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2019/12/12 21:49:43
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
So I remember back in the day 3 flyrants were the default must. Is that not the case anymore? I never see anyone talk about it or really on many lists.
Was excited on the new changes. Really want to run 3 flyrants with 5 Zoan and 1 Neuro (I only have 6) or 3 flyrants and 6 Carnifexes. Not sure how great it'll do though.
2019/12/13 02:35:00
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
They are a bit expensive glass cannons, and there hasn't really been much to pair that with till now, making them obvious first targets.
However, multiple Exocrines paired with Flyrants and maybe Toxicrenes and some other scary melee stuff like OOE etc, might force some difficult decisions on your opponent's side of the table allowing you to get away with more.
2019/12/13 03:12:23
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Dynas wrote: So with marine heavy meta being steathy I am looking to tailor list to either ignore cover or move within 12" to shoot.
The second issue is the AP so getting Invul saves and FnP saves seems to be the best.
Spamming units with these combos seems to be a good chance.
That makes me want to take Leviathan for 6+ FnP.
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
For invul units
Flyrant, swarmlord, Genestealers, Zoanthrope, neurothropes (smite spam). Devilgant bomb dropping within 9" and shooting twice will kill 17.5 marines on average. Since within 12" they lose stealthy.
Malanthrope for additional defense seems like a must.
Catalyst spell is a must.
What other units/strats have access to either Ignore cover, an Invul Save, or FnP save.
The Jormungandr WL trait passes out Ignore cover to everything within 3".
2019/12/13 06:16:16
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
What other units/strats have access to either Ignore cover, an Invul Save, or FnP save.
Well, for ignore cover we have Thornbacks (might be interesting with the Stranglethorn + Deathspitters loadout), Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. The Toxicrene's toxic spores ranged weapon also technically ignores cover, but with AP - it doesn't matter too much and the range is such it probably is going to be charging shortly anyway.
For invuls, you can add the Malceptor and Dimachaeron to the list, though the latter only gets it conditionally while the former has it always active.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/13 16:11:48
2019/12/13 08:12:41
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Everything that starts with "We know that swarmy + 3 GS units work and that is obvious" already means that you are not even trying.
That list used to work before SM could remove one unit and slow the other 2.
We need something different, the GS kraken bomb is a one trick pony which costs a lot of points (half your list!) and doesn't work in the present meta.
If i didn't want to have a shot at taking SM out, i had a lot more build options than just that one, which are perfectly fine against chaos, aeldari, orks or whatever, so i no longer understand this attachment to stealers. Hive guards are always nice though, now they are even cheaper.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/13 11:12:42
2019/12/13 12:31:30
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
I'm slightly puzzled by this post, because hive guard do ignore cover.
2019/12/13 13:59:27
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
He might have meant that Hive Guard don't actually ignore cover, just the bonus to saves from cover.
If a unit gets extra bonus's from cover that do not include save bonus's they still get them (i.e. eldar rangers and ravenguard's -1 to hit while in cover).
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2019/12/13 14:36:16
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
I'm slightly puzzled by this post, because hive guard do ignore cover.
I meant other than that unit. Granted my wording was rather poor. Apologies for the confusion.
Dynas wrote: So with marine heavy meta being steathy I am looking to tailor list to either ignore cover or move within 12" to shoot.
The second issue is the AP so getting Invul saves and FnP saves seems to be the best.
Spamming units with these combos seems to be a good chance.
That makes me want to take Leviathan for 6+ FnP.
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
For invul units
Flyrant, swarmlord, Genestealers, Zoanthrope, neurothropes (smite spam). Devilgant bomb dropping within 9" and shooting twice will kill 17.5 marines on average. Since within 12" they lose stealthy.
Malanthrope for additional defense seems like a must.
Catalyst spell is a must.
What other units/strats have access to either Ignore cover, an Invul Save, or FnP save.
The Jormungandr WL trait passes out Ignore cover to everything within 3".
