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Spoletta wrote:
Problem is that both zoans and neuros cast 2 powers but know only one, so they indeed smite each turn. I didn't count the stratagem though.

Also, with neurothropes reroll 1 psychic test and another regular CP reroll the can jumpstart that smite towards a 11 or 12 result -> d6 mortal wounds.

Spoletta wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
It all depends on the missions. In ITC, that list won't do much except get 2 points a turn for holding objectives and occasionally a point for killing something. In book missions or missions where holding objectives i worth more than killing, it'll do great.

And yet that list is clearly of ITC, or he wouldn't have those x19 gants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With 6x smites, don't they hit a wall with the smite beta rules?

Uhhh... no. It's not for ITC. The x19 gants mean nothing if you have 6 units of 30. He probably took units of 19 because he ran out of points, and just wanted each unit to have the same number of models in the second battalion.

WarGames Con X was indeed an ITC event, so let's just stop the speculation on that right here.

Very well, I stand corrected. Was the old champion missions or the recently released ones? EDIT: Nevermind. It was not ITC missions


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
WarGames Con X was indeed an ITC event, so let's just stop the speculation on that right here.

Actually... these were not using Champion missions at all. They used ITC scoring but the missions were completely different.

https://www.wargamescon.com/documents

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a79cebed7bdce835dfd1e31/t/5b4fd6c8f950b763cddd7f6d/1531959002328/WGC+Death+in+Fire+%28Assault+of+the+Servo+Dogs%29+v3.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a79cebed7bdce835dfd1e31/t/5b58a9710e2e723fea164649/1532537203564/WGC+Bust+a+Move+v3.pdf

The secondaries for these missions were all over the place. Only a few involve killing units.

 Zimko wrote:
Very well, I stand corrected. Was the old champion missions or the recently released ones? EDIT: Nevermind. It was not ITC missions


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
WarGames Con X was indeed an ITC event, so let's just stop the speculation on that right here.

Actually... these were not using Champion missions at all. They used ITC scoring but the missions were completely different.

https://www.wargamescon.com/documents

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a79cebed7bdce835dfd1e31/t/5b4fd6c8f950b763cddd7f6d/1531959002328/WGC+Death+in+Fire+%28Assault+of+the+Servo+Dogs%29+v3.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a79cebed7bdce835dfd1e31/t/5b58a9710e2e723fea164649/1532537203564/WGC+Bust+a+Move+v3.pdf

Gotcha. Glad we got that ironed out.

The point to all this. Every tournament is going to have different winning lists. You have to cater your list to the missions. This termagaunt spam list is catered for a mission that can be won with just holding objectives. The smites kill some stuff but not quickly. I'm sure it would do well using book missions as well.

I doubt it'll do well in ITC missions.

I just want to point out that I know it's not the same thing, but an extremely similar build was one of the heavy lifters for the American team in this years ETC championships this month, and they ended up winning the event.

Indeed, I haven't seen the ETC missions. The team events in general though are an anomaly all on their own. Each player on a winning team usually has at least 1 or more losses. There's a lot of rock-paper-scissors strategy involved in the pairings.

 Zimko wrote:
Indeed, I haven't seen the ETC missions. The team events in general though are an anomaly all on their own. Each player on a winning team usually has at least 1 or more losses. There's a lot of rock-paper-scissors strategy involved in the pairings.

This seems to be not the case of the american team this year. I heared somewhere (BoLS?) that their lists were pretty much TAC lists.

Nick wrote an article somewhere, but I can't find it. He talked about each match and how things went down. Each pairings they have some people that 'eat the sword' for the team by facing an army that they have very low hopes of defeating. Their only goal in those games is to earn SOME points and not get completely crushed.

This implies a bit of rock-paper-scissors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here it is:

https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2018/08/08/records-are-meant-to-be-broken-etc-2018-recap/

And here's one about pairings in team events:

https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2018/07/10/pick-your-poison-a-guide-to-pairings-in-team-tournaments/

There's a lot of insight to be gained from this stuff. I don't know what the perfect list for ITC is or what the perfect list for NOVA will be. But then again, I don't put as much time into it as Nick does.

Be that as it may for team events, that was not that case with this Tyranid list. Sean Nayden said that their IG/BA/Knight list and that Tyranid list, were their two powerhouses all day who they just threw at lists knowing that they'd grab a win. Andrew Gonyo's AdMech was who they threw to wolves when they needed to do that.

Despite that, the tyranid list went 4 and 2 at ETC. Tony's Guard went 6 and 0.

 Zimko wrote:
Despite that, the tyranid list went 4 and 2 at ETC. Tony's Guard went 6 and 0.

