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I was going to say any tank heavy list would eat you up.... but nevermind. You have smite spam.

But I still think a vehicle heavy list is going to cause you a lot of problems.

Devourers are superior on every target except T7 3+, and there they're very close. Though with Variance they have a decent chance to overperform and be superior.

+1 cover doesn't work on stuff with fly.

Not that a 2+ save is a huge deal for Tyrants, since they're now T8 with a 4++. It's going to be pretty rare that you're not just taking the invuln save. You only really miss it vs Guilliman assault cannons, I think.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Devourers are superior on every target except T7 3+, and there they're very close. Though with Variance they have a decent chance to overperform and be superior.

+1 cover doesn't work on stuff with fly.

He never specified a hive fleet. I assume he was deepstriking the tyrants wing wings.

Dionysodorus wrote:Not that a 2+ save is a huge deal for Tyrants, since they're now T8 with a 4++. It's going to be pretty rare that you're not just taking the invuln save. You only really miss it vs Guilliman assault cannons, I think.

Tyrants are T7 not 8.

 Lance845 wrote:

Tyrants are T7 not 8.

Oh, my bad. So bolters aren't basically ignorable after all with a 3+.

WIth the Kraken Fall back and Charge again, would taking devourers & Talons on things like Warriors, Raveners, Carnifex, HT be good. Say your locked in combat from a previous round, you can fall back 1" shoot your guns into the enemy. Then recharge and get to attack first once again.

Your getting the Devourer Assault 3 shots rather than just one extra attack for the extra pair of scything talons.

Also, I see Leviathan as basically army wide Feel No pain. yeah you have to be withing 6" of Synapse, but honestly when are you not. It says that the UNIT has to be within 6", then any wound taken can be saved. So even if you have a long line of say genestealers or hormies as long as any model in the unit is within 6" of a Synapse unit then any model gets the save. So if one of the models at the end of the lie is say 12" away from the actual model that gives synapse, his buddy that is closer passes it down the chain.

Dynas wrote:
WIth the Kraken Fall back and Charge again, would taking devourers & Talons on things like Warriors, Raveners, Carnifex, HT be good. Say your locked in combat from a previous round, you can fall back 1" shoot your guns into the enemy. Then recharge and get to attack first once again.

Your getting the Devourer Assault 3 shots rather than just one extra attack for the extra pair of scything talons.

Also, I see Leviathan as basically army wide Feel No pain. yeah you have to be withing 6" of Synapse, but honestly when are you not. It says that the UNIT has to be within 6", then any wound taken can be saved. So even if you have a long line of say genestealers or hormies as long as any model in the unit is within 6" of a Synapse unit then any model gets the save. So if one of the models at the end of the lie is say 12" away from the actual model that gives synapse, his buddy that is closer passes it down the chain.

The 6" is really restrictive, especially by turn 3 when you will have definitely suffered losses and especially if you intend to have any blobs charging into melee. Coupled with the fact that 6+ is the worst possible chance for success. Mostly I think it makes our syanpse creatures that much more durable. So in the full tyrant list as an example, yeah. Casues every model that matters is a 12w t7 3+ 4++ 6+++ monster.

How exactly does the timing of this work?

It says use when they attempt to manifest a psychic power. To me, that implies a dice roll. So, they roll 2 dice, then you use this, and they select one of the dice? or reroll one dice?

I could see this playing out:

Eldar Player: I will attempt to cast Guide on this unit of Dark Reapers.
Tyranid Player: Okay. I will use a command point to force you to roll 1 dice.
Eldar Player: Okay then i'm not casting it.
Tyranid Player: Then i'm not spending my command point.
Eldar Player: Okay well then i'm going to cast Doom on your Swarmlord.
Tyranid Player: Fine. Since you're not casting Guide i'll use my stratagem to deny Doom.
Eldar Player: Okay. Now i'm casting Guide.
Tyranid Player: Wut? You already attempted it.

I'm not sure I see what the issue is with that scenario? It's all a mind game: when will your opponent use this stratagem and what powers can you use before they use it or to bait it out.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm not sure I see what the issue is with that scenario? It's all a mind game: when will your opponent use this stratagem and what powers can you use before they use it or to bait it out.

