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We dont have any real clue as to the direction that GW is gonna take nids with their 9th codex, but if we look at the FW compendium, they could be trying to actually make nids more hoardy.

On the flip side, they could tune up some units like they have been doing with marines and necrons.

My best guess is to expect the big bugs to get upgraded (for an additional points cost of course), and our small bugs mabey getting 1 or 2 pts cheaper. Genestealers could possibly go up to 2 wounds, and im expecting warriors to possibly go up in str and/or toughness.



As for directly atm, nids still have alot going for them. The codex itself is on the weaker end, but we do have a few fairly good units to leverage with, and alot of fearless obsec (which is very good to have in 9th). There are alot of secondaries that nids are quite good at scoring, so we ended up staying fairly competitive, even if we cant kill as much or last the whole 5 turns of the game.

Expect to make alot of points, then get wiped out towards the end.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
We dont have any real clue as to the direction that GW is gonna take nids with their 9th codex, but if we look at the FW compendium, they could be trying to actually make nids more hoardy.

On the flip side, they could tune up some units like they have been doing with marines and necrons.

My best guess is to expect the big bugs to get upgraded (for an additional points cost of course), and our small bugs mabey getting 1 or 2 pts cheaper. Genestealers could possibly go up to 2 wounds, and im expecting warriors to possibly go up in str and/or toughness.



As for directly atm, nids still have alot going for them. The codex itself is on the weaker end, but we do have a few fairly good units to leverage with, and alot of fearless obsec (which is very good to have in 9th). There are alot of secondaries that nids are quite good at scoring, so we ended up staying fairly competitive, even if we cant kill as much or last the whole 5 turns of the game.

Expect to make alot of points, then get wiped out towards the end.

I think it is highly unlikely that gaunts go down in points, 9th was all about less hoards, a U turn on this would be strange

The swarm of little gribbles carpeting the table, backed up but a few big bugs, is an iconic vision of the Tyranids at war. While they often fail, GW tries to make it so you can play your army like it should. Things like the Core tag, and moving SM scouts out of troops show that this is still a thing they think about.

Now don’t get me wrong, GW does not do a great job actually executing on their vision. But they do occasionally make it happen.

I’d not hold my breath, but I’d not give up hope.

Would this be a descent way to kitbash a Hierodule? I want a second opinion before I even consider purchasing the parts.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/794041.page

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am debating on starting a new army. In my area there are no Tyranids and that seems odd to me. I have always thought of getting into Nids but for whatever reason always talked myself out of it.

What do the bugs have going for them in 9th?

Keep in mind their codex isn't out yet, so a lot can change. At the moment they're lacking attack numbers and AP on some things... and points need to be adjusted, but they're a fun army you wont be bored with. They're one of the few armies you can build any playstyle you'd like and it'll all do reliably well and feel thematic. You want an all shooting, melee or psychic army? You can do any. All flying? All underground? Horde? Giant monsters? Some combination of any of these or all of these? Tyranids can do it.

Keramory wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am debating on starting a new army. In my area there are no Tyranids and that seems odd to me. I have always thought of getting into Nids but for whatever reason always talked myself out of it.

What do the bugs have going for them in 9th?

Keep in mind their codex isn't out yet, so a lot can change. At the moment they're lacking attack numbers and AP on some things... and points need to be adjusted, but they're a fun army you wont be bored with. They're one of the few armies you can build any playstyle you'd like and it'll all do reliably well and feel thematic. You want an all shooting, melee or psychic army? You can do any. All flying? All underground? Horde? Giant monsters? Some combination of any of these or all of these? Tyranids can do it.

I think I can agree with you that Nids can do all of those, but definitely not all of those *reliably well*. I think until the FW Compendium update, an all-melee army would've been pants. With Dimas and 'Dules, you could make it work (Nitro Zeus's list a couple pages back looks really good to me for being most/all melee). Same thing with all underground, or all flying... can't see either of those doing well. But yeah, to your point, Nids have the variety to pull it off if you are okay with being subpar.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am debating on starting a new army. In my area there are no Tyranids and that seems odd to me. I have always thought of getting into Nids but for whatever reason always talked myself out of it.

What do the bugs have going for them in 9th?

