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 JNAProductions wrote:
Why Gants?

And what should I give the tyrants?

Termagants are just a cheap, fearless (under synapse) scoring unit. 4 pt fearless bodies that contribute where they can, almost every list you build will inevitably run a few of them.

Dual Devourers on the Tyrant. The Wings count as rending Claws if you want them to, so it doubles as both popular load outs as one.

Magnets. Magnetize any MCs you build so you don't have to go back and destroy them when the game inevitably changes.

(The below is a repost and I think it's still about accurate)

Flyrants, Rippers, Genestealers, Hive Guard are probably our best overall units that can fit into almost any list. I would expect to see at least 2 of these units in any tournament level list.

Hormagaunts, Exocrines, Neurothropes, Malanthrope, termagants, Trygons, Swarmlord, Tyrannofex, Carnifex, Biovores, Mucolid Spores are all very good units, and several from this list will likely appear in most lists. Some are a bit more specialized and are unlikely to appear in certain styles of lists. You can easily build a competitive list using many of these units.

Gargoyles, Dimacheron, Venomthrope, Toxicrene, Pyrovore, Warriors, Old One Eye, Sporocysts, Spore Mines, Zoanthropes, Walking Tyrants, Broodlords, Raveners, Red Terror, Mawloc, Tyrannocyte are all completely usable units. They are not exceptional statistically, and may be overshadowed by other units for their role. However, they may perform some specific function that cannot be fulfilled elsewhere, or there may be specific playstyle builds that revolve around them. Sporocysts, for example, are something I would never recommend to a new player to randomly include, but smart play with a list built around them has a lot of possibilities. Playing at a casual level, units from this list should not leave you feeling as if you're fighting uphill, except in bad matchups.

Tyrant Guard, Haruspex, Lictors, Crone, Harpy, Tervigon, Malceptor, Deathleaper are objectively weak units. They statistically lack durability/damage for their cost, while also failing to provide specialized abilities that cannot be found elsewhere. Luckily for us, even our weakest tier of units are still actually objectively ~decent~, so you can include these units in casual play if you really like them. So long as they're not the majority of your army, you shouldn't feel handicapped. Just don't expect them to do much. Some of these units may be used for gimmicks, but in general, their roles can be filled elsewhere more effectively.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Magnets. Magnetize any MCs you build so you don't have to go back and destroy them when the game inevitably changes.

(The below is a repost and I think it's still about accurate)

Flyrants, Rippers, Genestealers, Hive Guard are probably our best overall units that can fit into almost any list. I would expect to see at least 2 of these units in any tournament level list.

Hormagaunts, Exocrines, Neurothropes, Malanthrope, termagants, Trygons, Swarmlord, Tyrannofex, Carnifex, Biovores, Mucolid Spores are all very good units, and several from this list will likely appear in most lists. Some are a bit more specialized and are unlikely to appear in certain styles of lists. You can easily build a competitive list using many of these units.

Gargoyles, Dimacheron, Venomthrope, Toxicrene, Pyrovore, Warriors, Old One Eye, Sporocysts, Spore Mines, Zoanthropes, Walking Tyrants, Broodlords, Raveners, Red Terror, Mawloc, Tyrannocyte are all completely usable units. They are not exceptional statistically, and may be overshadowed by other units for their role. However, they may perform some specific function that cannot be fulfilled elsewhere, or there may be specific playstyle builds that revolve around them. Sporocysts, for example, are something I would never recommend to a new player to randomly include, but smart play with a list built around them has a lot of possibilities. Playing at a casual level, units from this list should not leave you feeling as if you're fighting uphill, except in bad matchups.

Tyrant Guard, Haruspex, Lictors, Crone, Harpy, Tervigon, Malceptor, Deathleaper are objectively weak units. They statistically lack durability/damage for their cost, while also failing to provide specialized abilities that cannot be found elsewhere. Luckily for us, even our weakest tier of units are still actually objectively ~decent~, so you can include these units in casual play if you really like them. So long as they're not the majority of your army, you shouldn't feel handicapped. Just don't expect them to do much. Some of these units may be used for gimmicks, but in general, their roles can be filled elsewhere more effectively.

I disagree with some of your rankings (i grade Maleceptors and Lictors much higher for example), but in general this is a good list. Just be sure to put off any purchase of hive guards until CA, they have good chances of being on the chopping board.

