Eihnlazer wrote:
Don't forget rippers now have a stratagem that lowers enemy leadership by 1 if they are within 6".

Khronos rippers cant be ignored because of the strat available to them and they have too many wounds to just throw a few potshots at them like spore mines.

 Dynas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Holy cow - I played a not so optimal 2000 list against AD mech last night and just my geenstealers with kraken hive fleet won the game pretty much by themselves.

I started them on the board behind a big rock right at the front of my deployment zone because i didn't know if I was going first or not. I end up going first and these speed daemons moved 27 inches with the swarm lords ability - could have added 6 more inches with the kraken stratagem too. They got a 10 inch charge and they locked up almost his entire army - their damage was nothing special (they only killed 10 vangard and put 2 wounds on a destroyer) but even so the game was over - he couldn't even kill the 20 man gene with catalyst on it because most of his army was ineligible to shoot and 3 hive tyrants are charging him next turn too.

I am totally sold on kraken stealers. They don't even need a swarm lord. Just take 2 20 man groups and save yourself 60 points.

I plan to take swarmy and 2 20x units.

Without swarmy though you are dropping your movement/advance extra (thats a potential 14")
I plan to DS in with Trygon then use swarmy. To move and advance within 1".

But yeah, kraken i think is the best fleet for an assault/melee army without a doubt. People underestimate the speed and movement. Everyone thinks shooting is what wins the game and its not, b/c as you pointed out, just lockup the shooting and they can't do anything.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Does anyone have the models to run this?


Battalion 1-Jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter. Ymgarl relic and Jorm warlord trait

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 2-jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter.

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 3-Kronos

2x Nuerothrope/w Catalyst, psychic scream, onslaught, paroxyzm

2x rippers
1x rippers with spinefist




No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
To get points for venom cannons you would have to change a malanthrope and tyranid prime out for 2 more nuerothropes (not necessarily a bad thing). This would make you susceptible to snipers though.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Trace,

I 100% agree that I think Sean is a better player (no offense to Alex). Sean is definitely a visionary.

Trygons not having an invuln kills them for me. In an age of lists where people expect to have to kill a Magnus or a Mortarion, giving them one that is only T6 with way less wounds and no invuln...too easy. So for me, all it is reasonably going to do is make their anti tank fire very efficient. And be a taxi. So I’d rather not do the former and take a cheaper taxi.

And yes, Lictors are 100% only for pheromone trail and then being a ripper squad that you hope no one ever pays attention to.

I agree about Trygons. Which is why you drop them with Tyrants. 2 Tyrants are as durable as Morty. Most armies will have just enough to kill morty in one go, on average. It's not ideal, but it's the only way to get a delivery service for both GS squads at the same time if I need it, and to get delivery without a CP and 45 totally wasted points. At least a Trygon will get shot a lot.

I'd love to run them as Jorm, then they'd be 2+ and that's actually fairly decent, but for now I think Kraken is far more important for the actual damage dealers in the army.

In general, it's not ideal, but we've got to make hard choices in our list building.

Personally, I'd prefer no monsters or multi-wound units at all, to completely gak on the meta, but that's even harder to make work, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright guys, I won't be trying this at the upcoming tourney, but here's a list idea;

Kraken Battalion
Malanthrope
Neurothrope

30 Horms
30 Horms
20 GS
20 GS

Jormungandr Battalion

Neurothrope
Neurothrope

20 GS with carapace
30 Dev gants
30 Dev Gants

3 Rav with rc
3 Rav with rc

Basically you use the 100 kraken bodies to rush the opponent, then drop off the 80 jormungandr bodies as needed. Enemies that have infiltrators/scouts are forced to choose between giving you first turn assaults that will move you forward and protect you (Just dont kill the damn things!), or blocking off your jorm drops. If you have first turn you can drop those EC GS right in front of the enemy and force them to blow twice as much non-ap shooting to remove them as normal stealers.

My biggest issue with the list is you are blowing 3 CP out the gate, leaving you with 6. You'll probably spend 2 to double tap dev gants and 1 to double advance a GS unit, so you go into turn 2 with 3 CP. That's not good.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Does anyone have the models to run this?


