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 Zande4 wrote:
Flyrants are considered sub par.

...They are?

I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop, but Flyrant spam is one of the big reasons the Rule of 3 was created in the first place. Has that changed a lot since 9th dropped?

 catbarf wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Flyrants are considered sub par.

...They are?

I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop, but Flyrant spam is one of the big reasons the Rule of 3 was created in the first place. Has that changed a lot since 9th dropped?

Definitely under-used. They were just buffed, wings went from 45 points to 30 points.

 catbarf wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Flyrants are considered sub par.

...They are?

I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop, but Flyrant spam is one of the big reasons the Rule of 3 was created in the first place. Has that changed a lot since 9th dropped?

I think the biggest issue for them in 9th is how badly they bleed secondary points between Bring It Down/Assassinate and Abhor the Witch. The errata helped a bit in this regard, but going from 8 victory points each to 5 victory points each is still a bit rough. There was also the fly nerf which made the gun configuration not quite as good since they can't fall out of combat and fire to full effect (admittedly they can shoot whatever they are engaged with, but odds are there are better things to shoot or whatever is in combat is something that will in all likelihood kill the Tyrant).

There is also the concern that they tend to operate within 18'' so they are very vulnerable to melta weapons.

I suppose in my own case my main complaint is that they just feel very bland right now. Each is basically a combat unit that doesn't do much of anything for the army, compared to the force multiplication the other HQs offer (and Tyrant's used to offer - I miss the Old Adversary, Indescribable Horror, and Hive Commander abilities and the old Tyrant-exclusive version of Paroxysm that both weakened the opponent and "fixed" our weapon skill issues).

 catbarf wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Flyrants are considered sub par.

...They are?

I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop, but Flyrant spam is one of the big reasons the Rule of 3 was created in the first place. Has that changed a lot since 9th dropped?

When rule of 3 was created Flyrants were nerfed like 4 ways at the exact same, and have been steadily tuned down multiple times since, and the game has become less and less practical for the type of unit. So if you’re asking has a lot changed in 9th since going all the way back to the start of 8th Ed - yes, tons.

 Strat_N8 wrote:



I think the biggest issue for them in 9th is how badly they bleed secondary points between Bring It Down/Assassinate and Abhor the Witch. The errata helped a bit in this regard, but going from 8 victory points each to 5 victory points each is still a bit rough.

Do you know what section that is in the errata? Trying to wrap my head around everything in those changes for a game this weekend.

 Zande4 wrote:


So to compare how durable they are you have T7 vs T7, identical. 18W vs 12W, Dima favoured. 3+ vs 3+ identical. 5++ vs 4++ Flyrant favoured. Conditional 5+++ vs Catalyst if you take it, even. Pretty damn equal with the Flyrant feeling the pain of Mortal Wounds a little more.

Even BEFORE the FNP, Flyrant is less tanky against literally everything, including AP2 or higher weaponry which is the only place the invul is relevant. And since you're playing Nidzilla those weapons are stretched thin anyway. Against any other weaponry including most psyker powers and bolt weapons, the Dima is significantly tougher. And that's all assuming it has no FNP. I wouldn't say this is pretty damn equal at all.

 Zande4 wrote:

I'd say Melee is Dima favoured but it's not a landslide, unlike the next two categories.

The Dima wins by an absolute landslide. His weapon is higher strength (a very relevant strength tier increase at 7->8 too), it does more than DOUBLE the damage of the Flyrant, and even with 1 less BS he hits more times than the Flyrant anyway since he has half as many attacks again on top of what the Flyrant has. His tail weapon is significantly better, and his mortal wound ability also gives out free wounds on top of this.

In your breakdown, only ONE Flyrant can take Maw Claws of Thyrax and it's costing a CP at the very least to do so since it's far from the best relic available, and it still doesn't contest the Dima. Seriously run the numbers here vs different targets. Dima wins by a massive amount.

 Zande4 wrote:

Landslide for the Flyrant again.

Disagree. Percentage wise anything vs nothing is a landslide. Practically, that single Tyranid monster gun at BS3 with no re-rolls isn't doing much at all.



Flyrant's only significant advantage is being a lvl 2 psyker, which you have Swarmlord / Neurothrope for anyway. Flyrant's aren't AWFUL or anything - but they just don't hold a candle to the new FW models. That's not uncommon, it's the same story for the rest of the dex. Only Exocrine comes close but is still definitely worse.