If Tyranids, an underperforming tournament army, have their sole source of decent AT nerfed, then GW is more incompetent than I could imagine. There's so much imbalance in the dex, almost the entire melee portion of the Dex is useless next to Stealers. Even with Hive Guard we have serious struggles against Knights etc. I can't imagine HG will be nerfed, but then again I'm an idiot fluff author who thinks Raven Guard was OP so what do I know

Rippers are pretty great but you only get them from termagant and genestealer boxes. Luckily those are all decent units so it’s fine.

A box of warriors is decent, mostly because they have every option under the sun on their sprue which is nice for kitting out your tyrants.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why Gants?

And what should I give the tyrants?

Termagaunts are cheap and felixble as hell. If you are ambitious, you can even magnetize the arms to go Devilguant against hard targets, spinefists against melee ones and fleshborers for everything else. If not, buy the 5 termangaunt for 10USD packs and get your 20 infantry models for damn cheap.

Can't speak to the Hive Tyrant, although I am fond of double scythe with wings. It's classic, does well on the charge, and doesn't care as much in lower point games if the enemy engages it in melee.

 SHUPPET wrote:
If Tyranids, an underperforming tournament army, have their sole source of decent AT nerfed, then GW is more incompetent than I could imagine. There's so much imbalance in the dex, almost the entire melee portion of the Dex is useless next to Stealers. Even with Hive Guard we have serious struggles against Knights etc. I can't imagine HG will be nerfed, but then again I'm an idiot fluff author who thinks Raven Guard was OP so what do I know

I would hardly define Tyranids as "underperforming", they are about at the 20% from the top among factions, right behind soups, mono knights, mono IG and DE. If the knights get reigned in then tyranids are top table material.

At the same time, HG are clearly overperforming in the codex, they are strictly better than many other choices both in faction and out of faction, too versatile against too many targets, including vehicles which are the inbuilt design weakness of nids. I'm not saying that they will get a huge nerf, but i wouldn't be surprised in 4-5 points more on the impaler cannon, or limiting the squads to 3 models.

Spoletta wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
If Tyranids, an underperforming tournament army, have their sole source of decent AT nerfed, then GW is more incompetent than I could imagine. There's so much imbalance in the dex, almost the entire melee portion of the Dex is useless next to Stealers. Even with Hive Guard we have serious struggles against Knights etc. I can't imagine HG will be nerfed, but then again I'm an idiot fluff author who thinks Raven Guard was OP so what do I know

I would hardly define Tyranids as "underperforming", they are about at the 20% from the top among factions, right behind soups, mono knights, mono IG and DE. If the knights get reigned in then tyranids are top table material.

At the same time, HG are clearly overperforming in the codex, they are strictly better than many other choices both in faction and out of faction, too versatile against too many targets, including vehicles which are the inbuilt design weakness of nids. I'm not saying that they will get a huge nerf, but i wouldn't be surprised in 4-5 points more on the impaler cannon, or limiting the squads to 3 models.

Ugh what? To my knowledge, the only placings they made at all lately at big events was pre-GSC nerf, and not even using Hive Guard. You say top 20% of factions, but then list like the majority of the game doing better? I think only Tau and Orks are excluded from that list...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which events are you referring to where they have been performing so well?

Man I wish the wise ITC orginization at FLG could do some detailed analysis on the WR of factions. It is quite literally impossible to get a clear picture. Then again - they are playing a house ruled game and the results matter even less in terms of balance.

Nids are absolutely a strong army. They compete in every phase (movement, psychic, shooting, assault) and they are immune to leadership for the most part. Have shoot twice and fight twice stratagems. Some very efficient choices(carnifex, FHT, HG, neuro). What their weakness? Knights. What is a really popular meta choice right now (and probably OP). Knights.

All I know for my purposes - If a friend of mine asks me to bring a light army. That rules out Tyranids/eldar/DE/knights/tau. It means I should play GK or space marines without guilliman.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man I wish the wise ITC orginization at FLG could do some detailed analysis on the WR of factions. It is quite literally impossible to get a clear picture. Then again - they are playing a house ruled game and the results matter even less in terms of balance.

Nids are absolutely a strong army. They compete in every phase (movement, psychic, shooting, assault) and they are immune to leadership for the most part. Have shoot twice and fight twice stratagems. Some very efficient choices(carnifex, FHT, HG, neuro). What their weakness? Knights. What is a really popular meta choice right now (and probably OP). Knights.