 Eihnlazer wrote:

As for directly atm, nids still have alot going for them. The codex itself is on the weaker end, but we do have a few fairly good units to leverage with, and alot of fearless obsec (which is very good to have in 9th). There are alot of secondaries that nids are quite good at scoring, so we ended up staying fairly competitive, even if we cant kill as much or last the whole 5 turns of the game.

Expect to make alot of points, then get wiped out towards the end.

I recently bumped into this guy's battle reports (he has 5-6 at the moment) https://www.reddit.com/user/Stormcoil/posts/ , which demonstrates a lot of Eihnlazer's answers, and it's a good read as he debates and explains his list-building and tactical choices very well. Even if his list is not your style there's a lot to learn in how to play the game, how to use some units, how to choose the right tools for the right jobs.

In particular he very effectively uses Lictors, Mawlocs & Rippers for guaranteed Deploy Scramblers, easy Lineabreaker/EoaF and objective taking/denying.

Several of his wins stem from a constant focus on point scoring&denying, board control, screening for enemy reserves etc, for which nids have indeed very good tools if you don't let yourself be sidetracked into killing stuff for the sake of killing stuff.

A highly recommend read.

Any thoughts on mass genestealers - Only because there are a lot of them available to my son (40+ stealers at last count) with Swarmy and a Broodlord?

Any other units which can synergise with such a horde which a limited budget can buy?

He'll mainly be playing against me and a few friends with 1000 to 1500pts non competitive marines in Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ork Flavours.

I have 60 genstealers. 40 Nids and 20 GSC. Stealers where good in 8th edition. In 9th edition they got far far faaaaaar worse. I would recoment big squads of them at the very least.

- They went up in points.
- They are super fragile, especially vs blast and flamers.
- 9th edition is about holding points. And genestealers want to keep moving moving moving.
- Overwtach is harsh vs them.
- One of the way you keep them alive is to 'tripod' an opponent you fight, meaning they can not fall back and shoot your GS. But a stratagem in 9th (break out?) prevents this.
- One of the things that made them so strong in 9th was the abilaty of declaring 2 charges, kill one of them. Use the move instead of cosolidate strat and the fight again strat to kill 2 units in melee. The way you need to make all your charges makes this dificult in 9th edition to say the least.

Bolters are very strong vs them. SW and Dark Angels will eat them up to breakfast.

My main opponent is an Ork. 8 point boys is about as strong as a 15 point genstealer,s although a bit slower. But with da jump and re-rolling charges they can really get to charge. If genestealers attack them, they often die to overwtach.

Sorry for the negative adetude. I just do not like them any more. If you do run them swarlord and kraken are very strong for them. Further the new terain rules should be good for them.

It was a good strategy in 8th edtion. Everybody who did it in 8th atemted it in 9th and it is much much worse.

Nah that’s a pretty fair response on why Stealers aren’t they good. They aren’t awful in smaller squads. But they aren’t necessary either at all

I have been meaning to try Stealers in MSU, but my health has been very poor. But I don't know that they are terri-bad... Yet! But try several small squads of stealers and Broodlord commanders, and you can likely find them useful. Oh...MSU means Multiple Small Units.

Yeah, really it was the change to mission design that dramatically reduced the utility of the Genestealer bomb. If anything, the reduction in Overwatch helped them; but the addition of Blast and the points hike were damaging. I do think there are uses for them; small units taken in strategic reserves, or brought in by Lictors or Trygons, can do a disproportionate amount of damage. You just don't want a unit of 20 hoofing it across the board.

Re: FW books, given the lack of massive design changes I don't expect any radical overhauls.

And to be honest, I don't think our army needs radical overhauls. We're not fundamentally flawed like Tau and Guard are, nor are we constrained to one or two builds. The army just underperforms a bit as a whole.

So what I'm hoping for is, in addition to tweaks to the units that need it, some form of army-wide rule that can give the solid boost we need. Something like Synapse conferring a FNP, or army-wide adaptations that can be picked before the battle. Just a tweak to boost the army overall, as they did with Bolter Discipline and Doctrines for Marines.

