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 Zimko wrote:
Fast Dice is an optional way to roll wounds but it's not how wound rolls work. Technically, every single shot from an Acid Spray is rolled one at a time, resolving wound rolls, then save rolls for each shot before moving on to the next die in the pool. Therefore, to play it RAW, you must roll the Acid Spray shots one at a time, deciding to use the stratagem after a single failed wound... or you do what ETC ruled and declare that you're using it before using Fast Dice to roll.

Deciding to use the stratagem after rolling all dice in the pool and after resolving all saves in the pool is technically cheating, but most people don't know the nuances of Fast Dice and thus won't call you on it.

Interesting point. Here's the section on fast rolling:

Fast Dice
Rolling
The rules for resolving
attacks have been written
assuming you will make
them one at a time.
However, it is possible to
speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar
attacks together. In order
to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit. If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then
all of the wound rolls. Your
opponent can then allocate
the wounds one at a time,
making the saving throws
and suffering damage
each time as appropriate.
Remember, if the target
unit contains a model
that has already lost any
wounds, they must allocate
further wounds to this
model until either it is slain,
or all the wounds have been
saved or resolved

Bolded for emphasis. Rolling multiple saves at once is actually breaking RAW. So if my opponent wants to fast roll their saves, they're actually not even playing within the parameters of fast dice rolling.

Playing with fast dice rolling still allows you to use this stratagem after all wound rolls have been decided, though. As, both players have agreed to play fast rolling wherever possible.

Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.

Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol


EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance

Is it cheating to use the +1 damage after rolling? I agree that it’s cheap, but not cheating. Nids need all the edge we can get nowadays

If you wait until after your opponent rolls saves, then spring the stratagem on them, then yeah I'd say it is cheating. Marmatag showed the exact rules. It's pretty clear that you must declare the stratagem before saves are rolled, but you can wait until after rolling to wound to decide.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.

Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol


EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance

I thought about that, but single-minded annihilation only works for <INFANTRY> keyword :(

But you're right, in a general sense shooting twice is far superior to adding 1 damage.

That said most of us run Hive Tyrants with Twin Devourers, and 12 of those shots dealing 2 damage can really put the hurt on something. Especially Eldar.

 Marmatag wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.

Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol


EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance

I thought about that, but single-minded annihilation only works for <INFANTRY> keyword :(

But you're right, in a general sense shooting twice is far superior to adding 1 damage.

That said most of us run Hive Tyrants with Twin Devourers, and 12 of those shots dealing 2 damage can really put the hurt on something. Especially Eldar.

Minor nit pick, Tyrannofexen are GunBeasts so they shoot twice if they don't move as an organic feature. I also concur that you need to pop the strat before saves. Just as a matter of sportsmanship, as well as rules as written.

 Marmatag wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.

Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol


EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance

I thought about that, but single-minded annihilation only works for <INFANTRY> keyword :(

But you're right, in a general sense shooting twice is far superior to adding 1 damage.

That said most of us run Hive Tyrants with Twin Devourers, and 12 of those shots dealing 2 damage can really put the hurt on something. Especially Eldar.

Tfexes get to shoot twice if they remain stationary. He wasn’t referring to the strategem.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.

Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol


EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance

I thought about that, but single-minded annihilation only works for <INFANTRY> keyword :(

But you're right, in a general sense shooting twice is far superior to adding 1 damage.

That said most of us run Hive Tyrants with Twin Devourers, and 12 of those shots dealing 2 damage can really put the hurt on something. Especially Eldar.

Tfexes get to shoot twice if they remain stationary. He wasn’t referring to the strategem.

Yes, I realize that. I assumed we were talking about comparative choice for places to spend command points.