All I know for my purposes - If a friend of mine asks me to bring a light army. That rules out Tyranids/eldar/DE/knights/tau. It means I should play GK or space marines without guilliman.

Light army is in your list, not the army, every codex can bring a very light list..... Even Ynnari

Nids are IMO the BEST light friendly army, b.c you can have threats that are easy to deal with (small units of Genestealers, Hormagants, Warriors, etc..)

You can have Broodlord and Prime HQ's, you dont need to take a power list for "light"

I also think nids are very good, but when talking about ITC, ITC rules dont really work well with nids or certain playstyles.army types at all, i dont really like ITC. The opponent can easily get the secondaries over you, get more kills over you, etc.. unless you take lists to deny those points, and then Nids start to become harder to play.

With no House rules, just GW rules, Ynnari/Imperial soup are just OP AF, but nids still have a chance to do well and win thanks to how easy the missions are and the missions are all that matters, no any of these 24 VP's that only 1 player can get and not the other.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
If Tyranids, an underperforming tournament army, have their sole source of decent AT nerfed, then GW is more incompetent than I could imagine. There's so much imbalance in the dex, almost the entire melee portion of the Dex is useless next to Stealers. Even with Hive Guard we have serious struggles against Knights etc. I can't imagine HG will be nerfed, but then again I'm an idiot fluff author who thinks Raven Guard was OP so what do I know

I would hardly define Tyranids as "underperforming", they are about at the 20% from the top among factions, right behind soups, mono knights, mono IG and DE. If the knights get reigned in then tyranids are top table material.

At the same time, HG are clearly overperforming in the codex, they are strictly better than many other choices both in faction and out of faction, too versatile against too many targets, including vehicles which are the inbuilt design weakness of nids. I'm not saying that they will get a huge nerf, but i wouldn't be surprised in 4-5 points more on the impaler cannon, or limiting the squads to 3 models.

Ugh what? To my knowledge, the only placings they made at all lately at big events was pre-GSC nerf, and not even using Hive Guard. You say top 20% of factions, but then list like the majority of the game doing better? I think only Tau and Orks are excluded from that list...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which events are you referring to where they have been performing so well?

I listed 3 factions in total...

When you list "soup" as one faction it's kinda disingenuous. That's every Imperium, Aeldari, and Chaos army currently seeing play (and there is multiple from each). Other than Tyranids themselves, what is left after that other than Tau and Orkz? lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Which events are you referring to where they have been performing so well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man I wish the wise ITC orginization at FLG could do some detailed analysis on the WR of factions. It is quite literally impossible to get a clear picture. Then again - they are playing a house ruled game and the results matter even less in terms of balance.

They did. Around the time of NOVA. There will be a new one out soon.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/19RmX6EUqWQDABd43HRV1wze7Bk8X1R8D/view

You have to download it, open in Excel, enable editing, then manually select each tournament to display at once in the information filter under the "Tournament" header.



Nids have 42.81% win rate as a primary faction. The changes to the game have only left them in a worse state since.

They are an underperforming Tournament army, one which that is not even approaching making top tables at significant events, nor have a high win rate. They had ONE placing in the top FIFTY at Nova, and that was number thirty-something. I'm open, in fact I encourage, evidence to disprove this. But acting as though it's a top tournament army based off our "feels" doesn't hold up at this point, and I think if we're going to claim that again we need to attach some sort of evidence.

I made a list.

C&C welcome, and sorely needed.

 SHUPPET wrote:
When you list "soup" as one faction it's kinda disingenuous. That's every Imperium, Aeldari, and Chaos army currently seeing play (and there is multiple from each). Other than Tyranids themselves, what is left after that other than Tau and Orkz? lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Which events are you referring to where they have been performing so well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man I wish the wise ITC orginization at FLG could do some detailed analysis on the WR of factions. It is quite literally impossible to get a clear picture. Then again - they are playing a house ruled game and the results matter even less in terms of balance.

They did. Around the time of NOVA. There will be a new one out soon.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/19RmX6EUqWQDABd43HRV1wze7Bk8X1R8D/view

You have to download it, open in Excel, enable editing, then manually select each tournament to display at once in the information filter under the "Tournament" header.



Nids have 42.81% win rate as a primary faction. The changes to the game have only left them in a worse state since.