Which stands to reason, considering they were both getting thrown at the toughest lists, and one was the strongest combination of the top 3 Imperium detachments they could build, and one was just Tyranids. Tony's was designed to be their all star, and every other list came second to that, and that was their process in building their composition. They were surprised by the Nick Rose Tyranid list themselves but in testing found it to be strong and on their day it was one of their strongest choices for when they wanted a win.

This is all from the mouth of team captain Sean Nayden BTW.

Or counter the powers, but that still requires you to go 1st and get close enough

Here is a neat way to view the ETC lists:
https://tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKIndividualLeaderboard.aspx?id=2471

One thing I can't figure out is this game:
https://tourneykeeper.net/Shared/TKShowGame.aspx?GameId=40573

Feels like board control Tyranids could lock up the low model count Deathguard fairly easily. The list has 3 vindicators for crying out loud. What am I missing?

tag8833 wrote:
Here is a neat way to view the ETC lists:
https://tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKIndividualLeaderboard.aspx?id=2471

One thing I can't figure out is this game:
https://tourneykeeper.net/Shared/TKShowGame.aspx?GameId=40573

Feels like board control Tyranids could lock up the low model count Deathguard fairly easily. The list has 3 vindicators for crying out loud. What am I missing?

Could be a game where dice happened? ETC uses maelstrom missions after all. If Nick was tasked with killing fortifications or holding objectives on the far end of the board while his opponent had to kill psykers and have 3 units in his own DZ, I can see why the Death Guard would win. But yes, in an ITC mission I would expect the bugs to win that game 9 times out of 10.

tag8833 wrote:
They streamed that list twice. The most interesting thing watching him play was that the gants were on movement trays, and he didn't seem to be measuring them before moving. Just sort of eyeballing it. Had he gone 1st against Nick he would have stood a better chance, though with Nick's endless psychics, and shoot twice / move twice / fight twice gimmicks, I'm not sure he wins even them. It seems like the only counter to nick's army is a shooting army going 1st and killing the shining spears. If you can counter his psychics you've got him too, but realistically that probably isn't going to happen. It feels like he casts 20-30 psychic powers per turn, and he so rarely fails any.

Movement trays isn't weird(I have for orks. Great help) but not measuring? Were the moves clearly less than M value if opponent didn't protest then?

So, having Tooth and Claw in hand I'm thinking the Abominant might surpass Magi as the go-to HQ for allied GSC detachments. They are very tough (T5, 5 wounds, 5+ FNP, -1 damage suffered per wound, regains D3 wounds back per turn, and Unquestioning Loyalty for a 4+ to pass wounds to another GSC infantry unit), hit like a truck (3 WS:3+ S12, AP-3, 3-6 damage attacks with 6's to hit causing 2 hits due to his Chosen One ability and his having the Aberrant keyword), and an augment for Shadow In the Warp with another -1 to casting attempts bubble (so -2 with both) for only 10 points more than a Neurothrope…

It doesn't do what Magus does tho, the least important thing is their resilience it's not what GSC allies are for

Just got back from an ITC Primer event. My first 2k games ever, second tournament, and definitely had never looked at the tactical objective cards before.

I went 1-1-1 for the day tying DE, beating Necrons, and getting tabled by Orks.

I ran:
Kronos Battalion of 2x Flyrants (Miasma Cannon, Venom Cannon), 10 Termagants, 2x Rippers, 6 Hive Guard, 2 Tyrannofex (Acid Spray)
Kraken Battalion of Swarmlord, Broodlord, 15 Genestealers, 2x Rippers.

Wow did the Broodlord suck. Swarmlord was kind of meh too. 300 to catapult the Genestealers just didn't seem worth.

The Tyrannofex again we're the MVP of the day. Even the Flyrants didn't really perform well shooting or melee.

Really need to decide if I need two battalion or if I drop one HQ and run a single battalion and spearhead with 3 Tyrannofex.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
So, having Tooth and Claw in hand I'm thinking the Abominant might surpass Magi as the go-to HQ for allied GSC detachments. They are very tough (T5, 5 wounds, 5+ FNP, -1 damage suffered per wound, regains D3 wounds back per turn, and Unquestioning Loyalty for a 4+ to pass wounds to another GSC infantry unit), hit like a truck (3 WS:3+ S12, AP-3, 3-6 damage attacks with 6's to hit causing 2 hits due to his Chosen One ability and his having the Aberrant keyword), and an augment for Shadow In the Warp with another -1 to casting attempts bubble (so -2 with both) for only 10 points more than a Neurothrope…

I agree that it looks promising. I'm thinking of a anti-Knight squad. Hammer time, plus some Smites, and extra shooting just might take a Knight down too far to be effective...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stalkerzero wrote:
Just got back from an ITC Primer event. My first 2k games ever, second tournament, and definitely had never looked at the tactical objective cards before.

