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4+? It is because you're not using the exarch!
Hitting on 3+ rerolling one's is just more reliable

 Elian wrote:
4+? It is because you're not using the exarch!
Hitting on 3+ rerolling one's is just more reliable

Pretty sure he's talking about the Nightwing which is a 3+ BS but no POTMS equivalent. The standard CTM helps to mitigate the problem, but it requires positioning (which isnt always an option).

I'm not going to argue that the CHE and Hemlock arent exquisitely capable units, and that in direct head to head competition they bring things to the table that the Nightwing can't. Rather, that the latter is a cheaper but still quite capable option in the Flyer role.

Gotcha!
Didn't get it at first thanks

Personally i'll never switch my CHE for something like the Nightwing it doesn't seem as reliable as the others (Hemlock CHE)

Nightwing hits on 2+ against closest target and if it declared it when retracting wings.

I generally think of Nightwing as 2 Vypers which actually are good and have ton of extra abilities. (I actually own this old piece of resin junk lol)

 Shadenuat wrote:
Nightwing hits on 2+ against closest target and if it declared it when retracting wings.

I generally think of Nightwing as 2 Vypers which actually are good and have ton of extra abilities. (I actually own this old piece of resin junk lol)

To clarify -
Nightwing is BS 3+

it can get a +1 to hit, but loses it's hard to hit rules.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Nightwing hits on 2+ against closest target and if it declared it when retracting wings.

I generally think of Nightwing as 2 Vypers which actually are good and have ton of extra abilities. (I actually own this old piece of resin junk lol)

To clarify -
Nightwing is BS 3+

it can get a +1 to hit, but loses it's hard to hit rules.

Hmm Im looking at the book, I wanted to re-read the rules for these models.

So base for the nightwing is BS is 3+

CTM - Ignore -1 if firing at closest model

can pivot towards a visible model instead of 90 degrees as its first pivot move.
Then gets +1 to hit to that model but looses its hard to hit ability.

So in effect you would be hitting with twin SC and twin BLs on a 2+ at the thing you are parking wight in front of. The chances of surviing return fire is very slim IMO so Im not sure if its worth the tactic..
136pts - no options..

I like the rules for the phoenix better. It has a nice array of weapons:
Phoenix Pulse laser Hvy 2 St 9 ap - 3 flat 3 dmg
Twin SC or BL or Star Cannon
the phoenix or nightfire missle array -either heavy d6 str 6 ap-3 2dmg - Phoenix or Nightfire hvy 2d6 str 4 -1 1 dmg + special rule.

The nightfiremissle array sounds awesome. "-1 to hit for units suffering damage as aresult of this weapon".
Coupled with alitoic thats -2 to hit if you can core a wound against the unit thats pumping out most dakka. Sounds very potent. 3 of those flying around with doom... nasty.

The chasiss with the laser and missle array is 135. The heavy weapon options on top as normal. WIth star cannons tops out at 161. Cheaper than a CHE but no re-roll 1s and CTM means you ahve to think about your positioning..Think its worht it.
Id run it with Shuri Cannons probably at 155.

Out of the two the phoenix sounds way better to me. Then again I like to use vibro cannons so what do i know XD

An early chapter approved pushed the Phoenix to over 200 points, and if you replace the pulse laser its another 30-40 points for the twin starcannon or brightlance.

Also the Nightfire array is only S4. That aint doing anything.

Nightfire Missile Array: "If a unit suffers any unsaved wounds from this weapon,your opponent must subtract 1 from their hit rolls until the end of the turn."

The -1 only lasts till the end of the turn. This means it will really only work in the following assault phase. The "end of the turn" is before the next shooting phase. So, still useful, but in support of assault units, not as a defensive buff in the next shooting phase. This is why the STR 4 makes sense to me, as I think it's made to hit enemy troops so you can hit them with our assault units and take minimal return.

The Phoenix comes in at 5 points less than a Hemlock when equipped with the Phoenix Pulse Laser. Not bad, but not great. because of how good the codex flyers are already.

In my experience the Phoenix just isn't worth it when a Hemlock is just a few more.

I think there is a strong case for the Nightwing because it is inexpensive, and has some unusual rules. It's not going to reliably do damage with the bright lances, but when the CTM comes into play and on occasion they'll crank it out, but the shuriken cannon fire is reliable in it's won way.

Sterling191 wrote:An early chapter approved pushed the Phoenix to over 200 points, and if you replace the pulse laser its another 30-40 points for the twin starcannon or brightlance.

Also the Nightfire array is only S4. That aint doing anything.