But it says when they attempt. You can only attempt a power ONCE. So what constitutes an attempt? The declaration, or the dice roll?

This is not as simple as it seems.

If we can use this after the dice roll it's super powerful, because you won't do that unless they succeed.

Like the ruling on this dictates pretty much if I will have a Kronos supreme command running around or not. I have about 400 points of wiggle room built into my list waiting for the rest of the codex to drop.

You're responding to them activating a unit. They don't get to go "lol jk", they already activated the unit.

Friendly way...

Perhaps, have the player declare all the various psykic powers they will use. So, when they mention they want to cast guide, ask them if they want to cast any others b/c you have a strategem you want to use to effect one.

OR the competitive RAW way

"2. Make Psychic Test
A psyker can attempt to manifest a
psychic power they know by taking a
Psychic test. To do so, roll 2D6. If the
total is equal to or greater than that
power’s warp charge value, the power is
successfully manifested. A psyker cannot
attempt to manifest the same psychic
power more than once in a turn."

The attempt stats the roll the way I see it.
Note, you can still get your deny the witch test, which should be much easier to stop.
Also, it looks like if you do this there is no way for enemy to suffer perils of the warp.

This probably needs to be FAQ, like we get to pick the lesser die after the roll or something.

 Marmatag wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm not sure I see what the issue is with that scenario? It's all a mind game: when will your opponent use this stratagem and what powers can you use before they use it or to bait it out.

But it says when they attempt. You can only attempt a power ONCE. So what constitutes an attempt? The declaration, or the dice roll?

This is not as simple as it seems.

If we can use this after the dice roll it's super powerful, because you won't do that unless they succeed.

Like the ruling on this dictates pretty much if I will have a Kronos supreme command running around or not. I have about 400 points of wiggle room built into my list waiting for the rest of the codex to drop.

Strategems interrupt the normal flow of play. At the point the strategem is used, the opponent has already chosen the Psyker and the Power to be cast (part 1 of the Psychic Sequence). Part 2 is attempting the power - but the choice of psyker and power has already been confirmed at that stage.

Eldar Player: I chose this Farseer to attempt to cast Guide on this unit of Dark Reapers.
Tyranid Player: Okay. I use a command point to force you to roll 1 dice.
*Eldar Player rolls one die*

Same as if a player declares a charge and their opponent uses a strategem to boost overwatch. The first player doesn't then get to renege and charge a different unit. Or if I declare my shots going against a Guard squad, and they spend the CP to Go to Ground, I wouldn't be allowed to take back my previous declaration and shoot at a different squad.

That's the point, as defined, attempting a power includes rolling the dice. If they didn't roll the dice they didn't attempt the power. Any rules lawyer could argue this easily. And this will happen in a tournament until FAQ'd.

But at the same time it's impossible to roll one dice without a reroll of the test, as it doesn't say "select one dice," but this has no mention of a reroll.

It seems pretty clear to me. When they say they're going to attempt Guide, you interrupt before they roll the dice and say you're using that stratagem. Then instead of rolling 2 dice they roll 1. There's no plausible reading of it where they've already rolled 2 dice and then they pick 1 -- it says that when they make the psychic test they roll 1 dice. Once they say they're attempting the power they're committed, though in a friendly game obviously you're going to let someone take back something like that if they just didn't realize the stratagem existed.

Yes but they can only roll one dice, doesn't mean they have to.

They can walk away from using that power on that psyker, and just do that power with another psyker.

Okay you interrupted guide. This guy can only use 1 dice. So he won't. Someone else will use 2.

 Marmatag wrote:
Yes but they can only roll one dice, doesn't mean they have to.

They can walk away from using that power on that psyker, and just do that power with another psyker.

Okay you interrupted guide. This guy can only use 1 dice. So he won't. Someone else will use 2.

See:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You're responding to them activating a unit. They don't get to go "lol jk", they already activated the unit.

This is a pretty cut and dry issue. If your opponent tries to be silly about it than they are trying to cheat you.

 Marmatag wrote:
Yes but they can only roll one dice, doesn't mean they have to.