What I'm expecting is some considerable rework is to our army wide rules, starting with the introduction of a Doctrines/Command Protocols equivalent, but also reworks to our Hive Fleet Adaptations, Warlord Traits, Stratagems (particularly the attack twice ones are going to be extremely nerfed), Adaptive Physiology, and of course the introduction of Crusade rules and Secondary Objectives. There are a lot of army wide rules in a 9th edition Codex.

But the actual unit datasheets? I'm expecting is Harpies and Hive Crones getting Aircraft rules, some weapons' reworks to improve the damage output (Hive Guard will need as they will lose firing twice) and hopefully some HQ slot shenanigans because that role is quite crowed for us.

Oh and of course basic infantry getting Core and the Swarmlord getting Supreme Commander.

Nids on the whole suffer from having a combination of bad issues.

No great access to reliable rerolls.

Very few units which produce damage are durable. The ones that are are limited and expensive.

Diminish returns on psychic powers / no signature awesome power. Best nid ability is tied to swarmlord.- (swarm commander)..who apart from being good in melee is gutter trash otherwise. The ability also comes with a weak disadvantage of (instead of shooting).

Low armor saves on horde units with t3 - bad stats - and bad weapons (AKA the worse possible units) and they aren't even cheaper than gaurdsmen.

Inspite of all these issues I still managed pretty well with them in 8th. The biggest issue they have now is - not even their PA stepped them up much. The nid PA was an absolute joke and whoever glanced it over and said...thatll do...that person deserves a kick directly in the crotch. it is so hive fleet dependent you can't get anything done with it. You are still better off just running pure levi for the 6+ FNP bonus.

Pretty much -spam carnifex tyrants and hive guard. Maybe a gant bomb from a trygon (sucks it does 0 damage to a custodian unit most the time) . Maybe exocrine (a little better now that you don't get a -1 for move and shoot plus the PA stratagem)

Predictions:

1. GW incorporates everything from Blood of Baal into the new 'Dex, except Dermic Symbiosis.
2. Exocrines lose their strat to move and fire.
3. Hive Guard get nerfed.
4. Carnifexes lose a wound and go up by 50 points.



As you might guess, I have zero faith in GW getting our next book right.

 Niiai wrote:
I have 60 genstealers. 40 Nids and 20 GSC. Stealers where good in 8th edition. In 9th edition they got far far faaaaaar worse. I would recoment big squads of them at the very least.

- They went up in points.
- They are super fragile, especially vs blast and flamers.
- 9th edition is about holding points. And genestealers want to keep moving moving moving.
- Overwtach is harsh vs them.
- One of the way you keep them alive is to 'tripod' an opponent you fight, meaning they can not fall back and shoot your GS. But a stratagem in 9th (break out?) prevents this.
- One of the things that made them so strong in 9th was the abilaty of declaring 2 charges, kill one of them. Use the move instead of cosolidate strat and the fight again strat to kill 2 units in melee. The way you need to make all your charges makes this dificult in 9th edition to say the least.

Bolters are very strong vs them. SW and Dark Angels will eat them up to breakfast.

My main opponent is an Ork. 8 point boys is about as strong as a 15 point genstealer,s although a bit slower. But with da jump and re-rolling charges they can really get to charge. If genestealers attack them, they often die to overwtach.

Sorry for the negative adetude. I just do not like them any more. If you do run them swarlord and kraken are very strong for them. Further the new terain rules should be good for them.

It was a good strategy in 8th edtion. Everybody who did it in 8th atemted it in 9th and it is much much worse.

Actually, in the modern meta they have a surprisingly useful role.

Some of has could have forgot it, but they have the infestation nodes, which are really good now.

The current meta is made by mostly assault units plus a firebase based on high quality shots. Being able to counterpunch such lists from a point is as necessary now as it was to one round a knight in 8th. You place stealer nodes close (but not too close) to your objectives, so that when they bum rush those objectives, you countercharge on your turn with an easy charge (no limitation of 9" on getting out from a node). Stealers are deadly enough for the job, and even if something survives they are obsec.

You have to use them as a defensive unit more than a shock assault one.

What do you mean no limitation of gettin within 9 from a node? I might misunderdstand you, but it sounds like you are using them wrong. Or are you talking about daisy chaining 6" out? (Putting the node between 8,9 and 6 from the enemy?)

