons are 17% more effective. Against infantry, Scythes are 100% more effective than cannons.

Given that Scythes are only slightly worse than Cannons against large targets, much better against infantry, better if you want to Advance and far better at overwatch, I prefer Scythes.

**JNAProductions**

First crack at a list, found here.

**Argive**

Karhedron wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.

Not vastly better, only slightly better due to the fact that Scythes auto-hit. Against large targets, D-Cannons are 17% more effective. Against infantry, Scythes are 100% more effective than cannons.

Given that Scythes are only slightly worse than Cannons against large targets, much better against infantry, better if you want to Advance and far better at overwatch, I prefer Scythes.

Not against multiwound targets imo. Against single wound targets scythes arent too bad but duno why youd want to bother burning 60pts of chaff with a 215 point unit churing out -4 ap shots....

Dscythes should be d3 dmg.

**JNAProductions**

Argive wrote:
Karhedron wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.

Not vastly better, only slightly better due to the fact that Scythes auto-hit. Against large targets, D-Cannons are 17% more effective. Against infantry, Scythes are 100% more effective than cannons.

Given that Scythes are only slightly worse than Cannons against large targets, much better against infantry, better if you want to Advance and far better at overwatch, I prefer Scythes.

Not against multiwound targets imo. Against single wound targets scythes arent too bad but duno why youd want to bother burning 60pts of chaff with a 215 point unit churing out -4 ap shots....

Dscythes should be d3 dmg.

That'd make them pretty much 100% better than the Cannons.

Which, considering they're more expensive... Might be okay.

**Spartacus**

Argive wrote:
Karhedron wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.

Not vastly better, only slightly better due to the fact that Scythes auto-hit. Against large targets, D-Cannons are 17% more effective. Against infantry, Scythes are 100% more effective than cannons.

Given that Scythes are only slightly worse than Cannons against large targets, much better against infantry, better if you want to Advance and far better at overwatch, I prefer Scythes.

Not against multiwound targets imo. Against single wound targets scythes arent too bad but duno why youd want to bother burning 60pts of chaff with a 215 point unit churing out -4 ap shots....

Dscythes should be d3 dmg.

Sometimes that's all they'll have to shoot. If your opponent has a castellan they are sure as heck gonna have a screen for it. All that math showing how the cannons are 17 percent more effective vs tanks is nice, but in practice no decent player is going to let your 10 Wraiths within 12 inches of his Knight for a couple of turns at least. It's an issue with any short range antitank this edition.

As I briefly mentioned earlier, my experience with Cannons Wraithguard is that they.just get bogged down and achieve nothing all game. They'll get screened out of range of targets that they want to shoot and their 5 inch move won't let them get around whatever's blocking them. Your opponent just ignores them once he figures this out. Scythes on the other hand are good against whatever is thrown against them, so they will have to be dealt with at some point. And they cant easily be smothered with chaff thanks to assualt.

At the end of the day, neither variety of Wraithguard is gonna be the most optimal choice for a CWE army if we're talking about cut-throat competitiveness, but my list with 16 scythes works because its a skew list, rather than the effectiveness of the Wraithguard. All those Wraithguard plus 6 tanks to deal with taxes the antitank of most armies, and along with with Alaitoc or Ulthwe your durability wins you the battle of attrition.

**Leo_the_Rat**

While I agree with your sentiment I think you are being a little too simplistic. No one should be wasting an anti-tank unit on chaff that's why you have anti-chaff units to supplement them. In our (Eldar) repertoire we have Avengers and Guardians. While the wraithguard only have a 5" move we have quicken that lets them move 10" and still attack with no penalty to hit (with a 12" range I think you should be able to get within range to shoot at a large target). If your opponent is screening 12" in front of his big guys either he's way into your territory or his big guy is way out of the action.

In my army I have 1 unit of 10 guard. I usually have protect and cover on it and I use Ulthwe as a Craftworld. When I want to be exceptionally mean I put Fortune on the unit as well to bump up that feel no pain effect.

I don't think that you can talk about units in a vacuum. That is if I use unit A then he will counter with unit Z. You have to have a general role for every unit in your army and be prepared to make things up on the fly if you can't have them do what you expected them to do. No tanks then go for his heavy Wd units, that sort of thing.

