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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Carnifex went up?

I guess I never realised that 4-5 S6 attacks hitting on 4+, especially on a platform more expensive yet somehow less resilient than a Rhino, was the meta in 40k these days...

Carnifex is mostly unchanged.

One pair of scything talons became cheaper, but two pairs are more expensive.

Yes, 'cause that extra S6 attack hitting on 4+ is so game breaking. Of course they had to raise the price.

I liked third edition. Warriors as an HQ choice really sold the swarm faction vibe for me. And super customizable.

I'm very happy with Warriors and Gaunts with devourer going down in points, also the Raveners and Tfexes!

But the Carnifex is in such in a sad states. Hope the future codex bring them up somewhat, ideally in buff and not point cost (I don't want garbage discount monsters, I'd prefer to pay more point for something scary on the tabletop).

With the exception of space wolves, many codici have a section of upgrades purchaseable with points:

Marines have chapter commands
Death guards have plagues
Blood Angles have Death Company
Dark Angels have (probably) Deathwing initiation.

I'm really hoping that adaptations become purchaseable with points.

Spoletta wrote:
With the exception of space wolves, many codici have a section of upgrades purchaseable with points:

Marines have chapter commands
Death guards have plagues
Blood Angles have Death Company
Dark Angels have (probably) Deathwing initiation.

I'm really hoping that adaptations become purchaseable with points.

Not going to argue that it wouldn’t be nice. Although you’d run the risk of things being either auto-take upgrades or just inflate the points on something that’s already overpriced. GW does seem to be moving away from pre-game CP upgrades into point costs, so there is hope.

The chapter command equivalent is already covered in our named characters. Want a special tyrant/carnafex/lictor? Take the named one. Similar set up to the SW, where all their special guys have models. So I could see GW dusting their hands off and giving is a “Close enough, done"

Well, we already have some auto takes/traps with the current system.

At least, if it isn't limited to just 2 units, you can have more choices and we can start having again our customizable bugs of old.

Just being able to run my 9-blob of warriors as multiple units would be nice. But then I am kind of moving towards only doing crusade anyways.

While Carnifexes going up in price is annoying, I look at some of the changes coming to Death Guard and am optimistic that we'll get a similar treatment. Multiple attack profiles and innate damage reduction would take the Carnifex from weak to very strong with no other changes.

Anyways, in the short-term I think Devourers are worth sprinkling into any Termagant unit. They're now cheap enough that you might as well take half Devourers and half Fleshborers, just to get some bonus firepower without turning a meatshield unit into an expensive one.

Warriors getting a points drop is real nice. I'm still not sure if the bare-bones double Scything Talon build is actually worth using just on account of lack of offensive utility (if you've had success with them, please share!), but taking just Deathspitters and no other upgrades seems viable- at a mere 23pts, that's spammable and makes a great anti-heavy-infantry counterpart to the new and improved Devilgants' chaff-clearing.

Edit: Actually, I wonder if taking just Boneswords has a role. 20pts for that melee profile is not bad at all.

I'm tempering all 9th expectations but will admit the first wave of codexes does look promising. Super interested to see how they approach DE as the first non Astartes/faction known for it's resilience.

 catbarf wrote:
While Carnifexes going up in price is annoying, I look at some of the changes coming to Death Guard and am optimistic that we'll get a similar treatment. Multiple attack profiles and innate damage reduction would take the Carnifex from weak to very strong with no other changes.

Anyways, in the short-term I think Devourers are worth sprinkling into any Termagant unit. They're now cheap enough that you might as well take half Devourers and half Fleshborers, just to get some bonus firepower without turning a meatshield unit into an expensive one.

Warriors getting a points drop is real nice. I'm still not sure if the bare-bones double Scything Talon build is actually worth using just on account of lack of offensive utility (if you've had success with them, please share!), but taking just Deathspitters and no other upgrades seems viable- at a mere 23pts, that's spammable and makes a great anti-heavy-infantry counterpart to the new and improved Devilgants' chaff-clearing.

Edit: Actually, I wonder if taking just Boneswords has a role. 20pts for that melee profile is not bad at all.

I am also tempted to try out the 20 pt "pair of boneswords + nothing else" warrior loadout. 5 of them just cost 100 points. If you compare to basic termagaunts, you get only 20 termas, meaning only 5 more wounds than the 5 warriors with boneswords, who have a total of 20 attacks with ap2. If you have 5 points left you can even give them adrenal glands
Deathspitters don't do anything if you don't pay for a prime (and dedicate an HQ slot), and I don't want to pay for the prime.

That is not a bad deal. I like the warrior idea. If you are leviathan they even have 6+++. I would also ask you to consider a custom fleet that gives scything tallons ap1. With 2 scything tallons you get and ekstra attack and you re-roll 1's.