I went 1-1-1 for the day tying DE, beating Necrons, and getting tabled by Orks.

I ran:
Kronos Battalion of 2x Flyrants (Miasma Cannon, Venom Cannon), 10 Termagants, 2x Rippers, 6 Hive Guard, 2 Tyrannofex (Acid Spray)
Kraken Battalion of Swarmlord, Broodlord, 15 Genestealers, 2x Rippers.

Wow did the Broodlord suck. Swarmlord was kind of meh too. 300 to catapult the Genestealers just didn't seem worth.

The Tyrannofex again we're the MVP of the day. Even the Flyrants didn't really perform well shooting or melee.

Really need to decide if I need two battalion or if I drop one HQ and run a single battalion and spearhead with 3 Tyrannofex.

Congrats on getting a tie off of DE, as they are all the hotness right now. I don't much like Swarmy I think if you want to include her, you need to build the list around that. I am glad to hear Tyranofexen are workable, as I've always liked them.

I think I would have swapped the Swarmy for a Winged Tyrant (assuming you have the figs) and tried a Kronos Brigade. I've been thinking that MSU Kronos Warriors just might be a cool thing to try.

Good luck! And good hunting!

stalkerzero wrote:
Just got back from an ITC Primer event. My first 2k games ever, second tournament, and definitely had never looked at the tactical objective cards before.

I went 1-1-1 for the day tying DE, beating Necrons, and getting tabled by Orks.

I ran:
Kronos Battalion of 2x Flyrants (Miasma Cannon, Venom Cannon), 10 Termagants, 2x Rippers, 6 Hive Guard, 2 Tyrannofex (Acid Spray)
Kraken Battalion of Swarmlord, Broodlord, 15 Genestealers, 2x Rippers.

Wow did the Broodlord suck. Swarmlord was kind of meh too. 300 to catapult the Genestealers just didn't seem worth.

The Tyrannofex again we're the MVP of the day. Even the Flyrants didn't really perform well shooting or melee.

Really need to decide if I need two battalion or if I drop one HQ and run a single battalion and spearhead with 3 Tyrannofex.

Grtz on playing and i hope you had fun.

How did the T-fex's do?

I stopped taking Swarmlord, b.c equal points in Genestealers just gets me more wounds and more attempts to charge, better board control, more troops, etc.. I do miss out of 4++ copare to 5++, but Multi-damage weapons are now pointless, the worst part is less powers, but again i already have Neurothopes/Tyrants/Zoans, I dont really need the extra smite or anything.

He is still fun for casual games for sure, just not for tournaments.

Generally speaking would you all to advise a Tfex with Rupture Canon, or equivilant points in Hive Guard?

weaver9 wrote:
Generally speaking would you all to advise a Tfex with Rupture Canon, or equivilant points in Hive Guard?

They do the same damage vs a Rhino

If you dont move and both are in range

Tfex: Vs Rhino 5.84 wounds with 6 shots
HG: Vs Rhino 5.93 wounds with 5HG/10 shots

Same points, same damage, the difference is 1 can hide 1 can not. So it really comes down to you.

Personally i like HG better b.c they can hive behind a wall and deal damage, i like my Tfex with Acid Spray b.c turn 1 i rush it up field towards the middle objective(s) within range to shoot it, and they have to kill not only my troops but the Tfex to claim the objective, even at 1 wound left the Acid Spray Tfex shoots at full strength b.c it aut hits, the 18" range is crazy good for a flamer that does 4D6 hits (14hits on average).

Actually the big difference is SMA, it's really the most important factor there and means one unit of HG can literally have the shooting of 2, not sure how that didn't get a mention.

Also, Acid Spray Tyrannofex's wound profile is very important, the flamer goes from S7 all the way to S5, far from full strength

 SHUPPET wrote:
Actually the big difference is SMA, it's really the most important factor there and means one unit of HG can literally have the shooting of 2, not sure how that didn't get a mention.

Also, Acid Spray Tyrannofex's wound profile is very important, the flamer goes from S7 all the way to S5, far from full strength

But against infantry thats not to big of a deal, wounding on 2 vs a 3 (or 3 to 4) when you have 14 hits isnt much different compare to hitting on 5+ with 6 shots, with a weapon like the Rupture cannon, thats an important weapon to hit so you dont want it missing. But with Kronos you could make it re-roll 1's.

And dont forget tho, you can make its Damage +1 for 2CP, Always 2D flamer weapon at 18" that could be 4D is important to think about as well.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Actually the big difference is SMA, it's really the most important factor there and means one unit of HG can literally have the shooting of 2, not sure how that didn't get a mention.