Everyone keeps calling Tyranids a high tier army, and while that may have been true earlier in the edition, I can't see this statement as true anymore. Tiers in every competitive game I've played have been based on match ups, IE a very strong character/race/build cannot be considered high tier if its match ups are bad vs other top tier armies. Since I started playing, GW have released 2 very powerful codexes in both Knights and DE - both of which have one of their best match ups against Nids, one of which being perfectly positioned to capitalise on and exploit the aspect of the game that we struggle the most to deal with (Knights), and the other being perfectly built to deal with and counter our most common features and strengths as an army just by virtue of design (Dark Eldar). With this in mind, I can't honestly describe Tyranids as being higher than mid tier right now, as no matter how capable we are vs the rest of the game, an army that gets countered so heavily by the current two strongest and most popular dexes, is a competitive liability, and serves the role more as the dark horse in the tournament, who may knock some extremely powerful armies out the comp but simply isn't positioned to have a very high chance of winning themselves - ironically, exactly what DE and Knights both used to be throughout the history of the game.


On the other hand, I think this is the hardest yard for us, and DE and Knights have always been a bane of ours in every edition. While DE and Knights are unlikely to lose much play, the addition of factions like Orks and Wolves to the game (two armies designed in a much more attractive manner to Tyranids, who we stand a very good chance of being one of the better armies against), I think meta changes will only be positive for us going forth. And who knows what toys we'll get with GSC release, as unlikely as it is maybe they will release something crazy like Jump Metamorphs or Aberrant Jetbikes that will help our Knight match up or something, or something similar but more thematic that surprises us, I'm not ruling anything out yet. And at the very least we'll get hard confirmation on whether or not we'll be allowed to ally in a Shadowsword.

Just my thoughts on the current state of Tyranids.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Everyone keeps calling Tyranids a high tier army, and while that may have been true earlier in the edition, I can't see this statement as true anymore. Tiers in every competitive game I've played have been based on match ups, IE a very strong character/race/build cannot be considered high tier if its match ups are bad vs other top tier armies. Since I started playing, GW have released 2 very powerful codexes in both Knights and DE - both of which have one of their best match ups against Nids, one of which being perfectly positioned to capitalise on and exploit the aspect of the game that we struggle the most to deal with (Knights), and the other being perfectly built to deal with and counter our most common features and strengths as an army just by virtue of design (Dark Eldar). With this in mind, I can't honestly describe Tyranids as being higher than mid tier right now, as no matter how capable we are vs the rest of the game, an army that gets countered so heavily by the current two strongest and most popular dexes, is a competitive liability, and serves the role more as the dark horse in the tournament, who may knock some extremely powerful armies out the comp but simply isn't positioned to have a very high chance of winning themselves - ironically, exactly what DE and Knights both used to be throughout the history of the game.


On the other hand, I think this is the hardest yard for us, and DE and Knights have always been a bane of ours in every edition. While DE and Knights are unlikely to lose much play, the addition of factions like Orks and Wolves to the game (two armies designed in a much more attractive manner to Tyranids, who we stand a very good chance of being one of the better armies against), I think meta changes will only be positive for us going forth. And who knows what toys we'll get with GSC release, as unlikely as it is maybe they will release something crazy like Jump Metamorphs or Aberrant Jetbikes that will help our Knight match up or something, or something similar but more thematic that surprises us, I'm not ruling anything out yet. And at the very least we'll get hard confirmation on whether or not we'll be allowed to ally in a Shadowsword.

Just my thoughts on the current state of Tyranids.

I tend to agree, and I think you should also add our unfavourable matchup with Tau to the list.

And for this reason I was surprised to see Nids doing better at tournaments, at least according to BOLS (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/08/this-week-in-competitive-40k-july-31.html). Anyone have the lists that are giving them these numbers?