**Spartacus**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

I don't think that you can talk about units in a vacuum. That is if I use unit A then he will counter with unit Z. You have to have a general role for every unit in your army and be prepared to make things up on the fly if you can't have them do what you expected them to do. No tanks then go for his heavy Wd units, that sort of thing.

But thats exactly my point, Cannon WGuard are not versatile and do poorly compared to Scythes when not shooting at their preferred target type. Against anything other than big tanks Dscythe guard are superior in damage, while also being more mobile, immune to enemy hit modifiers and more resistant to being charged. I feel like all the arguments for Cannon Guard are doing exactly that, describing a scenario in a vacuum where they're just expected to be able to deal damage directly to high value targets, in spite of all the significant challenges you now face by losing the autohitting multi-shot guns. If you pour all those psychic buffs onto a unit of scythe guard you're also going to get better results, so thats not really a vaild point when comparing the 2.

Castellans, Basilisks and Leman russes can sit in the back corner and still be in the fight just fine also. When you have to cut through 80 guardsmen before you can get to them, it helps when your Wraithguard can contribute to what your shuriken guns are doing.

**Leo_the_Rat**

I don't know about their lack of versitality. I played against a necron player and rather than shooting at his heavy vehicles I wiped out his 8 bikers and then a unit of 5 destroyers. I think versatility is more the domain of the player rather than the unit.

To be fair your experiences are obviously different than mine. I don't think that you're wrong I just think that wraithcannons have a nice place in an army as well.

I think that we can both agree that the wraithguard platform is very nice. It's what we put on it that makes it really interesting to me.

**Spartacus**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't know about their lack of versitality. I played against a necron player and rather than shooting at his heavy vehicles I wiped out his 8 bikers and then a unit of 5 destroyers. I think versatility is more the domain of the player rather than the unit.

To be fair your experiences are obviously different than mine. I don't think that you're wrong I just think that wraithcannons have a nice place in an army as well.

I think that we can both agree that the wraithguard platform is very nice. It's what we put on it that makes it really interesting to me.

Yeah I can definitely agree there. You do pay a a lot extra for the D-Scythe, when in fact its the wraithguard themselves which are the real strength of the unit. When your infantry have the defensive statline of a light vehicle its a fantastic platform to build on.

Hopefully most players have the opportunity to try both and pick whatever suits their list and meta. (protip: cut the end of the gun 'barrels' and drill a wire into each one, then drill a hole into the end of the pieces, and coat the wire in gloss varnish to make it a bit sticky. You can then swap just the gun barrels out to represent each gun as you please, without having to mess around with magnets)

**Argive**

Ultimately blades are better than eithet :p

**Spartacus**

Argive wrote:
Ultimately blades are better than eithet :p

Only in a deathstar where you can buff the heck out of them.

And if we're talking deathstars, Shining Spears are better than Wraithblades.

**Argive**

Spartacus wrote:
Argive wrote:
Ultimately blades are better than eithet :p

Only in a deathstar where you can buff the heck out of them.

And if we're talking deathstars, Shining Spears are better than Wraithblades.

I compared blades to guards saying they are more efficient, and you compare blades to spears ? Ok....I see.

Anyway, they are not really buff intensive IMO. I find a good way to run them is alitoic, a small unit out of a wave serpent, with enhance psychic power from a spirit seer who will also provide re-roll 1 so you don't even need an autarch and supreme disdain for 1 CP if you got it spare. I don't even bother with protect.

I tried a bone singer in this outfit for either heal or extra normal smite which was fun (will use again when singer is re-assembled and painted after stripping.). This potentially offers 3 d3 MW (from shield and 2x smites) as well as a charge.

Ona different note, I found my army is lacking a bit of AT. Obviously crimson hunters/hemlocks are the top dog when it comes to AT but what do people like to use? My unit of 5 reapers with a tempest launcher seemed a bit underwhelming. I was up against malefic blighthaulers and those things are scary tough...