@Nitro Zeus

Mmm yeah okay. I just did the maths against T4 - T8 / 2+/3+/4+/3++/4++/5++

Flyrant with no relic, Rending Claws, Deathspitters, TS, Smite and Psychic Scream all hitting the same target vs a Dima dumping everything into the one target equated to the Dima doing an average of 1.4x more wounds to the target. It did more damage to every target except T5 - T7 3++ when they were both averaged out to the same point values.

I also didn't add the Dima's swallow ability which would obviously clinch this further in its favour.

Edit: Actually only 1.2 more on average, I forgot to add in the re-rolls to wound for the Rending Claws and the AP-6 / 3D on 6s. Still, I wasn't factoring in Deny the Witch, only failed tests. So still not super realistic to get off all that crap compared to the Dima just smacking. The Flyrant does outperform at T4 - T8 now though against 3++ and T5 - T6 against a 4++. The biggest differences though are T7-T8 2+ - 4+ where the Dima is almost 50% more lethal.

Yeah that sounds about right. You could probably marh in the gun there too but honestly it’s probably not even worth the effort it’s barely gonna change those numbers by a decimal I think


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m torn on whether to go for another Hierodule and triple Dima or just wait for god knows how long for a new codex. Which even then possibly won’t have better options than Dima/Hierodule for comp Nidzilla

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 addnid wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.

Why not post it in the list section ? It is easier to find there. Otherwise yeah my last two lists I used against sisters and custodes also featured about the same troop points and same 2 lictors, perhaps our lists look a lot alike hah hah

Mainly because I don’t really give a gak about feedback from most the people who comment on there who generally don’t really seem to know what they are talking about and are just responding to the top thread, and I also mostly posted it in here to share my thoughts with you guys because I like discussing the game with you guys, since agree or disagree I know most of you are Nid players with years of experience. I just don’t really find Dakka to be a very productive place outside of certain threads

Fair enough. Back to the dima vs flyrant, the dimas' spine maws do weigh into the balance when you charge stuff like harlequins or battle sisters, because the combination of MWs and 5+++ gain is huge. When you run triple dima it goes off a lot, whereas poor flyrant is a lvl2 psycher. After a few games, i must say I prefer spine maws to lvl2 psycher, incredibly enough.
Also dima will murder tougness 7 and 8 stuff whereas a flyrant will struggle, even with the murderous size adaptation.

I do think super flyrant (behemoth relic and all the stuff) holds its own against a dima but why would anyone play behemoth ? Not enough incentive.

we do need psychers for catalist and onslaught (psy scream also) as well so some lists will need a hive tyrant for the two psy powers, but in that case sending a brawling tyrant out for a favorable trade is not the best, hence why neuros are more reliable for casting throughout the game.

Thanks for the clarification guys. I don't use Flyrants much personally so hadn't been tracking on their status.

Nitro- At a two codices/month pace, all the 9th Ed codices should be arriving by fall of this year. Figure raw averages say 4-5 months out for us. Personally I'd wait on the codex but YMMV.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.

I disagree with this. Nids are a good army because of the FW stuff but outside of that, the book itself is probably the worst it's been in a while I think.

The book is more than 3 years old at this point, it is an early 8th edition book after all. Back then it was the best the Tyranids have been since 4th ed.

Now it has been left behind by 9th edition books, but the same applies to pretty much all 8th edition books. I mean, you don't see Imperial Guard, Craftworld Eldar or Tau dominate tournaments anymore.

And even then I would argue it has aged more gracefully than the 5th and 6th ed books ever did. It was impossible to play the 6th ed book after the Decurion books hit the field in the second half of 7th.

addnid wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 addnid wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.

Why not post it in the list section ? It is easier to find there. Otherwise yeah my last two lists I used against sisters and custodes also featured about the same troop points and same 2 lictors, perhaps our lists look a lot alike hah hah

Mainly because I don’t really give a gak about feedback from most the people who comment on there who generally don’t really seem to know what they are talking about and are just responding to the top thread, and I also mostly posted it in here to share my thoughts with you guys because I like discussing the game with you guys, since agree or disagree I know most of you are Nid players with years of experience. I just don’t really find Dakka to be a very productive place outside of certain threads

Fair enough. Back to the dima vs flyrant, the dimas' spine maws do weigh into the balance when you charge stuff like harlequins or battle sisters, because the combination of MWs and 5+++ gain is huge. When you run triple dima it goes off a lot, whereas poor flyrant is a lvl2 psycher. After a few games, i must say I prefer spine maws to lvl2 psycher, incredibly enough.
Also dima will murder tougness 7 and 8 stuff whereas a flyrant will struggle, even with the murderous size adaptation.