I might be having different experiences than the rest of you, but what has been particularly troubling about knights? The Castellan is a huge pain in the rear, but other than that I am not impressed by damage output. My answer to the Castellan so far has been Mind Control followed by the Horror. Once you get that -1 to hit on it, they become reluctant to overcharge the big plasma. Then, trust to your spore cysts to make it through the firepower. I won't comment too much on DE, although I think that Grotesque spam is actually harder for us than VenomSpam. Also, Tau? I feel like we have very consistent access to negatives to hit and strong psychic, I have been overwhelming tau pretty easily so far. Stack negatives, wrap units in melee so they cant fall back, and you'll make it in.

Comparing anyone to Drukarhi right now is pointless. They are OP and way too cheap. Its crazy that the week 2 follow up FAQ didn't fix that codex like it did ours. Remember when flyrants and malanthropes were cheap, Lictors could Pheremone trail in GS?

Knights, you just have to play objectives against them. Focus all firepower on one at a time while using your superior numbers to grab objectives. you probably arn't going to table an IK list.

I still think Nids are a top tier army, you just have to take our best units. Right now that is GS, Hive Guard, Dakkafexes, Neuro, (flyrants/swarmy depending) and Venomthrope/Malanthrope for shroud.

DE can win against nids only because the stuff they have is undercosted.

We actually are a good counter to DE right now, Dessie cannons cannot hurt our flyrants efficently, and they have no answer to a gaunt swarm. Yes they have a basic weapon which is decent against our monsters, but even then? They have no AP, so as long as you don't play our "flyers", you shouldn't have problems with those, they shoot only a bit better than a bolter.
I haven't faced grotesque though, and they look like troubles.

I have only been playing Tyranids a few months but when I play them they feel like they are in a great spot. I have only had one game where I have felt like I stood no chance (against Dark Eldar).

I feel like we are just fine right now.

I do wonder why I am having a lot of success with a unit that most people aren't running though - Acid Spray Tyrannofex. They are the Boogeyman of my playgroup.

I am really struggling with how to use Genestealers and am thinking I may just replace them with Rippers to spend on more MC (I play Nidzilla).

Instead of making separate threads, y’all mind if we just discuss Tyranid Kill Teams here?

For my question, does anyone else have trouble justifying making using any other specialists other than Combat, Heavy, Comms, or Veteran? Doesn’t feel like the other specializations bring much to Tyranid Kill Teams.

Spoletta wrote:DE can win against nids only because the stuff they have is undercosted.

We actually are a good counter to DE right now, Dessie cannons cannot hurt our flyrants efficently, and they have no answer to a gaunt swarm. Yes they have a basic weapon which is decent against our monsters, but even then? They have no AP, so as long as you don't play our "flyers", you shouldn't have problems with those, they shoot only a bit better than a bolter.
I haven't faced grotesque though, and they look like troubles.

I gotta say you're the first person I've ever heard say that Tyranids counter DE. Shooting a bit better than a Bolter is a big deal. If Bolter's were S7-8 + Rapid Fire 3 at 36", they'd be a bigger threat too. And splinter isn't even their main threat thats just another bonus, their specialist weapons are the wave. On an army that can completely dictate range against a very short range army and be exactly where they need to be almost all the time, and thats just the more classic DE build, I actually think we perform marginally better against Talos, although the rest of the army makes it a massive pain.

I've never met a DE player who hasn't said Tyranids is their best match up.

jifel wrote:I might be having different experiences than the rest of you, but what has been particularly troubling about knights? The Castellan is a huge pain in the rear, but other than that I am not impressed by damage output. My answer to the Castellan so far has been Mind Control followed by the Horror. Once you get that -1 to hit on it, they become reluctant to overcharge the big plasma. Then, trust to your spore cysts to make it through the firepower. I won't comment too much on DE, although I think that Grotesque spam is actually harder for us than VenomSpam. Also, Tau? I feel like we have very consistent access to negatives to hit and strong psychic, I have been overwhelming tau pretty easily so far. Stack negatives, wrap units in melee so they cant fall back, and you'll make it in.