Ohh yeah.. My bad, should have used battle scribe to check the points out rather than look in a book... Ohh.. Gw what ya doin to me..

I dont think its not doing nothing.. Its -1 and 2d6 so with 3 of them and doom.. Its should score at least one wound even against tough targets. However I didint notice you change the laser for heavy weaponms rather than the SCs and I mi-interpreted the nightfire rule by the looks of it... so there is that.

Gangrel767 wrote:Nightfire Missile Array: "If a unit suffers any unsaved wounds from this weapon,your opponent must subtract 1 from their hit rolls until the end of the turn."

The -1 only lasts till the end of the turn. This means it will really only work in the following assault phase. The "end of the turn" is before the next shooting phase. So, still useful, but in support of assault units, not as a defensive buff in the next shooting phase. This is why the STR 4 makes sense to me, as I think it's made to hit enemy troops so you can hit them with our assault units and take minimal return.

The Phoenix comes in at 5 points less than a Hemlock when equipped with the Phoenix Pulse Laser. Not bad, but not great. because of how good the codex flyers are already.

In my experience the Phoenix just isn't worth it when a Hemlock is just a few more.

I think there is a strong case for the Nightwing because it is inexpensive, and has some unusual rules. It's not going to reliably do damage with the bright lances, but when the CTM comes into play and on occasion they'll crank it out, but the shuriken cannon fire is reliable in it's won way.

Thats a wierd rule... Seems a bit pointless...In that case it wouldint help in Overwatch as its a 6+ regardless of modifiers isint it?(apart from DA/Tau i.e. units with specifi worded rules)

In light of these things, CHE/Hems are just so much better.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

I think there is a strong case for the Nightwing because it is inexpensive, and has some unusual rules. It's not going to reliably do damage with the bright lances, but when the CTM comes into play and on occasion they'll crank it out, but the shuriken cannon fire is reliable in it's won way.

Thats largely why I like it. Its got a reasonable capacity to hurt things, but at the same time is inexpensive enough that if it does down its not a big loss, especially since it means that firepower isnt going at other things in my army.

Not a whole lot of flash, but it gets the job done.

Yeah it's just more shuriken cannons and bright lances in the army for when you can't spend any more points to get say CH. It is a cute plane.

Thoughts on the falcon for small point games? It feels a little bit like a distraction fex as it drew quite a lot of fire power in the previous 1k points game I played.

It does bring a little bit of anti-tank and some anti-horde with the scatter laser so I was wondering if anyone else has been trying them out at all?

I tried and i love it.

Thing is like most of our units, the Falcon should have some special rules that makes it unique Imho

My friend keep saying that the fire prims and the falcon are the same but i am not keen on believe it..

He's point being that they have the same role and if the falcon has an AML.
In terms of shots it's practically the same to a prims who's shooting at strength 9...

 Elian wrote:
I tried and i love it.

Thing is like most of our units, the Falcon should have some special rules that makes it unique Imho

My friend keep saying that the fire prims and the falcon are the same but i am not keen on believe it..

He's point being that they have the same role and if the falcon has an AML.
In terms of shots it's practically the same to a prims who's shooting at strength 9...

It is quite conspicuous that it's missing a 'special rule', very un-Eldar. Earlier in this thread someone (maybe it was me lol) suggested the Falcon should have Pulsed laser discharge like the Fire Prism, for its Pulse Laser. I thought it was a good idea at the time.

Maybe 4 shots might be too much on top of the CA points decrease.

Not really unlike the prisms you don't have any linked fire stratagem.

It would be cool to leave the points like that and adding this special rule

Just allow shooting without penalty after move, like a gunboat/mixed transport with a heavy weapon should be able to. WS = more protection & capacity, Falcon = more dakka.

Another question regarding the Falcon.

What unit do you embark in it?

Personally i go with QG and Dark reapers occasionally even Rangers

I mounted a farseer and an MSU Dire Avenger squad in my last game. Didn't exactly do much as my opponent rolled hot on two D6 damage shots and stripped 11 wounds off of it turn one with his flyer.

I wouldn't mount Reapers in a falcon, they have range of most of the board anyway and all you have to do is stick them in ruins and fire and fade them for them to be effective.

Big negative is the -1 with heavy weapons, it's the sinker I think.

CTMs plus the 16" move allow for some mitigation of that problem. Position correctly, pop screening units and you can usually get the pulse laser on-target.

It's not ideal by any means, but the move speed can pay dividends. Especially if you've got camping Prisms, Spinners or Reapers as a static fire base.