Hmm. Could be good then with taking a Solid Warrior Fire base with a Prime as Jorm and a malanthrope to help. Catalyst on them if needed. Im still worried about the AP Hailstorm of marines though. the new Strat Unyielding chitin would definitely be a must take each turn for this detachemnt at (least in the early turns). If you take the Warlord trait then your only getting 1 adaptive Physiology. I am thinking Enhanced Resistance over Dynamic Camo since the dynamic camo gives the +1 to cover, but the Enhanced resistance has the ability to reduce 2 AP which would be better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/13 14:44:02
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Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
I'm slightly puzzled by this post, because hive guard do ignore cover.
I meant other than that unit. Granted my wording was rather poor. Apologies for the confusion.
That just leaves me even more confused. Other than what unit?
2019/12/13 19:02:17
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
So is it possible to make a nidzilla list that isn't terrible at the moment?
I've not played as tyranids since... 5th? But I've long been tempted to come back just to make a 'big'uns' list. Not necessarily all have to be Tyrant or Carnifex size, as I quite like hive guard too, but I wouldn't be wanting to use any hordes/swarms (except for the minimum needed to fill out battalions, of course, because you have to these days).
Units I would like to make use of (which turns out are mostly Heavy Support, didn't Carnifexes used to be elites at one point?)
Tyrannofex
Maybe a Trygon if I have a unit I want to bring with it
Toxicrene
Exocrine? (probably be either this or the Tyrannofex rather than both?)
Carnifex
Biovores
Venomthropes?
Zoanthropes (I always used to like these, though I believe these days what I think of as a zoan is actually the Neurothrope?)
So, Neurothrope Hive Guard
Haruspex
Hive Tyrant
...and tbh, I'd rather use Genestealers for troops, -maybe- warriors if they can be outfitted into the 'scarily killy' category, otherwise I'd just fill out minimum troops for CP. Rippers, I would assume?
There's a fair few unit options here, so hopefully something can be cobbled together, I'm just a little at a loss as to what works at the moment and what doesnt!
2019/12/14 12:30:55
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
It's not going to be super uber competitive, but you can nidzila with those models. A kronos detachment with hyve guard, biovores, neurothrope, exocrine and tyrannofex would be a good start.
I would then add a custom fleet with "Monsters advance and shoot without penalties" and put my cfexes and Tyrant there.
Warriors can be quite killy indeed, but you either go with hyve guards or killy warriors, since they require the same strat.
A trygon with murderous size is a huge beatstick, just kind of difficult to put in the same list as the other ones.
Toxicrene and haruspex are good distraction fexes these days, you can plug them in any list and use them to attract fire.
2019/12/14 13:36:47
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
I'll still play infantry heavy too with Cult allies because it's still strong in other match ups, but I think Nidzilla is the real star atm.
2019/12/15 00:08:02
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'm actually a bit curious if Tyrannocyte spam could be made to work, with their coming in under 100 points now. They don't even need to bring anything down with them, just have them act as a big, annoying, floating wall with their huge bases and relatively low cost per wound.
Now admittedly they don't get to drop on the first turn like Drop Pods, but if Infiltrators are as popular as they are around here then I'd think it safe to say they probably wouldn't have many places to land on turn 1 anyway. Also they can actually do stuff after they land. Previously I enjoyed having them run amuck in the opponent's backfield, tying up guns and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Being cheap lets them do that roll at no major loss if the opponent decided to commit resources to their removal.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/15 00:16:21
2019/12/15 02:05:39
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Am I wrong in thinking that the Acid Spray really just outshines the Fleshborer Hive completely for the Tyrannofex now?
7 auto-hitting S7/AP-1/DD3 shots seems a lot better than 20 S5/AP0/D1 shots. Even with both Scorch Bugs and Pathogenic Slime, they average the same damage against Primaris.
I guess the Fleshborer Hive doesn't degrade since it isn't tied to the user's S, and it looks like it's marginally better against chaff, but the Tyrannofex doesn't seem like a great chaff-clearing platform to begin with.
Thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/15 02:07:34
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'm actually a bit curious if Tyrannocyte spam could be made to work, with their coming in under 100 points now. They don't even need to bring anything down with them, just have them act as a big, annoying, floating wall with their huge bases and relatively low cost per wound.
Now admittedly they don't get to drop on the first turn like Drop Pods, but if Infiltrators are as popular as they are around here then I'd think it safe to say they probably wouldn't have many places to land on turn 1 anyway. Also they can actually do stuff after they land. Previously I enjoyed having them run amuck in the opponent's backfield, tying up guns and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Being cheap lets them do that roll at no major loss if the opponent decided to commit resources to their removal.
Sounds like something the Sporocyst would be better for? Though maybe you're right, though 225 pts for 3 of them is no small investment. They come with the bonus of letting 3 MC's deploy in close range I gues turn 2 I'm not ruling this one out.
catbarf wrote:Am I wrong in thinking that the Acid Spray really just outshines the Fleshborer Hive completely for the Tyrannofex now?
7 auto-hitting S7/AP-1/DD3 shots seems a lot better than 20 S5/AP0/D1 shots. Even with both Scorch Bugs and Pathogenic Slime, they average the same damage against Primaris.
I guess the Fleshborer Hive doesn't degrade since it isn't tied to the user's S, and it looks like it's marginally better against chaff, but the Tyrannofex doesn't seem like a great chaff-clearing platform to begin with.
Thoughts?
It's better not just for damage but utility too. To answer your question, yes. I'd never take the Fleshborer Hive for Scorch Bugs - though Fleshborer Termagants are looking better than ever.
2019/12/15 17:53:00
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I would then add a custom fleet with "Monsters advance and shoot without penalties" and put my cfexes and Tyrant there.
What are the major losses from using a custom fleet? I know it means no access to the fleet-specific stratagems, but how many of those are helpful in a nidzilla list?
Also, what second fleet trait would you give, along with the advance/shoot trait?
Prey Sight (+1 to hit rolls in melee for monsters) seems like it might be suitable.
Regrowth (everyone with multiple wounds gets +1 wound back at start of your turn) seems like it might be ok, but you might get limited use out of it if your enemy focuses down one monster at a time?
Cranial Channeling (Reroll one psychic test per turn (once per unit? once per turn?)) seems either really good, or just somewhat good, depending on how GWfaqs it.
I'm thinking Regrowth isn't worth it against good opponents, compared to the other options. Prey Sight would be good if I have a lot of monsters heading into melee with lots of attacks (toxicrene, carnifex), and Cranial is good for lots of psykerbugs (neurothrope, Tyrant, zoan). Tough choice.
2019/12/15 21:52:44
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Sounds like something the Sporocyst would be better for? Though maybe you're right, though 225 pts for 3 of them is no small investment. They come with the bonus of letting 3 MC's deploy in close range I gues turn 2 I'm not ruling this one out.
I'm not sure. I've generally found the Sporocyst does best on a flank attending to an objective or as an anchor to a gunline (provides duel benefit of synapse extension and minefield). What I'm thinking of is physically using the models to block enemy movement, since they have enormous bases that need to be moved around while also being relatively cheap. Plus, it is harder to outright avoid them given that they can move with fly. Also worth noting, since Tyrannocytes are dedicated transports they are exempt from the "rule of 3", so one could take 4-5 of them and have some drop empty (maybe give those ones a stronger gun) and the rest bring some sort of cargo.
Edit: Looking over chapter approved, I think I might have found something interesting. Gargoyles dropped to 5 points each. On its own that isn't a huge deal, but when you pair their Blinding Venom (-1 to hit if they score an unsaved wound in melee) and the new Membrane adaptation (-1 to hit in melee for fly) they might make for a very effective tarpit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/15 23:15:21
2019/12/16 00:40:54
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Gargoyles are great paired up with a lictor who can soak overwatch, give them reroll's to charge, and the new trait yes. Way better than horms (cept that they aren't troops).