Interesting. I find that they are a big brick that can project their offensive easily anywhere on the board, that I struggle to lift off the table, and just quickly knock out the teeth of my army by virtue of being immune to most of it and targeting down the stuff that isn't. I'm using purist Nid dex at the moment, so I don't have access to Mind Control or Mass Hypnosis, but I'm planning on changing that soon once I finish off my cultist detachment, and maybe those will help. I have a few things in mind for it in fact, so I'll temporarily retract my statements on this match up until I feel a bit more comfortable, however if we can make it a fair match it definitely requires some list tailing, although I guess thats par for the case for most armies vs Knights.

Sinful Hero wrote:Instead of making separate threads, y’all mind if we just discuss Tyranid Kill Teams here?

For my question, does anyone else have trouble justifying making using any other specialists other than Combat, Heavy, Comms, or Veteran? Doesn’t feel like the other specializations bring much to Tyranid Kill Teams.

I too would prefer if we could just use this thread for Kill Team as well. I am waiting on my box to arrive so no input from me yet though.

Just went 3-0 at a 34 man ITC RTT this weekend, taking second. Ended up facing a Tau tigershark/IonHead list and then two consecutive IG/BA/Castellan lists. Castellans are really rough, in fact both of those games ended with my opponents castellan being alive after six turns, but their only model left. Don't have too much relevant insight on the Tau game, I mind controlled the tigershark and got purestrains into the tanks, tearing them to shreds. Round 2 I went second to the Castellan on a board with lots of area terrain but little line of sight blocking. Ended up losing all six hive guard, two carnifexes and my "the Horror" Neurothrope to the castellan and a forlorn furying captain on turn 1. Was able to recover by killing the captain with the Kraken stealers, then over-running towards a scout unit and using our fight twice strat to wrap them up. Purestrains came in and deleted a full 15 man Death Company unit (thank you Iconward!) and likewise wrapped up a scout unit. Killed both in his turn, and then repeated in my turn. Also ate a character to get some more CPs, and by my turn 3 I reached his Tank Commanders and wrapped them up, before falling back from one a turn to mind control the Knight into. The Castellan stomped around for 3 turns and ended up killing all 38 genestealers, but he never recovered from me holding more objectives for six turns. Second game was less tanks, but a whole lot more guard. This time I went first, and got a good turn of dakkafex shooting in to clear out the front line of infantry before the Castellan killed all five. Again, I used large kraken stealer blobs to hit a unit turn 1, shoot off and fight again to wrap infantry units that couldnt fall back. Smash captains and mephiston went in to try to clear them out, but with an invuln they never do much to single wound models. Smites and the patriarch in melee cleared them out. Game ended with the castellan falling back from my stealers and running into my lines to kill two characters a turn. It hurt, but at this point I had scattered units onto all four objectives and very comfortably was holding a lead so I just smited him until turn six ended with the knight hanging on to a few wounds.

Lessons: I have had a lot of games now against Castellan + CP friends with lots of screens. It means the Castellan is hard to get to, but it also ensures that fast Stealer units can continually wrap up models to deny shooting. You cant beat a Castellan at its game with Nids, we will absolutely lose the shooting battle. Deny its strengths and have characters that it cant reliably target floating around. Missiles hurt, but its only two turns. Also, getting the horror onto it is amazing when it works.

I've been thinking of more Melee horde nids to go against them, pockets of Genestealers, lots of Hormaganst and focus on getting and killing everything else, and hopefully use stratagems to MW and basically 5/6+ to wound down 1 of them. The flamer really hurts but having MSU it will have to over kill cheap 40pts units that will time up and take objectives, or he can really focus on the hard hitters and maybe lose the game.