They are an underperforming Tournament army, one which that is not even approaching making top tables at significant events, nor have a high win rate. They had ONE placing in the top FIFTY at Nova, and that was number thirty-something. I'm open, in fact I encourage, evidence to disprove this. But acting as though it's a top tournament army based off our "feels" doesn't hold up at this point, and I think if we're going to claim that again we need to attach some sort of evidence.

If you were to run that analysis now you would discover that no monodex is doing well. Sure, soup is better than everything we know it, but as a faction nids are just below the top ones.

Spoletta wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
When you list "soup" as one faction it's kinda disingenuous. That's every Imperium, Aeldari, and Chaos army currently seeing play (and there is multiple from each). Other than Tyranids themselves, what is left after that other than Tau and Orkz? lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Which events are you referring to where they have been performing so well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man I wish the wise ITC orginization at FLG could do some detailed analysis on the WR of factions. It is quite literally impossible to get a clear picture. Then again - they are playing a house ruled game and the results matter even less in terms of balance.

They did. Around the time of NOVA. There will be a new one out soon.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/19RmX6EUqWQDABd43HRV1wze7Bk8X1R8D/view

You have to download it, open in Excel, enable editing, then manually select each tournament to display at once in the information filter under the "Tournament" header.



Nids have 42.81% win rate as a primary faction. The changes to the game have only left them in a worse state since.

They are an underperforming Tournament army, one which that is not even approaching making top tables at significant events, nor have a high win rate. They had ONE placing in the top FIFTY at Nova, and that was number thirty-something. I'm open, in fact I encourage, evidence to disprove this. But acting as though it's a top tournament army based off our "feels" doesn't hold up at this point, and I think if we're going to claim that again we need to attach some sort of evidence.

If you were to run that analysis now you would discover that no monodex is doing well. Sure, soup is better than everything we know it, but as a faction nids are just below the top ones.

This. Game. Isn't. Mono. Dex. Restricted.


If a faction is underperforming in a setting where allies are allowed, then it's underperforming in the tournament scene.

On top of that, you are wrong. Tau has a 50% win rate. Hell you listed multiple soup ingredients that are outperforming Nids even solo.





There's no way you can spin this. Tyranids are under-performing in the tournament scene. That seems pretty apparent. 42% winrate is right next to Necrons.

And yet in this weekend alone the nids had a second place at the Socal and first place at a 67 players event. This doesn't mean that they are the top of the meta, but is hardly the behaviour of an UP faction.

Nice to hear, i'll look at those list for fun, but really it doesnt matter now till CA

Spoletta wrote:
And yet in this weekend alone the nids had a second place at the Socal and first place at a 67 players event. This doesn't mean that they are the top of the meta, but is hardly the behaviour of an UP faction.

That event hadn't taken place when I said the army was underperforming in the tournament scene, so it's difficult to take something into account when it literally hasn't happened yet.
Regardless, there's outliers for everything. A single second place at an event doesn't even out the win rate. I think someone got a 3rd place finish with Necrons at one of the events too. How would you describe Crons current performance in tournaments? Because both those armies have a similar win rate at tournament and apparently similar amounts of top table finishes too

So what would it require to make Nids more viable again? Just point drops?
And how would you make the non-viable units better? For fun I just thought about Tyrant Guard and it is not easy to make them more usefull. Lowering the points cost is not always a good idea with T5 3W 3+ models.

Kraken Tyranids won second at the SoCal Open this weekend. Anyone have the list?

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
And yet in this weekend alone the nids had a second place at the Socal and first place at a 67 players event. This doesn't mean that they are the top of the meta, but is hardly the behaviour of an UP faction.

That event hadn't taken place when I said the army was underperforming in the tournament scene, so it's difficult to take something into account when it literally hasn't happened yet.
Regardless, there's outliers for everything. A single second place at an event doesn't even out the win rate. I think someone got a 3rd place finish with Necrons at one of the events too. How would you describe Crons current performance in tournaments? Because both those armies have a similar win rate at tournament and apparently similar amounts of top table finishes too

Yeah that's a common problem with 8th. Any data you gather is going to be "old" quite fast. The meta moves quickly.

 Astmeister wrote:
So what would it require to make Nids more viable again? Just point drops?
And how would you make the non-viable units better? For fun I just thought about Tyrant Guard and it is not easy to make them more usefull. Lowering the points cost is not always a good idea with T5 3W 3+ models.

