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Really hard to tell.

There has been no meta until now. The last one shattered when the marine doctrines were nerfed, which had huge impacts. Yet, thanks to a certain virus there has been no meaningful data in the last months, so we don't know what a typical opponent list looks like.

IH are probably gone. Flyer spam is gone. Disintegrator spam is gone. Orks have lost the Mek Guns and the SAG. IG lists can no longer easily combine specialist detachments. TS soup is gone. Possessed bomb is gone. Tau castles have been killed by 15 point drones and no fly fallback.

At the same time, single shot multi damage weapons have seen a small decrease in cost.

It's a whole new world out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing that I really really really hate are those melta marines at 40 points. They will shape the meta.

Hive guards only increased 7 points. They will be very good with more line of sight blocking.

If we can smite more then once zoanthropes seems good at 45 points.

Rippers for grabing objectives. (Although they lack the infantery keyword.)

Tyranofex acid sprays.

Biovore movement blocking.

Perhaps warriors and ravaners.

The Exocrine also only went up by 15, so it still is very much on play.

 Niiai wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.

To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.

Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.

Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.

Seems a little odd that he has normal talons and not the massive ones. That strat seems almost mandatory to use.

No problems with you being harsh. I get that none of the choices are good. I’m OK making bad decisions, I just want them to be well researched and with my eyes open to the options.

But I love the look the the snake nids, so I’m going to be including him. Finished the biovores and spore mines, so it was time to grab the next thing on the list.

 Tyran wrote:
The Exocrine also only went up by 15, so it still is very much on play.

I agree, I feel like the list building will start with three Kronos Exocrines and a Neurothrope with Symbiostorm.

Spoletta wrote:
Tervigon 200 +38

What the... ?

Spoletta wrote:
Hormagaunt 6 +1

Seriously?

Spoletta wrote:
Hyve Guard 40 +22

They were already expensive. Does this price now include their guns?

Spoletta wrote:
Ravener 22 +4

Oh good. GW has stopped Ravener spam armies...

Spoletta wrote:
Carnifex 80 +13

Rhinos are tougher, but let's put the 'Fex's points up.

Spoletta wrote:
Mawloc 125 +21

You've got to be joking...

Spoletta wrote:
Trygon 120 +12
Trygon Prime 160 +22

And still T6...

Spoletta wrote:
Harpy 125 +20
Hyve crone 155 +20

The scourge of the skies has finally been stopped... x2

Spoletta wrote:
Monstrous Scything Talons (Cfex)15 +1

The weapon with virtually no purpose gets even more expensive. Yay!

The impaler cannon went down in points. Read more closly.

I watched a test play on you-tube that was Nids vs space wolves. Nids lost but the Haru was the MVP. I believe that some newish strats were the reason. Have to try out new tactics for the new rule set. The center of the board is much more critical with the new missions, and Nids do grab and hold pretty well. The edge of the board is closer to the center so reserve tricks might prove useful as well. I am willing to see if a Big momma bug and a swarm of Termies can grab and hold the center, while MSU Stealers can do secondaries.....

Did fw prices show up?

Ignoring other armies changes, My preliminary thoughts on what is good for US: Mid range infantry is best now. Warriors and Hive Guard. Damn, I didn’t want to bother painting up warriors but they will be one of the better things we do now. Min size Gargoyle and Hormagant tarpits are looking better than ever too with a smaller percentage increase than Termagants, less overwatch in the game, and Fly units not being able to fallback and shoot if tagged, but still might not be enough to justify them. Min size helps them dodge blast and still spread ground through coherency changes though, and a good Nid list probably not too scared of morale. the Exocrine did not go up too much and is just too good at dealing with Primaris to be left at home. Neurothropes are still our best HQ. Malanthrope is only gonna be playable with monsters, but Venoms will be great. A tankier, ground control style of play will with throwaway gribblies will probably push its way to the top of the pack for us, as such Maleceptor should definitely be considered. Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard is also a real consideration now too!


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Just my thoughts. But anyone STILL running Genestealers, this was GW saying “dude. NOW will you give up?”

I like the idea of outflanking an acidfex, mainly cos it feels cool. Definitely agree with the continued support for the exocrine as well.