 jifel wrote:
Just went 3-0 at a 34 man ITC RTT this weekend, taking second. Ended up facing a Tau tigershark/IonHead list and then two consecutive IG/BA/Castellan lists. Castellans are really rough, in fact both of those games ended with my opponents castellan being alive after six turns, but their only model left. Don't have too much relevant insight on the Tau game, I mind controlled the tigershark and got purestrains into the tanks, tearing them to shreds. Round 2 I went second to the Castellan on a board with lots of area terrain but little line of sight blocking. Ended up losing all six hive guard, two carnifexes and my "the Horror" Neurothrope to the castellan and a forlorn furying captain on turn 1. Was able to recover by killing the captain with the Kraken stealers, then over-running towards a scout unit and using our fight twice strat to wrap them up. Purestrains came in and deleted a full 15 man Death Company unit (thank you Iconward!) and likewise wrapped up a scout unit. Killed both in his turn, and then repeated in my turn. Also ate a character to get some more CPs, and by my turn 3 I reached his Tank Commanders and wrapped them up, before falling back from one a turn to mind control the Knight into. The Castellan stomped around for 3 turns and ended up killing all 38 genestealers, but he never recovered from me holding more objectives for six turns. Second game was less tanks, but a whole lot more guard. This time I went first, and got a good turn of dakkafex shooting in to clear out the front line of infantry before the Castellan killed all five. Again, I used large kraken stealer blobs to hit a unit turn 1, shoot off and fight again to wrap infantry units that couldnt fall back. Smash captains and mephiston went in to try to clear them out, but with an invuln they never do much to single wound models. Smites and the patriarch in melee cleared them out. Game ended with the castellan falling back from my stealers and running into my lines to kill two characters a turn. It hurt, but at this point I had scattered units onto all four objectives and very comfortably was holding a lead so I just smited him until turn six ended with the knight hanging on to a few wounds.

Lessons: I have had a lot of games now against Castellan + CP friends with lots of screens. It means the Castellan is hard to get to, but it also ensures that fast Stealer units can continually wrap up models to deny shooting. You cant beat a Castellan at its game with Nids, we will absolutely lose the shooting battle. Deny its strengths and have characters that it cant reliably target floating around. Missiles hurt, but its only two turns. Also, getting the horror onto it is amazing when it works.

Excellent post jifel, thanks for the great insight. You mind sharing your list?

Yep. Been running this for two months now and haven't really had reason to change it. Might tweak a little though given how many Castellans I am seeing now. Played in two RTTs the last two weekends, four of six games were against Castellan and support!

 Sinful Hero wrote:

For my question, does anyone else have trouble justifying making using any other specialists other than Combat, Heavy, Comms, or Veteran? Doesn’t feel like the other specializations bring much to Tyranid Kill Teams.

To be fair, that is almost all of the specializations available to Tyranids with exception to Scout. Tyranids don't have access to Medic, Zealot, or Sniper.

I think Scout might be useful on a Lictor in general (doubles down on the bonus -1 to hit and adds more mobility options to get them through terrain) or as part of a gunline for the reroll 1's to hit via tactic or ability. It looks like it would be a stronger specialization in campaign play than a quick matched play skirmish though, since several of its abilities are tied to campaign mechanics. The others are more straightforward in their use.

 jifel wrote:

Spoiler:

Yep. Been running this for two months now and haven't really had reason to change it. Might tweak a little though given how many Castellans I am seeing now. Played in two RTTs the last two weekends, four of six games were against Castellan and support!

Very nice! If Knights keep popping up maybe some Hammers, or drills could become a "thing". Though a Might boosted Brood of Purestrains can do a lot of damage.

If knights keep popping up i think that we should re evaluate our shock guards. Against a knight with 4++ they sport a score of 33,65 points per wound, where an impaler guard is 72,72.

6 shock guards cost 234 points and in double fire take 14,7 wounds from a knight. They are also good against DE.

Yeah, I've got to admit I've always liked ShockGuard. Its just been that Impalers are so awesome, and points are so tight.....

 jifel wrote:


Yep. Been running this for two months now and haven't really had reason to change it. Might tweak a little though given how many Castellans I am seeing now. Played in two RTTs the last two weekends, four of six games were against Castellan and support!