Did the carnifex get increased in price? As far as I can see it lost the 2x scythe discount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is not a bad deal. I like the warrior idea. If you are leviathan they even have 6+++. I would also ask you to consider a custom fleet that gives scything tallons ap1. With 2 scything tallons you get and ekstra attack and you re-roll 1's.

Did the carnifex get increased in price? As far as I can see it lost the 2x scythe discount.

As I said above, two pairs of talons got more expensive, but one pair got cheaper.

So depends how you run them.

As for devilgants, IMHO at 7ppm they are auto-take.

 Tyran wrote:
As I said above, two pairs of talons got more expensive, but one pair got cheaper.

So depends how you run them.

As for devilgants, IMHO at 7ppm they are auto-take.

They would be auto include if warriors didn't go down 4 ppm. I really like both troop choices now, and theoryhammer can't help me choose between them. Practice surely will. Don't know who will want jean stealers now. hormas and rippers will always have their own thing. IMHO we have 4 really good troop options, with warriors and devilgaunts rising somewhat above the rest

I fear the range issue for devilgaunts in practise, while warriors are so cheap now I think you can just throw them somewhere on the table and not care if they die, because they will only die to something much more expensive, and I see many favorable trades.
We will see gg GW

 addnid wrote:
Deathspitters don't do anything if you don't pay for a prime (and dedicate an HQ slot), and I don't want to pay for the prime.

I think that's a bit harsh. 9 Warriors with just Deathspitters shoot about as well as 6 + a Prime while costing less and having three extra wounds. I see the Prime as a force multiplier for larger broods, but for smaller ones the loss in firepower isn't enormous.

Just mathing it out, a Warrior with a Deathspitter and nothing else now outshoots an Intercessor, point for point, even in Tactical doctrine, and without taking Adaptive Physiology into account. I'm not sure if MSU cheap ranged Warriors would really be an optimal use of points, but it's an option.

Comparing a 5-strong squad to Termagants, 23 of them to be precise, you've got about 2/3 the wounds but better Sv and T, are vulnerable to multi-damage but don't have to worry about Blast, same ave number of hits in melee but higher S, 15 shots at 24"/S5/AP-1 versus 23 shots at 12"/S4/AP-, and Synapse. I'd say Warriors have the edge if it weren't for the fact that multi-damage weapons always seem to home in on my Warriors and eat them alive.

Warriors can be very survivable. Before the points drop in the FAQ, my group was testing running them in two groups of 9, with a Prime behind each one. Each warrior group had deathspitters and rending claws, were Jomungandr for the (almost)always +1 save, and Enhanced Resistance adaptive physiology. Along with Catalyst and Unyielding Chitin stratagem, they are nearly impossible to shift, and put out a decent amount of damage in both the shooting and fight phases.

With the -4 points they just got, I expect this combination to be even more potent on the table.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Warriors can be very survivable. Before the points drop in the FAQ, my group was testing running them in two groups of 9, with a Prime behind each one. Each warrior group had deathspitters and rending claws, were Jomungandr for the (almost)always +1 save, and Enhanced Resistance adaptive physiology. Along with Catalyst and Unyielding Chitin stratagem, they are nearly impossible to shift, and put out a decent amount of damage in both the shooting and fight phases.

With the -4 points they just got, I expect this combination to be even more potent on the table.

They have no real damage output and are plain overcosted for this role.
I'd probably take 54 points and 2 Lictors for Deploy Scramblers in my Force of the Hive Mind lists rather than going heavy on mediocre units like Warriors when FW offers greatness for a fair price (in game points at least)

 Eldarain wrote:
I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.

I disagree with this. Nids are a good army because of the FW stuff but outside of that, the book itself is probably the worst it's been in a while I think.

Depends on your definition of "in a while". It is surely better than 6h and 7th, and after this last FAQ it is actually a good mid tier codex.

I... I haven't used Tyranid Warriors in a game since 2nd Edition.

Time to make sure that there is still some pewter under all that dust then.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.

I disagree with this. Nids are a good army because of the FW stuff but outside of that, the book itself is probably the worst it's been in a while I think.

If it's something we both agree wholeheartedly, it means it's damn true considering that we have disagreed on pretty much everything in the past

I feel like competing at the highest level is now restricted to scoring tricks, which was an option past codex too. Other than that Horde Nids is significantly worse, genestealers are a joke, flyrants are overpriced, and even I woudnt want to try make Nidzilla work right now.