Battalion 1-Jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter. Ymgarl relic and Jorm warlord trait

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 2-jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter.

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 3-Kronos

2x Nuerothrope/w Catalyst, psychic scream, onslaught, paroxyzm

2x rippers
1x rippers with spinefist




No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.

pinecone77 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Does anyone have the models to run this?


Battalion 1-Jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter. Ymgarl relic and Jorm warlord trait

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 2-jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter.

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 3-Kronos

2x Nuerothrope/w Catalyst, psychic scream, onslaught, paroxyzm

2x rippers
1x rippers with spinefist




No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.

There was a fellow posting he wanted an all Warriors army. You mught get more use out of Liathan instead of Jormongandr...depends on what you're facing.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

My list;
Battalion - Kraken
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Psychic Scream, Paroxysm (Warlord, -1 to hit relic, never suffers penalty to hit trait)
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Catalyst, The Horror
Malanthrope

30x Hormagaunts
30x Hormagaunts
3x Rippers

Battalion - Kraken

Neurothrope - Catalyst
Neutothrope - Onslaught

20x Genestealers - 5x Acid Maw, 20x ST
20x Genestealers - 5x Acid Maw, 20x ST
30x Termagants - 30x Devourers

Trygon - Adrenal Glands
Trygon - Adrenal Glands

10 Devilgants could by you Adrenal Glands on Hormagaunts plus Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs on your Flyrants, good trade?

 Insectum7 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Does anyone have the models to run this?


Battalion 1-Jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter. Ymgarl relic and Jorm warlord trait

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 2-jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter.

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 3-Kronos

2x Nuerothrope/w Catalyst, psychic scream, onslaught, paroxyzm

2x rippers
1x rippers with spinefist




No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.

There was a fellow posting he wanted an all Warriors army. You mught get more use out of Liathan instead of Jormongandr...depends on what you're facing.

Haha. That was me.

I have enough Warriors for that list. No Malanthropes or Rippers yet, but Zoans for Neurothrope stand ins. Warriors progress link in my sig. Played my first game a few days ago after picking up the codex.

 Niiai wrote:

How was the games? I am waiting for my last 3 warriors so I have 18. Planing on devourers on 12 and 6 with venom cannon and bone swords. I always loose to mass tanks.

 Niiai wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Does anyone have the models to run this?


Battalion 1-Jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter. Ymgarl relic and Jorm warlord trait

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 2-jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter.

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 3-Kronos

2x Nuerothrope/w Catalyst, psychic scream, onslaught, paroxyzm

2x rippers
1x rippers with spinefist




No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.

There was a fellow posting he wanted an all Warriors army. You mught get more use out of Liathan instead of Jormongandr...depends on what you're facing.

Haha. That was me.

I have enough Warriors for that list. No Malanthropes or Rippers yet, but Zoans for Neurothrope stand ins. Warriors progress link in my sig. Played my first game a few days ago after picking up the codex.

How was the games? I am waiting for my last 3 warriors so I have 18. Planing on devourers on 12 and 6 with venom cannon and bone swords. I always loose to mass tanks.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bring Rupture cannon TFex - he's great vs tanks.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
If you're using lots of warriors, bring venom cannons. BS3 warrior venom cannons are our third most cost effective AT weapons. Shock Guard, Exocrines, Impaler Guard and Tfex, in that order, are the rest of the top 5

 Niiai wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bring Rupture cannon TFex - he's great vs tanks.

It is best vs T8 tanks. Exochrine is best vs T7 witch are most.

I have 6 hive guards as my AT. I have a painted tyranofex with flamer but use it rarly. I am thinking of getting an exochrine. I shall try out the new flamer before I potensialy switch out to the cannon.

I think my venom warriors + exoshrine will be good enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
If you're using lots of warriors, bring venom cannons. BS3 warrior venom cannons are our third most cost effective AT weapons. Shock Guard, Exocrines, Impaler Guard and Tfex, in that order, are the rest of the top 5

How are you calculating that? A warrior venom cannon is 40 points. If you have 18 a kittet out prime is around 5 points ekstra on each warrior. 12 of them have no-venom cannon (heavy bolter). Shock Guard, Exocrines, Impaler Guard must all be cheaper?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Does anyone have the models to run this?