Also, Acid Spray Tyrannofex's wound profile is very important, the flamer goes from S7 all the way to S5, far from full strength

But against infantry thats not to big of a deal, wounding on 2 vs a 3 (or 3 to 4) when you have 14 hits isnt much different compare to hitting on 5+ with 6 shots, with a weapon like the Rupture cannon, thats an important weapon to hit so you dont want it missing. But with Kronos you could make it re-roll 1's.

You literally just said he shoots at full strength even on 1 wound, that is wrong, being able to shred tanks and flyers is a massive boon, he loses this with his wound profile and youre then only pointing him at infantry to get his money's worth.

And dont forget tho, you can make its Damage +1 for 2CP, Always 2D flamer weapon at 18" that could be 4D is important to think about as well.

OK so now you're back to pointing him at tanks? Seeing as most infantry dont really give a crap? Then the wound profile matters. You do this stratagem when he's at full strength too for even greater returns, it's also made weaker by the wound profile dropping.


Put whatever spin you like on it, but his wound profile is most definitely important.

Basically if your opponent doesn't have a solid answer to a T8 monster or has cold dice, 2 acid spray tfex will deal some serious damage.

The problem is that you can't play in a competitive RTT without encountering a super heavy that will kill one (at least) per turn, or Eldar Hemlocks + Reapers, which will also kill one per turn. All of this from out of range.

Acid Spray is a very good weapon if you don't run into its hard counters. But, you probably will. And, as mentioned, if it gets degraded to strength 5, that's a pretty dramatic reduction against T6 and T7, which is a lot of things.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Actually the big difference is SMA, it's really the most important factor there and means one unit of HG can literally have the shooting of 2, not sure how that didn't get a mention.

Also, Acid Spray Tyrannofex's wound profile is very important, the flamer goes from S7 all the way to S5, far from full strength

But against infantry thats not to big of a deal, wounding on 2 vs a 3 (or 3 to 4) when you have 14 hits isnt much different compare to hitting on 5+ with 6 shots, with a weapon like the Rupture cannon, thats an important weapon to hit so you dont want it missing. But with Kronos you could make it re-roll 1's.

You literally just said he shoots at full strength even on 1 wound, that is wrong, being able to shred tanks and flyers is a massive boon, he loses this with his wound profile and youre then only pointing him at infantry to get his money's worth.

And dont forget tho, you can make its Damage +1 for 2CP, Always 2D flamer weapon at 18" that could be 4D is important to think about as well.

OK so now you're back to pointing him at tanks? Seeing as most infantry dont really give a crap? Then the wound profile matters. You do this stratagem when he's at full strength too for even greater returns, it's also made weaker by the wound profile dropping.


Put whatever spin you like on it, but his wound profile is most definitely important.

I never said anything about tanks, i think i said the opposite actually, i use it to kill units like Shiny Spears, Grots, etc.. You cant even kill a Venom in 1 2D6 hits at full str without extra CP's, compare to killing 5 Shiny Spears and units a like.

Being St 5 compare to Str 7 does hurt a bit yes, but against many units it doesnt matter, its still wounding on 3+ no matter what, so no its not wrong.

If you like it hunting Tanks, sure go for it, but literally HG deals the same wounds to tanks, even against -1 to hit ones, i'd rather it keep important foot units units at bay and make sure no one is touching an objective.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


I never said anything about tanks, i think i said the opposite actually, i use it to kill units like Shiny Spears, Grots, etc.

So you're spending 2CP to do extra damage against a unit you are already killing in 1 hit 66.6% of the time anyway, and act like this is better than +1 to wound on all your autohits? Well alright. Sounds to me like another example of something that is just also weakened by the Tyrannofex losing wounds, but spin it how you need to.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Being St 5 compare to Str 7 does hurt a bit yes, but against many units it doesnt matter, its still wounding on 3+ no matter what, so no its not wrong.

I mean, that's literally the opposite of what you said to begin with, so yes, it was wrong, but okay.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
If you like it hunting Tanks, sure go for it, but literally HG deals the same wounds to tanks, even against -1 to hit ones, i'd rather it keep important foot units units at bay and make sure no one is touching an objective.

The point is, you can do both. Losing an entire targeting profile on a unit that has only 18" range and wants to remain stationary to apply it's damage, is a big difference. Trying to sell it as though it's wound profile doesn't matter is just a vast misunderstanding of the unit.




Anyway, I'm bailing out of this one. I think everyone else realises that S7 flamer is significantly stronger than a S5 one, and not the same as "firing at full strength" at all.