It's one of the few ways of being placed on the table that doesn't require keeping the arriving unit outside of 9"' of enemies.

Bit tricky though as the node gets removed if enemies are within 9 of it. Placing it the way Spoletta describes sounds quite interesting.

Niiai wrote:What do you mean no limitation of gettin within 9 from a node? I might misunderdstand you, but it sounds like you are using them wrong. Or are you talking about daisy chaining 6" out? (Putting the node between 8,9 and 6 from the enemy?)

As in: the genestealers can be deployed via node (within 6" of it) without the limitation of having to deploy 9" away from enemies.

Eldarain wrote:It's one of the few ways of being placed on the table that doesn't require keeping the arriving unit outside of 9"' of enemies.

Bit tricky though as the node gets removed if enemies are within 9 of it. Placing it the way Spoletta describes sounds quite interesting.

Indeed. They're free and no one uses them, so why not? Put them 12"-ish from board edges to prevent destruction from outflankers (can't do much about DS), and you'll probably be able to deploy in a decently easy charge range. Keep one node in a safe area to avoid losing your unit if the others fail.

One problem with infestation nodes (other than them getting destroyed if all the nodes are) is that they are subject to normal reserve rules - no coming on before t2. Which is really frustrating when you need them to clear an obj when your opponent gets t1. I think if it weren't for that the nodes would have play.

They got our 8th dex right, until the FAQ a few days later nerfed half of it to uselessness.

Im expecting them to fix a few things and introduce some new kits.

Shrikes are gone from forgeworld, and not in legends, so my fingers are crossed they just allow warriors to take wings and give them either str5 or T5.

Genestealers either need a points drop (down to 12) or they need to go to 17pts and gain a wound. Either way fixes them.

They wont drop termigants points down, but horms might drop to 6 or 7 as 8pts is too much for a t3/6+ model that cant advance and charge and only has 2 str3 attacks.

Im hoping big bugs get some love, either with more wounds for free, a toughness increase, or become cheaper.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They got our 8th dex right, until the FAQ a few days later nerfed half of it to uselessness.

Im expecting them to fix a few things and introduce some new kits.

Shrikes are gone from forgeworld, and not in legends, so my fingers are crossed they just allow warriors to take wings and give them either str5 or T5.

Genestealers either need a points drop (down to 12) or they need to go to 17pts and gain a wound. Either way fixes them.

They wont drop termigants points down, but horms might drop to 6 or 7 as 8pts is too much for a t3/6+ model that cant advance and charge and only has 2 str3 attacks.

Im hoping big bugs get some love, either with more wounds for free, a toughness increase, or become cheaper.

Aren't Hormagaunts 6pts now?

mabey, for some reason i was thinking they were 8.

Horms may be listed at 6ppm, but it's actually 7 because of mandatory adrenal glands. And in Marine heavy metas toxin makes them less bad. So 9ppm for a s3 t3 model that in a unit of 20 can maybe kill 1 marine per game.

A... what?

Sorry but neither adrenal glands nor toxin sacs are worth it, so I don't see how they are "mandatory".

StarHunter25 wrote:
Horms may be listed at 6ppm, but it's actually 7 because of mandatory adrenal glands. And in Marine heavy metas toxin makes them less bad. So 9ppm for a s3 t3 model that in a unit of 20 can maybe kill 1 marine per game.

Well, then don't do that. I mean, you're taking a 6ppm horde unit, increasing it to 9ppm without increasing its durability and only marginally increasing its offensive output, and then complaining that they're too expensive. Toxin Sacs in particular are a lot of points for an upgrade that, if you're resolving damage allocation correctly (randomized), wastes wounds on overkill half the time.

Bare Hormagaunts are a little tougher to get into melee, but have better damage output for the cost and drastically better survivability. They're still not spectacular, but they're better at doing what Hormagaunts are there for- tying things up so the real killers can get in position.

I like the nodes better now.

While we are on the topic of killers getting into position. What are our killers in melee these days?

Scythed Hierodules and Dimachaerons.

My opinion is that all our low level units are horrid in melee compared to other armies dedicated melee units.

Isn't it worse than that? Seems many hold the line shooty units can deliver a convincing beatdown on our gribblies.