Yeah i put the DE in the Falcon just for the first turn i don't have any intention of moving them! the -1 is really really bad

Fair point with CTMs, I hadn't though of that one. I reckon I'll bring it in my next game and see how I get on with it as the game I will be playing is 2000 points rather than 1000.

The previous large points game was 1850pts versus Dark Eldar and I struggled a lot with target saturation. I ran a list of 3 Fire Prisms, 3 Wave Serpents, 20 Guardians and 2x 5 Dire Avengers, farseer, spiritseer, jetbike autarch, 3 war walkers and a dark reaper squad. I ran a spearhead and a battalion, both as Alaitoc but I probably should have run the battalion as Biel Tan instead. I realise I don't have a lot of info to give but what are the thoughts on dealing with raider and venom spam?

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Fair point with CTMs, I hadn't though of that one. I reckon I'll bring it in my next game and see how I get on with it as the game I will be playing is 2000 points rather than 1000.

The previous large points game was 1850pts versus Dark Eldar and I struggled a lot with target saturation. I ran a list of 3 Fire Prisms, 3 Wave Serpents, 20 Guardians and 2x 5 Dire Avengers, farseer, spiritseer, jetbike autarch, 3 war walkers and a dark reaper squad. I ran a spearhead and a battalion, both as Alaitoc but I probably should have run the battalion as Biel Tan instead. I realise I don't have a lot of info to give but what are the thoughts on dealing with raider and venom spam?

My preferred configuration for the Falcon is CTM + Starcannon. Clocks in at 130 points, and has four relatively nasty multidamage shots at a respectable range. They're actually pretty ideal for popping Raiders as the S6 on the Starcannon mauls T5. Keep a wing/bike-tarch in range and you'll have decent accuracy on the bounce.

Anything with high volume of fire are great for shredding Venoms. Guide / Autarch bubble / Biel Tan on a Spinner would work pretty well methinks, as you only need three shots to go through for a kill.

>lay down
>pretend to be dead

Jokes aside i found that our planes combining with our psykich power can do a lot against our dark kin.

Plus shining spear!
My opponent had some kabalites in a venom and i encircled that cardboard boaty think killing all what was inside.
Shining spear are still awesome imho

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Thoughts on the falcon for small point games?

Not a huge fan of the Falcon in this edition. I prefer Fire Prisms for firepower or Serpents for durability. They seem to be a compromise unit that under performs compared to both.

Interesting takes on the falcons. I haven't got any experience with them myself.

I'm working towards spinners/prisms. More exited for spinners going into my army than anything else tbh. Maybe warp spiders...

Alaitoc Warp Spiders are beasts you can easily go -4 to hit

 Karhedron wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Thoughts on the falcon for small point games?

Not a huge fan of the Falcon in this edition. I prefer Fire Prisms for firepower or Serpents for durability. They seem to be a compromise unit that under performs compared to both.

Yeah, it definitely didn't make its points back in the game I played, it killed half a dozen ork boyz and fell out of the sky. Lucky rolls, but the point stands, it didn't do enough.

In relation to Warp Spiders, as much as I love them, I don't think they're good enough, even with -4 to hit. They don't have a big enough impact.

I'm considering investing in some Crimson Hunters/Hemlocks at long last, they aren't really my style but hey ho.

Fire prisms are amazing. Night Spinners get hard countered against so many targets in my experience, and often end up being shot against chaff, where they're a waste. I know a lot of people rate them however, and they're great against 4++ units for example. I guess it's just a meta thing.

 grouchoben wrote:
Fire prisms are amazing. Night Spinners get hard countered against so many targets in my experience, and often end up being shot against chaff, where they're a waste. I know a lot of people rate them however, and they're great against 4++ units for example. I guess it's just a meta thing.

They're good for ITC/ETC where you don't have LOS on targets and they're hideable to an extent.

I love my Fire Prisms, they always put in the work and they always make their points back.

The problem with the falcon is not that it is bad, but it’s outshined by other units in the book. Which frankly, has been it’s cross to bear for most of it’s history.
I reguarly field two. They are the models that started me on Eldar back at the end of 2nd when they first came out. Normally with brightlances on the side, to keep them focused on AV work.

Cargo is sometimes empty, but one usually houses a squad of DA, and the other FDs. Sometimes a HQ like Jain Zar or a seer will start in one to lower drops.

I play pretty casual with a limited collection, but enjoy them. They might not be game-breaking, but they are solid workhorses. Your points could probably be spent better elsewhere, but the noble Falcon would love to have them.