I'll probably experiment with various tyrant configurations as well

Did Tyrant Guard get anything in Baal? I like the idea of Tyrant/Swarm and bodyguard pushing into the middle just not sure if it's worth it.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

Spoiler:

Ignoring other armies changes, My preliminary thoughts on what is good for US: Mid range infantry is best now. Warriors and Hive Guard. Damn, I didn’t want to bother painting up warriors but they will be one of the better things we do now. Min size Gargoyle and Hormagant tarpits are looking better than ever too with a smaller percentage increase than Termagants, less overwatch in the game, and Fly units not being able to fallback and shoot if tagged, but still might not be enough to justify them. Min size helps them dodge blast and still spread ground through coherency changes though, and a good Nid list probably not too scared of morale. the Exocrine did not go up too much and is just too good at dealing with Primaris to be left at home. Neurothropes are still our best HQ. Malanthrope is only gonna be playable with monsters, but Venoms will be great. A tankier, ground control style of play will with throwaway gribblies will probably push its way to the top of the pack for us, as such Maleceptor should definitely be considered. Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard is also a real consideration now too!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just my thoughts. But anyone STILL running Genestealers, this was GW saying “dude. NOW will you give up?”

You think Tyrant guards gods got better?

It is also time to test out ravaners instad of genestealers I think.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Ignoring other armies changes, My preliminary thoughts on what is good for US: Mid range infantry is best now. Warriors and Hive Guard. Damn, I didn’t want to bother painting up warriors but they will be one of the better things we do now.

Warriors went up 3 points base, then the most common loadout, Swords + Spitter, went up another 1+1. So you go up from 25 to 30. A 20% increase, far above the average. Spamming 5-man Leviathan/Jormungandr Warrior units might still be the best we can do when it comes to troops.
Raveners up 4ppm or 22.2%, not a good look for a unit in t-shirts, in a game where you need your army to survive to win.

Wow there horsy! From the faq.

*Page 88 – Old One Eye, Alpha Leader
Add the following to the end of this ability:
‘In addition, while any other friendly <Hive Fleet> Carnifex
units are within 3” of this model, enemy models cannot target
this model with ranged attacks.’

Old One Eye gives Snipers that empty stare and he becomes immune

Any word on FW unit costs?

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Ignoring other armies changes, My preliminary thoughts on what is good for US: Mid range infantry is best now. Warriors and Hive Guard. Damn, I didn’t want to bother painting up warriors but they will be one of the better things we do now.

Warriors went up 3 points base, then the most common loadout, Swords + Spitter, went up another 1+1. So you go up from 25 to 30. A 20% increase, far above the average. Spamming 5-man Leviathan/Jormungandr Warrior units might still be the best we can do when it comes to troops.
Raveners up 4ppm or 22.2%, not a good look for a unit in t-shirts, in a game where you need your army to survive to win.

Didn’t see the wargear cost. Yeah that’s probably a bit too pricey for Tyranid Warriors.

Tyrant Guard didn’t go up by much as far as I can tell and I think would go well with a Swarmlord in this sort of list. But the idea of a warrior list may not be that great.


As a big Nidzilla player Im skeptical about Nidzilla and monster heavy play, when the most popular unit in the most popular army is almost definitely going to be a 24” range Assault melta unit. I don’t really see how we can perform in that meta, and trying to guard them with a Malanthrope or whatever just means 30” range on the melta since they can now run and gun without further penalty. Tyrannofex outflanking will be the only real option for them because they definitely can’t run up the board now. Hordes and auras may be impacted by coherency and blasts, but I think life is still gonna be worse for monsters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again infantry got such a price hike that it’s also not pretty.

I’ll probably stick with some big bugs. It’s what I’ve done so far. But I don’t know if bubbling around a Malanthrope is gonna cut it anymore. Dermic Exocrines, and outflanking Tyrannofex are probably the mainstays. Footslogging Dakkafex are just gonna pop like balloons :( even with the price hike, board control with either gaunts or Warriors may be the way forward

Now that the equip of the warrior is a significant part of it's cost (9/30) I will try to run double Scythal warriors to be my "Hold this point" units. A 5 bug unit is 105 points and with a CP for the -1 damage, it can take quite a lot of beating.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Any word on FW unit costs?

Here are the FW points:

 Nevelon wrote:

Spoiler:

 Niiai wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.

To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.

Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.

Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.

Seems a little odd that he has normal talons and not the massive ones. That strat seems almost mandatory to use.