I do think super flyrant (behemoth relic and all the stuff) holds its own against a dima but why would anyone play behemoth ? Not enough incentive.

we do need psychers for catalist and onslaught (psy scream also) as well so some lists will need a hive tyrant for the two psy powers, but in that case sending a brawling tyrant out for a favorable trade is not the best, hence why neuros are more reliable for casting throughout the game.

Agreed on all accounts. I think Swarmlord and a Neurothrope are enough to hold down the essentials, which for me is the same three powers in the same order of importance - Onslaught, then Catalyst and Psychic Scream. Subbing psychic scream out for Paroxysm, The Horror or even the Kraken power depending on the match up.


I’m realising in hindsight you were probably asking me to link that list, so here it is. Trade out Termagants for Rippers as desired:

Tyran wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.

I disagree with this. Nids are a good army because of the FW stuff but outside of that, the book itself is probably the worst it's been in a while I think.

The book is more than 3 years old at this point, it is an early 8th edition book after all. Back then it was the best the Tyranids have been since 4th ed.

Now it has been left behind by 9th edition books, but the same applies to pretty much all 8th edition books. I mean, you don't see Imperial Guard, Craftworld Eldar or Tau dominate tournaments anymore.

And even then I would argue it has aged more gracefully than the 5th and 6th ed books ever did. It was impossible to play the 6th ed book after the Decurion books hit the field in the second half of 7th.

All fair points and you’re completely right, around release it was the best written dex we’d had since, well since I started playing.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

addnid wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 addnid wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.

Agreed on all accounts. I think Swarmlord and a Neurothrope are enough to hold down the essentials, which for me is the same three powers in the same order of importance - Onslaught, then Catalyst and Psychic Scream. Subbing psychic scream out for Paroxysm, The Horror or even the Kraken power depending on the match up.


I’m realising in hindsight you were probably asking me to link that list, so here it is. Trade out Termagants for Rippers as desired:

Spoiler:

Hive Fleet Kraken

Swarmlord
Malanthrope
Neurothrope - Resonance Barb

10x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants

Lictor
Lictor

Dima
Dima
Dima

Scythed Hierodule - Dermic Symbiosis
Scythed Hierodule - Dermic Symbiosis


1999pts

All fair points and you’re completely right, around release it was the best written dex we’d had since, well since I started playing.

Good stuff ! termagants spread out better than rippers for the manlanthrope bubble, so I would go 21*2 termas + 3*1 rippers instead of 5*10 termas like you, even though both troop set ups have their own merit.

2 scythed hierodules work great I think, even though initially I was afraid of terrain issues. Turns out they get across just fine if you plan ahead and send the dimas meleeing where the hierodule can't go meleeing. The 3d6 flamer is also a lot more useful than I would have thought thanks to the 18 range. Acidfex has no play at all because of scythed, even with its point reduction

Not only do I agree on all points I also wanna mention that I was saying exactly this myself two months ago :


One thing I wanna mention is that you noted Custodes and SM as poor match ups back then, I actually feel like Elite match ups are better for them and it’s stuff like Orks and Tyranids ironically, where our 5 offensive models just don’t have the dice to bring down enough scoring, especially when one or two of them die. I don’t think Custodes or SM are a problem anything you touch vs them dies.

Hah hah yep my theoryhammer for 9th so far has been wrong on many accounts. I try not to do too much of it now
Custodes is easy to beat with nids, turns out.
And generally, after playing a few games with nids, I realised how good they are against elite armies, and that we could win even if our big stuff hypothèse slaughtered.

I think it is very hard to beat comp white scar army lists though, but again, theoryhammer on white scars.

Nitro did you try pyrovores out (instead of some of the termas) ? I did and the large base is pretty neat to deny stuff, and they are so cheap they can even sometimes kill their points worth. Not had an issue with them Not being on sec

The biggest issue with pyroes is their cost. I had mine 3D printed. Not a good mold as the same leg broke on all 3. But they are fine.

Pyroes are good for MSU on objectives. And the 10" flame is good as well. 4 wounds.only 28 points. Outflank some for CP.
Did I mention they have a good chance to deal MW if they kill them in melee?

I like them. They are not the backbone of the army, but feel free to experiment with them.