They can walk away from using that power on that psyker, and just do that power with another psyker.

Okay you interrupted guide. This guy can only use 1 dice. So he won't. Someone else will use 2.

I really can't imagine that interpretation flying with any reasonable arbiter -- there's no indication anywhere in the rules that you're able to decide that you're attempting a psychic power and then walk away, and a precondition for using the stratagem is that the power is being attempted. No TO is going to allow that. I mean, sure, FAQ it, but there will only be like 3 people insisting on playing it that way.

Like every other stratagem that interrupts a declaration of intent, it can not be taken back.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Like every other stratagem that interrupts a declaration of intent, it can not be taken back.

But this doesn't specify intent. This specifies attempt. And until they roll the dice, rules as written, they haven't attempted anything.

So I don't want to get bogged down in this one. I agree the intent of the rule makes sense here, in that they declare the psyker and the power, and then you interrupt, and they are then compelled to use one dice to cast that power, and cannot go back on their declaration of the power. I get it, I feel that is the intent, too. But, as written, in a tournament setting, people will argue this. 100% guaranteed.

In casual games, you'll need to be careful with this too.

How often do you hear: "I'm going to cast <this> on <that>." Then a pause. "No wait, i'm going to cast <this> on <them> instead." In a casual setting it would be very easy to say "i hadn't made up my mind, man."

 Marmatag wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Like every other stratagem that interrupts a declaration of intent, it can not be taken back.

But this doesn't specify intent. This specifies attempt. And until they roll the dice, rules as written, they haven't attempted anything.

So I don't want to get bogged down in this one. I agree the intent of the rule makes sense here, in that they declare the psyker and the power, and then you interrupt, and they are then compelled to use one dice to cast that power, and cannot go back on their declaration of the power. I get it, I feel that is the intent, too. But, as written, in a tournament setting, people will argue this. 100% guaranteed.

In casual games, you'll need to be careful with this too.

How often do you hear: "I'm going to cast <this> on <that>." Then a pause. "No wait, i'm going to cast <this> on <them> instead." In a casual setting it would be very easy to say "i hadn't made up my mind, man."

In a tournament setting, let them argue it all they want, and get a TO.

In a casual setting, ask to clarify what they're doing, then respond - don't let them walk it back after that. If you ask "So you're casting X?" and they say "Well, let me think" then you don't tell them you're using it yet. If they say "Yeah, I'm doing that" then you say "Okay I'm using this stratagem." If they argue, you can say you asked and they answered, meaning they said they were doing it twice, or you can let them roll it back, it's up to you. I'll probably give my friends one freebie each, if they get really upset about it. But they won't.

 Marmatag wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Like every other stratagem that interrupts a declaration of intent, it can not be taken back.

But this doesn't specify intent. This specifies attempt. And until they roll the dice, rules as written, they haven't attempted anything.

So I don't want to get bogged down in this one. I agree the intent of the rule makes sense here, in that they declare the psyker and the power, and then you interrupt, and they are then compelled to use one dice to cast that power, and cannot go back on their declaration of the power. I get it, I feel that is the intent, too. But, as written, in a tournament setting, people will argue this. 100% guaranteed.

In casual games, you'll need to be careful with this too.

How often do you hear: "I'm going to cast <this> on <that>." Then a pause. "No wait, i'm going to cast <this> on <them> instead." In a casual setting it would be very easy to say "i hadn't made up my mind, man."

If it's a casual game than you make the following face and go on with your day. I would wait to declare use of the Stratagem until my opponent was sure of what power they were going to cast.

 Marmatag wrote:

In casual games, you'll need to be careful with this too.

How often do you hear: "I'm going to cast <this> on <that>." Then a pause. "No wait, i'm going to cast <this> on <them> instead." In a casual setting it would be very easy to say "i hadn't made up my mind, man."

But in a casual setting you should generally be very willing to let people take things back until dice get rolled. Like, it's very common for people to run into issues moving units where if they'd done things in a different order stuff would have worked out, and basically everyone will allow an adjustment there. In a casual game I'm (1) going to warn my opponent about the stratagem at the start of the game so that it doesn't catch them by surprise and also so they know not to just immediately roll a psychic test without giving me a chance to interrupt, and (2) if the psychic phase looks particularly complicated I'll probably just say "look I'm wanting to hold this stratagem for Doom so you can do everything else and then decide if you want to Smite with your Farseer's second power or try to make Doom on 1 dice".