Nid troops are kind of middling. If I was only allowed to fix 3 units in the codex. It would be Hormies Termies and Warriors.
Termies - Devs should be a 3 point upgrade - not 4. They should have a 5+ save too. Flesh bore upped to 18" range.
Hormies - 5+ save.
Warriors - 3+ save with 3 point devs. Reduce costs of VC to 15.

These changes would be big.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
When you list "soup" as one faction it's kinda disingenuous. That's every Imperium, Aeldari, and Chaos army currently seeing play (and there is multiple from each). Other than Tyranids themselves, what is left after that other than Tau and Orkz? lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Which events are you referring to where they have been performing so well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man I wish the wise ITC orginization at FLG could do some detailed analysis on the WR of factions. It is quite literally impossible to get a clear picture. Then again - they are playing a house ruled game and the results matter even less in terms of balance.

They did. Around the time of NOVA. There will be a new one out soon.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/19RmX6EUqWQDABd43HRV1wze7Bk8X1R8D/view

You have to download it, open in Excel, enable editing, then manually select each tournament to display at once in the information filter under the "Tournament" header.



Nids have 42.81% win rate as a primary faction. The changes to the game have only left them in a worse state since.

They are an underperforming Tournament army, one which that is not even approaching making top tables at significant events, nor have a high win rate. They had ONE placing in the top FIFTY at Nova, and that was number thirty-something. I'm open, in fact I encourage, evidence to disprove this. But acting as though it's a top tournament army based off our "feels" doesn't hold up at this point, and I think if we're going to claim that again we need to attach some sort of evidence.

That is cool - thanks for that - but it's from august. The community needs something up to date.

 Xenomancers wrote:

That is cool - thanks for that - but it's from august. The community needs something up to date.

https://www.40kstats.com/

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

That is cool - thanks for that - but it's from august. The community needs something up to date.

https://www.40kstats.com/

This is an awesome tool - Thank you so much for linking this to me.

The list was

Battalion: Kraken
Swarmlord
3 Tyrant guard
Flyrant: MRC, Devs
Malanthrope
15 Genestealers, ST, 3 Maws
10 Hgants
10 Tgants
6 Hive Guard

Battalion: Kronos
Neuothrope
Neurothrope
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Rippers

Supreme Command, GSC
Magnus
Magnus
Primus
15 Purestrain Genestealers, ST



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I personally would have put the Hive Guard in the Kronos detachment, it seems he had a reason not to.

Most likely for Synapse and -1 to hit protection from the Malanthrope, which probably stays back with the backfield but is needed in the Kraken portion to shield Swarmlord and the Flyrant.

Interesting choice on the Tyrant Guard. I've seen them disparaged a bit here. Personally, I think they are useful if you are running Swarmlord and a Flyrant or two. Coupled with a Malanthrope, you can feel a bit more confident that you won't just be taken off the starting line on the first turn.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Most likely for Synapse and -1 to hit protection from the Malanthrope, which probably stays back with the backfield but is needed in the Kraken portion to shield Swarmlord and the Flyrant.

Interesting choice on the Tyrant Guard. I've seen them disparaged a bit here. Personally, I think they are useful if you are running Swarmlord and a Flyrant or two. Coupled with a Malanthrope, you can feel a bit more confident that you won't just be taken off the starting line on the first turn.

Yeah, i can see wanting the -1 to hit as its very good.

I would think the Tyrant guard are only there b.c of the Castellan knight, so its not 1 round off the table from it.

I can also see it bleeding away some enemy firepower. Do they shoot excessive amounts into the protected tyrant guard to get at the important stuff? Or go for the ITC points shooting at otherwise useless hormagaunts? It seems like a list made for ITC in general.

 Badablack wrote:
I can also see it bleeding away some enemy firepower. Do they shoot excessive amounts into the protected tyrant guard to get at the important stuff? Or go for the ITC points shooting at otherwise useless hormagaunts? It seems like a list made for ITC in general.

A single -1 to hit is nothing compared to a lot of the defensive buffs out there. They have no invun save. Catalyst is the only thing that can protect them more. Castellan still 1 shots the combo. With a bit of luck. cawls wrath on the gaurd volcano lance and everything else on swarmy. It's safe to say this guy did not face or lost to the first place catachan and castellan list.

While i dont agree with you, but it is true he fought against 3 Ynnari/CWE type lists, 1 CSM, and 2 SM/IG lists.

You can view it all on BCP if you paid for the app