I'm waiting for some 60mm bases, but these are my Pyrovore Scrap Builts https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-85299-64236_Pyrovore%20Scrap%20Built.html

Need to work a bit more on the gun.

I still don't get why GW hasn't released a duel plastic pyro-bio vore kit with 3 in a box.


That said Hydracast also has a pyrovore alternative which I think even fits the design idea of the pyrovore better than GW's design*
http://hydracast.blogspot.com/p/pyrophage.html

I've some of their arms and they are well made resin parts


*Honestly I think the pyrovore was going to be the new biovore and someone said "hey why don't we make it a flamethrower". Because when you consider that its supposed to be a close combat unit it doesn't really "look" like a close combat weapon design. It has a long accurate barrel better suited to firing sports; meanwhile the actual biovore has a tiny barrel far more suited to spewing flame in close quarters

 addnid wrote:
Hah hah yep my theoryhammer for 9th so far has been wrong on many accounts. I try not to do too much of it now
Custodes is easy to beat with nids, turns out.
And generally, after playing a few games with nids, I realised how good they are against elite armies, and that we could win even if our big stuff hypothèse slaughtered.

I think it is very hard to beat comp white scar army lists though, but again, theoryhammer on white scars.

Nitro did you try pyrovores out (instead of some of the termas) ? I did and the large base is pretty neat to deny stuff, and they are so cheap they can even sometimes kill their points worth. Not had an issue with them Not being on sec

I actually haven’t tried them out but they look very playable. My initial thoughts for supporting a Nidzilla army was as much obsec bodies as possible as every other edition, I’ve found that to be the key thing you need to support them. Plus a couple of Lictors for specific objective play. Just dedicated scoring so that you have the best chance of taking as much as possible.

Another overlooked thing is that Nidzilla army is so damn fast, has a lot of fly, and also falls back out of combat for free. You can basically direct your strength where you need to and just engage parts of the opponents army at a time and just remove their ability to take certain objectives. Takes practice on knowing how much you need where tho.

I've used pyrovores alot and to some good success.

They obvioulsy wont win the game by themselves, but since it only costs 1CP to outflank 9 of them and they are an infantry unit thats good at killing other infantry units, they usually always are worth their points.

Theres 2 ways to run them. Either in a kraken detachment as a flanking/ second wave/midfield unit or as an outflanking unit in any tyranid force that can be used for secondaries or point denial.

They make it very easy to get actions done, as they are cheap enough you dont feel like your wasting points, and they are very effective at getting rid of smallish units that are holding objectives near the side of the board.


You also get that weird once in 32 games moment where a player charges a unit with some uber character and you activate Acid blood on them and tell him how he could now take up to 27 mortal wounds for killing your 84pt unit.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I've used pyrovores alot and to some good success.

They obvioulsy wont win the game by themselves, but since it only costs 1CP to outflank 9 of them and they are an infantry unit thats good at killing other infantry units, they usually always are worth their points.

Theres 2 ways to run them. Either in a kraken detachment as a flanking/ second wave/midfield unit or as an outflanking unit in any tyranid force that can be used for secondaries or point denial.

They make it very easy to get actions done, as they are cheap enough you dont feel like your wasting points, and they are very effective at getting rid of smallish units that are holding objectives near the side of the board.


You also get that weird once in 32 games moment where a player charges a unit with some uber character and you activate Acid blood on them and tell him how he could now take up to 27 mortal wounds for killing your 84pt unit.

Yeah the double whammy of acid blood and volatile backed in makes it an excelent melee uit. They have to shoot it. If you have a unit of 3 overwtach is quite bad.

What I do not like with the outflank is that they can not go wherever you want. But it plays well into the 'current' list with shooting and other deep strikers.

So how do we kill Mortarion?

I've math hammered the FW monsters against him and it's not looking good for us.

T8 18W 3+/4++/5+++ -1 to hit / -1 to damage / disables re-rolls in cc / disables auras nearby (RIP Synapse)

He also hits like a truck, he'll wipe anything short of a Hierodule out in one turn and even they only just survive even with Dermic Symbiosis

You spread three barbed heirodules out and shoot him with +1d on one. You also smite him with zoanthropes.

on average though a single barbed only gets 1 shot through his defence's which is either gonna deal 1 damage or 2 damage. Pretty bad.

6 zoans do end up dealing him about 3.5 damage with a smite though. 3 squads of those plus a psychic scream do about 11ish damage to him. That is enough to slow him down and make him dead by turn 2.