**Karhedron**

Argive wrote:
Ona different note, I found my army is lacking a bit of AT. Obviously crimson hunters/hemlocks are the top dog when it comes to AT but what do people like to use? My unit of 5 reapers with a tempest launcher seemed a bit underwhelming. I was up against malefic blighthaulers and those things are scary tough...

Removing Death Guard daemon engines is like trying to get curry sauce off a white table clothe. Not impossible but you need the right tools and it will take a while.

Actually, Reapers are one of the most efficient things to take down Blight Haulers. S8 Vs T7 means you are wounding on a 3+, the AP-2 is exactly the right amount to avoid them getting any mileage from their invulnerable saves. Trouble is that they get their 5++ and a 5+++. It is not that Reapers are bad against them, they are just insanely tough against anything that doesn't spam Mortal Wounds.

In general I start my anti-tank with a squad of 5 Reapers and a pair of Fire Prisms (Linked Fire is great). I usually have some back-up sources of AT such as an Autarch on Jetbikes with laser lance and sometimes a pair of Wraithlords who can shoot decently well and chop things up with swords if necessary.

There is not much in the game that will delete DG Daemon Engines quickly, that is pretty much their raison d'etre. Volacno weapons, MWs and Captain smash can chew through them but not much else. Try to kill one asap as this will rob them of their Tri-Lobed rule which degrades their offense a fair bit. Just keep plugging away but don't get distracted from other dangerous elements. It is easy to fixate on daemon engines while the DG get into range for their assorted nasty attacks or just pile Pox Walkers onto the Objectives.

**Argive**

Karhedron wrote:
Argive wrote:
Ona different note, I found my army is lacking a bit of AT. Obviously crimson hunters/hemlocks are the top dog when it comes to AT but what do people like to use? My unit of 5 reapers with a tempest launcher seemed a bit underwhelming. I was up against malefic blighthaulers and those things are scary tough...

Removing Death Guard daemon engines is like trying to get curry sauce off a white table clothe. Not impossible but you need the right tools and it will take a while.

Actually, Reapers are one of the most efficient things to take down Blight Haulers. S8 Vs T7 means you are wounding on a 3+, the AP-2 is exactly the right amount to avoid them getting any mileage from their invulnerable saves. Trouble is that they get their 5++ and a 5+++. It is not that Reapers are bad against them, they are just insanely tough against anything that doesn't spam Mortal Wounds.

In general I start my anti-tank with a squad of 5 Reapers and a pair of Fire Prisms (Linked Fire is great). I usually have some back-up sources of AT such as an Autarch on Jetbikes with laser lance and sometimes a pair of Wraithlords who can shoot decently well and chop things up with swords if necessary.

There is not much in the game that will delete DG Daemon Engines quickly, that is pretty much their raison d'etre. Volacno weapons, MWs and Captain smash can chew through them but not much else. Try to kill one asap as this will rob them of their Tri-Lobed rule which degrades their offense a fair bit. Just keep plugging away but don't get distracted from other dangerous elements. It is easy to fixate on daemon engines while the DG get into range for their assorted nasty attacks or just pile Pox Walkers onto the Objectives.

I had an extra reaper shot from my autarch but decided to be sniping sorcerer instead. Also, reapers need guide... re-reoll ones alone from autarch are not reliable, I got greedy and gave guide to another unit, lesson learned lol. My WL ate 6W on overwatch facepalm:

. so wasn't really effective in slaying a blight hauler in CC due to lowered WS but kept them tied up for the crucial turn and popped one in their combat turn finaly.

We played narrowing the search so, that was bringing them closer to me making the charge inevitable so that really helped. The vibro cannons did surprising good work on plinking off wounds. The blight haulers are really good. Hate those things! lol. Victory was only achieved by a narrow margin and Wave Serpent surviving shooting on 1 W! lol.

**Elian**

We played narrowing the search so, that was bringing them closer to me making the charge inevitable so that really helped. The vibro cannons did surprising good work on plinking off wounds. The blight haulers are really good. Hate those things! lol. Victory was only achieved by a narrow margin and Wave Serpent surviving shooting on 1 W! lol.

Vibro cannons are insane they cost so little and they can do so much, i fielded 9 the other day scary stuff!