Bit light on CP, but you should easily be able to go second, survive a beating as The warriors, sitting in cover will have a 3+/6+++ and ignore -1/-2 AP and have -1 to hit on them from the mananthrope, so I don't see them dying easily. Then just make your opponent cry as he tries to remove 60 gargoyles that charge into him and he has to swing back at them with -2/-3 to hit.
along with 5 denies up front from the tyrants, and the kronos strat from the mines that the biovores are dropping you should shut out the psychic phase as well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/16 01:08:45
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2019/12/22 12:11:30
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
And almost tabled him. However, he warns that he got T1 and the opponent came to him (underestimating his firepower) and he has a good deployment zone. He doesn't think it wouldn't have been that good if a result without both of these conditions.
It seems like an usual IH list (without flyer though) and I'm quite happy the tyranids got the upper hand by outshooting it
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/22 12:12:04
They aren't exactly good, but they are cheap fast attack slots if your taking a brigade.
Now the forgeworld spores that are 2 wounds each are quite good if used properly.
I take a unit in my tournament list. Make them kraken and if you get the first turn you get to surprise nuke something, possibly sniping off characters or crippling a vehicle.
They deploy up to 9" away at the beginning of the turn 1. Even with a 3" move, you can advance them 8-9", then metabolic overdrive them another 8-9" into position to blow up on something. They don't care about screens since they have fly and are small.
A unit of 9 does on average 17.5 mortal wounds if they all get in range.
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2019/12/22 23:37:51
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
The Broodlord hits in CC and also is as good at casting as a Neurothrope with Resonance Barb on for just a handful of points.
I’d want a Malanthrope on there with triple Exocrine and already paying for Venomthrope, is sawap that around for sure, but maybe not legal where he is.
2019/12/23 18:12:48
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
What hive fleet did he take? Im assuming its all kronos based on the list. Looks like he gave up WLT for 2x ignore ap and assuming he took Resonance Barb on Broodlord.
Agree malanthrope for sure.
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Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
Interesting list for sure. I was thinking to build a list in the same general direction (atm painting up my Heirodule). Wouldn't a Custom Hive Fleet be better then Kraken? For example the +1 to hit in CC and Advance+ shoot out perhaps Feeding Frenzy?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/23 19:27:30
Yes he was playing Chronos but didn't explain why he took the broodlord though. He told they the -1 to be wounded stratagem and -1 to be hit together were quite strong
I’m thinking a Kraken Swarmstealers list could benefit from a deployed Lictor or two to OA & prevent overwatch.
Played doubles yesterday, my abshemoth & a friend’s Kraken. Our first turn charge took such heavy OW casualties that we had to use 5CP for the genestealers to get the unit kills we were fishing for
lindsay40k wrote: I’m thinking a Kraken Swarmstealers list could benefit from a deployed Lictor or two to OA & prevent overwatch.
Played doubles yesterday, my abshemoth & a friend’s Kraken. Our first turn charge took such heavy OW casualties that we had to use 5CP for the genestealers to get the unit kills we were fishing for
Kraken Stealers aren't what they used to be anymore...I'd honestly go for Behemoth deepstriking things + Kronos firebase nowadays
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/24 16:34:44
2019/12/24 14:00:11
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
lindsay40k wrote: I’m thinking a Kraken Swarmstealers list could benefit from a deployed Lictor or two to OA & prevent overwatch.
Played doubles yesterday, my abshemoth & a friend’s Kraken. Our first turn charge took such heavy OW casualties that we had to use 5CP for the genestealers to get the unit kills we were fishing for
Kraken Stealers are what they used to be anymore...I'd honestly go for Behemoth deepstriking things + Kronos firebase nowadays
Why? I think one unit with swarmy and then the Lictor to soak up the overwatch first is great. WIth the ignore overwatch unit/trick in the lictor it finally makes them viable. Just need to hide out of LoS on deployment incase you don't get first turn. Other thought was to DS them in the tunnels and just use Swarmy in shooting phase to get them in.
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