In a casual setting I pretty much always let people change their minds, and I would inform them upfront that I'm going to use this stratagem in the game, and that they need to be explicit when they ultimately declare powers. When they pick up the dice and are about to roll them, that's when i get to respond.

Hopefully GW alters this writing to say when a power is declared but before dice are rolled, rather than attempted. Because declaring a psyker and a target should be sufficient to lock them in.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/02/codex-tyranids-preview-stratagems/

I am liking that Causatic Blood stratagem. Suicide a cheap unit of hormies into a high value target. Let them get slaughtered. Deal out a bunch of wounds.
Get out of Synapse range and fail morale test to get even more mortal wounds.

Marmatag your wrong about the lack of clarity on this. The process for attempting to manifest a psychic power is very clear just like shooting. There is no mechanical "attempt" in the psychic phase. Any time a player attempts to manifest a power is the same as any player attempting to shoot. The whole process is the attempt.

-First you pick a unit you wish to manifest a power with and the power they wish to manifest (the powers themselves tell you to select a target).
-then you roll
-deny
-resolve

Just like shooting, you cannot "back out" once you have declared your targets you have to follow through.

The stratagem interrupts after step 1 and makes sure you have to roll 1 dice.


Example: Player 1: My librarian is going to attempt to manifest smite against your hive tyrant.

Player 2: I spend 1 CP for the deepest shadow.

Player 1: gak.

The Tyranids are often thought of as a mindless swarm but, unfortunately for the galaxy, nothing could be further from the truth. Each Hive Tyrant is a genius commander, imbued with millennia of experience, and the Hive Mind commands the swarm with absolute discipline and control. Indeed, during the Battle of Macragge, the Swarmlord was able to outmanoeuvre Marneus Calgar, one of the Imperium’s greatest commanders.

Perhaps Marneus Calgar spent too much time discerning which missiles required him to take cover?

This feels almost Wardian in its writing.

I've played in plenty of tournaments (RTT and GT) where people back out just before they roll.

It's pretty standard.

Marma is right. Although the rule is patently clear, people will argue that they haven't rolled so their decision isn't made.

The counter to this is to tell them at the beginning of their psychic phase, "At some point I can spend a CP after you declare a psychic power, and make you roll only 1 dice. So, as soon as you declare a power, you're locked in, no going back. Make sure to think before you declare, because if you declare, and I say I'm countering, you cannot go back and change your mind".

 Marmatag wrote:

The Tyranids are often thought of as a mindless swarm but, unfortunately for the galaxy, nothing could be further from the truth. Each Hive Tyrant is a genius commander, imbued with millennia of experience, and the Hive Mind commands the swarm with absolute discipline and control. Indeed, during the Battle of Macragge, the Swarmlord was able to outmanoeuvre Marneus Calgar, one of the Imperium’s greatest commanders.

Perhaps Marneus Calgar spent too much time discerning which missiles required him to take cover?

This feels almost Wardian in its writing.

It's from the battle of Macragge. Not only did the swarmlord trounce him he also removed all his limbs and half his face, and the entire firs (and second?) company. Only reason Macragge still exists is some reinforcements showed up to the space fight and the ground forces were left unsupported.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
I've played in plenty of tournaments (RTT and GT) where people back out just before they roll.

It's pretty standard.

Marma is right. Although the rule is patently clear, people will argue that they haven't rolled so their decision isn't made.

The counter to this is to tell them at the beginning of their psychic phase, "At some point I can spend a CP after you declare a psychic power, and make you roll only 1 dice. So, as soon as you declare a power, you're locked in, no going back. Make sure to think before you declare, because if you declare, and I say I'm countering, you cannot go back and change your mind".

Well then those Tourneys are not actually following the rules. Once you declare what your doing your supposed to be doing it. It's like chess. You put your hand on the piece your moving that piece.

Can we take this to YMDC and get back to juicy Nid tactics?