No problems with you being harsh. I get that none of the choices are good. I’m OK making bad decisions, I just want them to be well researched and with my eyes open to the options.

But I love the look the the snake nids, so I’m going to be including him. Finished the biovores and spore mines, so it was time to grab the next thing on the list.

Spoiler:

So it is fairly easy to drop a big magnet in the neck of the trygon body and do both the Mawlock and trygon heads. You can put the three biggest sets of talons on there and swap out heads depending on which one you want to use.

babelfish wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Spoiler:

 Niiai wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.

To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.

Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.

Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.

Seems a little odd that he has normal talons and not the massive ones. That strat seems almost mandatory to use.

No problems with you being harsh. I get that none of the choices are good. I’m OK making bad decisions, I just want them to be well researched and with my eyes open to the options.

But I love the look the the snake nids, so I’m going to be including him. Finished the biovores and spore mines, so it was time to grab the next thing on the list.

Spoiler:

So it is fairly easy to drop a big magnet in the neck of the trygon body and do both the Mawlock and trygon heads. You can put the three biggest sets of talons on there and swap out heads depending on which one you want to use.

WHAT? Wasn't easier to just buy 7 and end up with 1 prime, 3 trygons and 3 mawlocs?


.....asking for a friend, of course...

babelfish wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Spoiler:

 Niiai wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.

To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.

Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.

Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.

Seems a little odd that he has normal talons and not the massive ones. That strat seems almost mandatory to use.

No problems with you being harsh. I get that none of the choices are good. I’m OK making bad decisions, I just want them to be well researched and with my eyes open to the options.

But I love the look the the snake nids, so I’m going to be including him. Finished the biovores and spore mines, so it was time to grab the next thing on the list.

Spoiler:

So it is fairly easy to drop a big magnet in the neck of the trygon body and do both the Mawlock and trygon heads. You can put the three biggest sets of talons on there and swap out heads depending on which one you want to use.

I magnetised the whole model tail all 6 talons and all the head parts. I find the tyranids easy to magnetise

Warriors at 24, deathspitters at 6, barbed strangler at 10, venom cannon at 15, boneswords at 3.

Min naked squad (double scything talon) is 72 points. 5 are 120. Maxed at 9 is 216.

Deathspitters + talons are 90, 150, and 270.

Swords and deathspitters are 99, 165, 297.

Deathspitters and barbed stranglers (w/talons) are 94 per three models. Swords bring that up to 103. Venom cannons instead of stranglers are 99/108 per 3 man.

At only being a point more expensive that rending claws, I think if you are putting a CC weapon on them, Warriors still like boneswords best. I don't mind swapping them down to trim the odd point if needed.

Maxed out they get the most benefit out of adaptions but are of course taking extra hits from blast. Running max squads with improved durability from adaptions + malanthrope and a prime feels less attractive now. It was never amazing but had potential.

MSU is likely the way to go with them. With smaller board size, more terrain benefits, and center control all being more important, I can see running a big pile of 3-4 man squads with just about any loadout. 6 broods of three with v cannons, spitters, and swords is 660 points. Swapping for stranglers brings it down to 620, dropping the cannons entirley brings it to just under 600. The units take up space, can do some damage, and they can melta them all day long if they want to. They also don't mind dedicating a turn to standing around scoring a secondary instead of being useful, because each squad doesn't do all that much in the first place. Not amazing, but playable I think.

Impaler Hive Guard at 50 is strong. Right now as best I can tell they don't ignore -1 to hit from cover but they do ignore improved saves. FAQ might change that, I'm not holding my breath. With impalers being heavy, there will be the occasional moment were the lack of stacking -1's let you move them for a better shot without penalty. Not going to be super common because of 36" range. 250 for a five man is decent enough.

Exocrine at 170, sure. Still going to be a staple, with dermic and maybe a malanthrope.

Neurothrope at 95, not a big deal. Gets a bit of a bonus from the casting based secondaries.

Rippers up by 1. Deep strike plus short model for hiding behind things and scoring is worth the point.

Termagaunts up by 1, lol. 270 for max devilgaunts. Outflanking probably makes them worth it. I'm a huge fan of the unit, so maybe rose colored glasses here.