Out of curiosity why are the dakka fexes kraken?

weaver9 wrote:

 jifel wrote:


Yep. Been running this for two months now and haven't really had reason to change it. Might tweak a little though given how many Castellans I am seeing now. Played in two RTTs the last two weekends, four of six games were against Castellan and support!

Out of curiosity why are the dakka fexes kraken?

I'm all about speed. Jormungandrs unwillingness to advance frustrated me, it felt like it trapped me into not advancing to get in range so I abandoned it completely. I prefer the options of kraken and the ability to get the 18" Devourers in range more reliably, because kraken makes their average threat range about 30". And they never sit still for Kronos lol. A lot of the other top Nid players take Deathspitters, which I believe is a trap. The speed of kraken compensates for the range lost.

I run all my Dakkafexes Kraken too, I even take AG on them when I can afford it. They have 7" movespeed and the ability to run and gun and STILL hit on a 4+ thanks to senses, giving them the best roll you can get and a +1 with AG means they are moving 13-14" a turn and can get you firing away with every Dakkafex as quickly as possible. Have a bunch of lightning fast KrakkaFexes feels really strong, and can really throw people for a loop too as a bonus (everyone else runs slow fexes and they've been slow as hell for years).

I mostly only run Kraken and i have Dakka Fex's, Hive guard, etc.. I could run a spearhead of Kronos but i just dont care enough, when i get my new Hive guard (I still have 9 of the old ones) i will paint them different so i can have Kraken and Kronos ones.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I run all my Dakkafexes Kraken too, I even take AG on them when I can afford it. They have 7" movespeed and the ability to run and gun and STILL hit on a 4+ thanks to senses, giving them the best roll you can get and a +1 with AG means they are moving 13-14" a turn and can get you firing away with every Dakkafex as quickly as possible. Have a bunch of lightning fast KrakkaFexes feels really strong, and can really throw people for a loop too as a bonus (everyone else runs slow fexes and they've been slow as hell for years).

Do you give your Fexes anything in the way of close combat biomorphs then? I like Acid Maw, but it gets in the way of Enhanced Senses. But I feel that without any CC protection they'll just get bogged down (of course, being Kraken they can just fallback, so maybe it's not such a big deal)

Also, Bonus points for the term "KrakkaFexes"

Polkadragon wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I run all my Dakkafexes Kraken too, I even take AG on them when I can afford it. They have 7" movespeed and the ability to run and gun and STILL hit on a 4+ thanks to senses, giving them the best roll you can get and a +1 with AG means they are moving 13-14" a turn and can get you firing away with every Dakkafex as quickly as possible. Have a bunch of lightning fast KrakkaFexes feels really strong, and can really throw people for a loop too as a bonus (everyone else runs slow fexes and they've been slow as hell for years).

Do you give your Fexes anything in the way of close combat biomorphs then? I like Acid Maw, but it gets in the way of Enhanced Senses. But I feel that without any CC protection they'll just get bogged down (of course, being Kraken they can just fallback and shoot again, so maybe it's not such a big deal)

Also, Bonus points for the term "KrakkaFexes"

Yes! I use Bone Maces everytime. It bumps them up to 5 attacks, and they hit on 3+ on the charge, and that mace let's them chip at Tanks... and it's really cheap, and the Fex covers a lot of ground with the upgrades.


If running them like this, and if you aren't using Sporocysts (I have a Malanthrope in my list atm), I also have been liking Spine Banks. With 5-6 Fexen, it's up to 24 extra S5 shots, hitting 3+ thanks to Senses, for just 10 pts, thaat can shoot while in CC. And you have the speed to get use of them, even if not consistently, and it's really not a significant tax in the games where you don't get to use it.





Also thanks! Cracklings from Starcraft was a term for Zerglings with both speed upgrades, so KrakkaFexes just makes sense as the perfect term for Dakkafexes with Kraken + AG speed boosts! Haha