Battalion 1-Jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter. Ymgarl relic and Jorm warlord trait

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 2-jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter.

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 3-Kronos

2x Nuerothrope/w Catalyst, psychic scream, onslaught, paroxyzm

2x rippers
1x rippers with spinefist




No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.

 Niiai wrote:
No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.

I said the third cheapest. And it is. Do the math yourself. It's pretty simple. Or you can just look at the numbers I put up for everyone to read.

As I mentioned, I don't factor in the cost of an Alpha, or the other two warriors. Just the cost of the model vs other models. Even without and alpha, firing at BS4, a VC warrior is still the 8th most cost effective model in our army against T7 3+, within 10% of the effectiveness of Impaler guard, HVC+2x Deathspitter BS3 fex and the rupture cannon tyrannofex.

It's just a matter of VC warriors being WAY cheaper than all of the other platforms.

When you figure in the cost of the full unit, they're not good at all. But, because you can split fire, and because the unit can be used for multiple purposes in 8th edition, that is deceptive. You can be firing every turn with 6 deathspitter warriors at infantry squads, and 3 VC warriors at tanks. You're not wasting any points on shooting tanks with deathspitters, so those 3 VC warriors are performing to maximum efficiency with their guns.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Does anyone have the models to run this?


Battalion 1-Jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter. Ymgarl relic and Jorm warlord trait

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 2-jorm

Malanthrope
Tyrannid prime/w adrenaline and toxic. Boneswords and Deathspitter.

3 squads of 9 warriors/w deathspitters

Battalion 3-Kronos

2x Nuerothrope/w Catalyst, psychic scream, onslaught, paroxyzm

2x rippers
1x rippers with spinefist




No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.

Spoletta wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.

I said the third cheapest. And it is. Do the math yourself. It's pretty simple. Or you can just look at the numbers I put up for everyone to read.

As I mentioned, I don't factor in the cost of an Alpha, or the other two warriors. Just the cost of the model vs other models. Even without and alpha, firing at BS4, a VC warrior is still the 8th most cost effective model in our army against T7 3+, within 10% of the effectiveness of Impaler guard, HVC+2x Deathspitter BS3 fex and the rupture cannon tyrannofex.

It's just a matter of VC warriors being WAY cheaper than all of the other platforms.

When you figure in the cost of the full unit, they're not good at all. But, because you can split fire, and because the unit can be used for multiple purposes in 8th edition, that is deceptive. You can be firing every turn with 6 deathspitter warriors at infantry squads, and 3 VC warriors at tanks. You're not wasting any points on shooting tanks with deathspitters, so those 3 VC warriors are performing to maximum efficiency with their guns.

I agree with this reasoning, especially now that those deathspitters are range 24".

I love warriors as AT, they are durable, long range and mobile.
Exochrine is really good mathwise, but being range 24" immobile is not always practical. Now that assault armies are on the rise (tyranids were the first, now it comes blood angels and chaos demons), range 24" will carry a serious risk of being assaulted.

changemod wrote:
Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?

 Niiai wrote:
I thought you said best, not 3rd best. It must be my dyslexia.

I amm all for warriors. I even thought they where good in the index before the decrase in devourers and upgrade and increase in wennom cannon. Swords even became cheaper.

I do think it is a fallocy not counting the prime though. The prime is not so impressive by himself. It has a bad range option, deathspitter onlyr , and only rending claws or boneswords in CC, and no psykick powers. Big brother tyrant, neuronthrope and broodlord all outperform him. You are only taking prime if you take warriors. And only 15/18 of them before he starts becoming cheap. You need a considerable amount of your list dedicated for it. Mind you warriors has a lot going for them. But the other heavy weapon platforms you can often just jam into any list more or less.

If you want a small 3 man group of 2 regular and 1 venom cannon you can just take the carnifex with deathspitters and heavy venom cannon. Even though it is exspensive you can argue the same deathspitters can fire at something else. The flat 3 damage is very nice on the heavy venom cannon. (Although exoshrine with damage stratgem can do the same.)