Zoanthropes at 45. If double smite doesn't get faq'd away then lol indeed. 225 for 5, 270 for 6, double smiting at 24" range. Walk a Neurothrope up with them to reroll 1's and toss out an additional smite or shriek. If you keep the units positioned so that the smites land on the same target, two broods could do 12+4d3 mortals. That's non-trivial.

babelfish wrote:So it is fairly easy to drop a big magnet in the neck of the trygon body and do both the Mawlock and trygon heads. You can put the three biggest sets of talons on there and swap out heads depending on which one you want to use.

topaxygouroun i wrote:WHAT? Wasn't easier to just buy 7 and end up with 1 prime, 3 trygons and 3 mawlocs?


.....asking for a friend, of course...

nordsturmking wrote:I magnetised the whole model tail all 6 talons and all the head parts. I find the tyranids easy to magnetise

Heh. If I end up with 7 of these guys, something has gone horribly wrong. But that’s just me. At least with Tyranids there is no wrong answer for how many of something you can own. I’ve got more Ultramarine Captains then there are companies to lead. The Codex does not approve this action.

I’m no stanger to magnets, and might go down that path. I’ve not built any of the big bugs yet, so didn’t know how hard they would be to set up. And they would be the ones I’d bother with.

On the topic of warriors:
In a world where people are gearing up to take down primaris, how long do they last on the table? Just looking at them on paper, the struck me as beefy enough for all the nasty weapons to get their value in, but still soft enough that even basic small arms could mow them down. They are more dense then a carpet of gribblies, which has some perks, but more expensive per wound.

2 damage weapons are 'everywhere' as people want to kill primaris marines. (Not in my personal meta, but according to the web.) 3 wound warriors means a 2 damage weapon overkills them on 3 wounds. That is quite good. It is also a lot , 27, of wounds in a units that is under 10 models.

I usualy play an ork. And leviathan 6+++ really muchs up his 3 damage rockets and other weapons. Really great.

 Nevelon wrote:

On the topic of warriors:
In a world where people are gearing up to take down primaris, how long do they last on the table? Just looking at them on paper, the struck me as beefy enough for all the nasty weapons to get their value in, but still soft enough that even basic small arms could mow them down. They are more dense then a carpet of gribblies, which has some perks, but more expensive per wound.

The ignore AP -1 and -2 adaptive physiology makes them very tanky.
Last week I played a squad of 9 in a game. I had that adaptive physiology, hive fleet Jormungandr for the cover save, a Malanthrope, and the -1 damage stratagem.
With all that it took the full firepower of three knight crusaders, and a squad of 6 locked kastellan robots to take that squad out.

I would have actually had a couple left over even, but I erred and took the malanthrope out of range when there were 4 left (dumb mistake, but it had been a long day).
Would have been much better if I'd had a chance to put catalyst on them too.

Stack enough buffs on them, and killing them with shooting becomes very difficult. They're quite a lot more vulnerable in melee though, as most of their defensive buffs don't work there.

Warriors can be good if you cater them. Warrior alpha can make them hit on 2 and 3.

Problem is they are really poor vs armoued things. The venom cannon is svingy in shots and damage and the bellcurve can swing bad the first two turns it is a disaster.

The heavy bolter shots and bone swords are reliable enough vs infatery.

I have not seen 9th edition rules enough, in 8th you hsd this trick. 2 to 3 lash whip and boneswords can be a bit of a combo. If you remove them to combat losses and do not pile in to range of your opponents models you can attack with the once who are in base to the lash whip bonesword models. Attack back. Your rurn: Now you can move and shoot. Charge if you want to.

Remember they pile in towards the closest enemy model. And that is your dead but not forgotten lash whip warrior.

Look out for dreadnought type opponents. High thoughnes with a x2 power, multi ap multi damage weapon in melee.

Warriors also unlock the infatery unit shoots x2 stratagem. (And fight twice stratagem.)

 nordsturmking wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Any word on FW unit costs?

Here are the FW points:

Spoiler:

Wait, wait, wait...

They went up? They went up??? The Scythed Hierodule was 410 yet is now 470??? Unless there's meant to be a 0 in that column there, that's just insane!!!

No, you are just insane. The Scythed Hierodule is now 410.

The sky is faling and everybody runs around like headless chickens.

The Scythe Hirodule went up 60 points. But its two massive scything tallons went down 60 points. 410 + 60 - 60... Math checks out to 410.