That’s with the exception of the FW stuff. I think with FW Nids are one of the strongest armies in the game. Which is a measure of how mediocre the book itself is. To put it gently.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I feel like competing at the highest level is now restricted to scoring tricks, which was an option past codex too. Other than that Horde Nids is significantly worse, genestealers are a joke, flyrants are overpriced, and even I woudnt want to try make Nidzilla work right now.

That’s with the exception of the FW stuff. I think with FW Nids are one of the strongest armies in the game. Which is a measure of how mediocre the book itself is. To put it gently.

triple dima + a hierodule needs the scoring tricks to fully work. Using the forgeworld nidzilla without them is very risky. My best triple dima lists still had 3 ripper swarms, 2 lictors, and some basic termagaunts to screen parts of the board to deny deepstriking enemy units from arriving in some areas of the board.

In fact the dimas' biggest use (from my games with them) was forcing the opponent to deal with them and let my scoring tricks get carried out. Because they don't always kill their target (stuff with an invu which is at least 4++ mostly). But even then, a savy nid player can get ahead on scoring while the opponents get rif of the dima who failed.

Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.

Concerning the new FAQ
I can't see any point costs for Spine Banks. Does that mean the Spinebanks points I have to pay additionally for the Tervigon base costs are unchanged?

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.

Why not post it in the list section ? It is easier to find there. Otherwise yeah my last two lists I used against sisters and custodes also featured about the same troop points and same 2 lictors, perhaps our lists look a lot alike hah hah

Max Jet wrote:
Concerning the new FAQ
I can't see any point costs for Spine Banks. Does that mean the Spinebanks points I have to pay additionally for the Tervigon base costs are unchanged?

If there are no point costs, they are considered free.

 addnid wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.

Why not post it in the list section ? It is easier to find there. Otherwise yeah my last two lists I used against sisters and custodes also featured about the same troop points and same 2 lictors, perhaps our lists look a lot alike hah hah

Mainly because I don’t really give a gak about feedback from most the people who comment on there who generally don’t really seem to know what they are talking about and are just responding to the top thread, and I also mostly posted it in here to share my thoughts with you guys because I like discussing the game with you guys, since agree or disagree I know most of you are Nid players with years of experience. I just don’t really find Dakka to be a very productive place outside of certain threads

 Nitro Zeus wrote:


You could probably sub Dimas for Flyrants and play the same list and slowly swap out.

This is a really interesting point.

Dimas are amazing, that's not a surprise to anyone. Flyrants are considered sub par.

When comparing them 1:1 as I'm sure a lot more people own Flyrants than Dimas, how close are they?

Statline wise they're more similar than you think at a first glance.

Dima 230 Points - M12'' | WS3+ | BS3+ | S7 | T7 | W18 | A6 | Ld 8 | Sv3+/5++/5+++* - Has a conditional FNP, Re-rolls hits with his main weapon.

Flyrant - 215Points - M16'' | WS2+ | BS3+ | S6 | T7 | W12 | A4 | Ld 10 | Sv3+/4++ - This loadout has Wings, Deathspitters, Rending claws, AG and TS. Re-rolls wounds with its main melee weapon.

So to compare how durable they are you have T7 vs T7, identical. 18W vs 12W, Dima favoured. 3+ vs 3+ identical. 5++ vs 4++ Flyrant favoured. Conditional 5+++ vs Catalyst if you take it, even. Pretty damn equal with the Flyrant feeling the pain of Mortal Wounds a little more.

Melee damage output. Dima has a S8, AP-3, D3+3D, RR hits and an additional attack with S7, AP-3, 2D and then a special rule making a model add a D6 to its Str and if it's less than 7 it takes D6 mortal wounds

Melee damage output. Flyrant has a S7, AP-3, D3D. RR wounds, rolls of 6 are AP-6 and 3D and an additional attack of S7, AP0, D3D. With TS, any 6s also inflict 1D you can also take Maw Claws of Thyrax for RR Hits after your first kill or Xenogenic Acid for a Mortal Wound on a 5+.

I'd say Melee is Dima favoured but it's not a landslide, unlike the next two categories.

Ranged damage output. Dima - None. Flyrant, Deathspitters seem like the best all round option but all 3 main options are 20 points, simply pick which one you think fits best.

Ranged is a landslide for the Flyrant.

Psychic output. Dima - None. Flyrant, oh boy, want to buff yourself or your troops? Catalyst. Want to debuff that unit of Eradicators, The Horror. Want to just dishout as many wounds as possible in every phase to deal with C'tan and Ghaz, Psychic Scream and Smite.

Landslide for the Flyrant again.

For slightly less points you get a faster, slightly less durable, slightly less lethal in close combat but far more customisable, shooty, pshycicy, synapse, SITW unit that can DS

Whether you consider it being a HQ choice a downside or an upside is whether you think taking Malanthropes/Neurothropes are a tax or a boon.