My TTS list isnt all that scared of him.

Big bugs do not like him though. In a kraken list all you can do is charge him with 20 stealers and a swarmlord after dealing him a few mortal wounds in the psychic phase. Double attacking with 20 stealers does a good chunk of damage to him if he goes for the swarmy first, and if he doesnt he gets hit decently by him.

 Zande4 wrote:
So how do we kill Mortarion?

I've math hammered the FW monsters against him and it's not looking good for us.

T8 18W 3+/4++/5+++ -1 to hit / -1 to damage / disables re-rolls in cc / disables auras nearby (RIP Synapse)

He also hits like a truck, he'll wipe anything short of a Hierodule out in one turn and even they only just survive even with Dermic Symbiosis

Well for starters don’t let him get off Miasma for free if you can help it. SitW and/or Kronos stuff helps here.

Scoring Nids should just bog him down he does nothing if he fall backs. In Nidzilla, Two Dermic Hierodules will win combat vs him for less pts. Assuming no Miasma, that does make it harder. He’s good, but eh he should be good. Just play reactively and smart vs him and I think you’ll be able to get the upper hand, he’s a big chunk of points that can VERY easily end up doing next to nothing vs us.

I will wait and see, but having such stuff in regular 40k, for not too many points (other LoW in that weight class cost around 600-650 points) can create a bit of "feel bad" tension between new players.

I don't think we will have absolutely terrible issues with him (other stuff in the codex seems very strong too, I don't think he will be auto include for DG players).
Except for dima builds (losing the to hit rerolls will be nasty).

I do think however that he will be slightly problematic when the DG player will spike with good save rolls, and we end up doing next to nothing to him when throwing 1/3 of our army on him.
And no, you can't ignore him at all, else he will get twice his points back in 3 turns EZ.

But I am very curious to see how many comp list actually field him (perhaps I am wrong and he will be completely auto include, hard to say really).

Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You spread three barbed heirodules out...

Who just has 3 Hierodules?

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Three Dimas ...

Who just has three Dimas lying around?

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.

The death guard player, if he knows what he is doing, will keep models close to morty’s base (but perhaps the rest of the DG army is too slow to keep up with morty), bubble wrapping of sorts, to make it impossible for us to get three dimas (perhaps even two) into melee. Perhaps an exocrine or our smites or hive guards would be able to clear a path for all three dimas, I don’t know, theoryhammer can’t solve this (I think I just did an MChammer reference without even trying to hah hah)
So perhaps you are correct Nitro Zeus, practice will say

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.

Can they?

If he gets Miasma off, they do 2 wounds each. If he doesn't get Miasma off, they do 2.7 wounds each. Even with Adrenaline Surge and no Miasma, three of them do 10.8 wounds and that's the absolute dream scenario that you're probably not getting off.

Scythed Hierodules don't fair much better doing 2.7 wounds if he is Miasma'd and 3.6 wounds if he isn't. If he takes the WL trait that makes 4+ needed to wound, he can reduce the Hierodule's output even further. Two Hierodules hitting first with Adrenaline Surge are only doing 10.8 wounds, so better than the Dimas but still a struggle.

-1 to hit / -1 to wound damage / T8 / 3+/4++/5+++ / disabling auras and re-rolls with a few other knick knacks he can look at adding like halving movement / only being wounded on a 4+ and disabling AP-1/-2, disgusting. He can also up himself to T9 which makes Dimas even more hopeless.

 Zande4 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.

Can they?

If he gets Miasma off, they do 2 wounds each. If he doesn't get Miasma off, they do 2.7 wounds each. Even with Adrenaline Surge and no Miasma, three of them do 10.8 wounds and that's the absolute dream scenario that you're probably not getting off.

Scythed Hierodules don't fair much better doing 2.7 wounds if he is Miasma'd and 3.6 wounds if he isn't. If he takes the WL trait that makes 4+ needed to wound, he can reduce the Hierodule's output even further. Two Hierodules hitting first with Adrenaline Surge are only doing 10.8 wounds, so better than the Dimas but still a struggle.

-1 to hit / -1 to wound damage / T8 / 3+/4++/5+++ / disabling auras and re-rolls with a few other knick knacks he can look at adding like halving movement / only being wounded on a 4+ and disabling AP-1/-2, disgusting. He can also up himself to T9 which makes Dimas even more hopeless.

He can't take the Transhuman warlord trait.