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Drager wrote:
I was just thinking about Neurothropes. 5 is 350 and, with Jormungandr can drop within 18" for nice smiting fun. That's 6d3 a turn, so about 12MW. Pretty nice. They are also pretty durable with W5 and the ability to heal a whole bunch back each turn on whichever ones are wounded, 1 wound healed per kill, so I would expect that your injured thrope will be back to full health every turn. Also once whatever screening units you have brought are dead they can cycle round so different guys are at the front. Any thoughts?

Yeah I think a Jormongandr Supreme Command with a unit of Raveners could add massive Smite spam into a force...off the top of my head, I don't know if you can put Ravs into the Command...so its just an add on to a Jorm main force.

 DaBraken wrote:
Have you tried to put your Horms, warriors and prime around the 2x4 raveners in advance? Because i doubt they will all fit.
Edit:
Nevermind. Warriors are 1,5" bases right? Then it will work out, because you can fit 2 next to each other, side by side with the raveners.

The red terror is also a Ravener keyword. BTW. Packing the warriors in tight he can also fit a warrior blob.

Thoughts on going full slow?
I mean:
Thoughts on going full melee with only multi wound creatures, preferably monsters?
Im thinking something like:

Tyrant with 2x Scything Talons (+ relic) (WL with Behemoth Trait)
Tyrant with Rending Claws (+relic) and Scything Talons
Swarmlord

9 Warriors with Rending Claw/Scything Talons

2 Haruspex

2 Trygon Primes

3 Carnifexes with 2xScything Talons, Bone Mace, Spore Cysts and Tusks.

Everything that can has Adrenal Glands, everything that can except for Warriors has Toxin Sacs.

Drager wrote:
I was just thinking about Neurothropes. 5 is 350 and, with Jormungandr can drop within 18" for nice smiting fun. That's 6d3 a turn, so about 12MW. Pretty nice. They are also pretty durable with W5 and the ability to heal a whole bunch back each turn on whichever ones are wounded, 1 wound healed per kill, so I would expect that your injured thrope will be back to full health every turn. Also once whatever screening units you have brought are dead they can cycle round so different guys are at the front. Any thoughts?

Maguses with a lictor can do this as well.

Drager wrote:
I was just thinking about Neurothropes. 5 is 350 and, with Jormungandr can drop within 18" for nice smiting fun. That's 6d3 a turn, so about 12MW. Pretty nice. They are also pretty durable with W5 and the ability to heal a whole bunch back each turn on whichever ones are wounded, 1 wound healed per kill, so I would expect that your injured thrope will be back to full health every turn. Also once whatever screening units you have brought are dead they can cycle round so different guys are at the front. Any thoughts?

Its 5 cp to spend...

Beeing in cover behind the raveners as characters should be okay, but can be a fast end to them as well...
can work if the army is build to support this playstyle. This bomb should not been thrown unsupported into the enemy lines.

 Niiai wrote:
Maguses with a lictor can do this as well.

Its still 5 cp AND a lictor which has to survive. In my meta it doesnt matter what i put into reserves, if there is a Lictor, hes dead if in line of sight. Donst ask me why my opponents hate them that much, but what do YOU do if your lictor is killed? Ambush the Magi as usual and hope for good results?

As it is written now you can place the lictor the same turn as you use the stratagem.

It is unclear weather this is the intension, or wether it is the intension for cult units to ride the lictor. Ride the lictor sounds like a good 80's cover come to think of it.

I am not saying it is good, and Neuron are usually better then magus. But if you consider doing it you don't need Jorm. Doing this turn 2 or 3 after kraken genestealers reach the opponent could be quite fun.

...I was about to reply to @DaBraken that you can just bring on your Lictor *at the end of your movement phase* and immediately afterwards your (for instance) Zoanthrope unit that was in Reserves.

BUT now I can’t find where the BRB says that, in Matched play, the ‘roll a 3+ to bring on Reserves’ rule from where the Reserves rule is first described is ignored.

This edition’s rulebook is a headache. We don’t have simplified core rules, we have core rules that are front-loaded for a demo game and then everything else is scattered around with no map.

With the price drops in the codex my Warriors list is shifting to:

Battalion
T-Prime, boneswords
T-Prime, boneswords
Warriors (7) 5w/Deathspitters, 2 w/Boneswords
Warriors (7) 5w/Deathspitters, 2 w/Boneswords
Warriors (7) 5w/Deathspitters, 2 w/Boneswords

Battallion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
Warriors (7) 5w/Deathspitters, 2 w/Boneswords
Warriors (7) 5w/Deathspitters, 2 w/Boneswords
Warriors (7) 5w/Deathspitters, 2 w/Boneswords

Battallion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
Warriors (7) 5w/Deathspitters, 2 w/Boneswords
Warriors (7) 5w/Deathspitters, 2 w/Boneswords
Warriors (7) 4w/Deathspitters, 3 w/Boneswords

2,000 on the dot. Jorm.

This list is kinda weak. Without a malanthrope defending your warriors or raveners to stick some in deep strike its almost doomed to fail againgst gunlines and vehicle heavy lists.

It'll work againgst all infantry lists though.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
This list is kinda weak. Without a malanthrope defending your warriors or raveners to stick some in deep strike its almost doomed to fail againgst gunlines and vehicle heavy lists.

It'll work againgst all infantry lists though.

Haha. It's not intended to be hypercompetetive, it's intended to be the first collection of things I paint, and have a strong theme. Once I've got all those models complete I'll expand out depending on models i want and what I feel will help out in my local meta.

Genestealers are in the pipe after I finish the Warriors, then something more appropriate for Jorm. Raveners, Trygons, or maybe just Tyrannocytes because I like the model. We'll see.

Ahh in that case just let your opponent know that its a fun list meant to not play againgst a lot of vehicles.


I personally want to run this jorm list and watch my opponents looks.

+++ Zoan Bomb (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [109 PL, 2000pts] +++

++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Tyranids) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Jormungandr

+ HQ +

Malanthropes: Malanthrope

Neurothrope

Neurothrope

+ Troops +

Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm

Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm

Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm

Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm

Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm

Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm

+ Elites +

The Red Terror

Zoanthropes: 4x Zoanthrope

Zoanthropes: 4x Zoanthrope

Zoanthropes: 4x Zoanthrope

+ Fast Attack +

Mucolid Spores: Mucolid Spore

Mucolid Spores: Mucolid Spore

Raveners
. Ravener: Devourer, 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: Deathspitter, 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: Deathspitter, 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: Deathspitter, 2x Scything Talons

+ Heavy Support +

Biovores: 2x Biovore

Biovores: 2x Biovore

Biovores: Biovore

Biovores: Biovore

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Tyranids) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Jormungandr

+ HQ +

Neurothrope

Neurothrope

Neurothrope

+ Lord of War +

Barbed Hierodule: Massive Scything Talons






3 squads of zoans and 2 nuero's in the tunnels below. Ravenors and The Red Terror bring them in so i can blow the psychich blast strat on them my first turn. Really mess's up characters and vehicles. Ravenors shoot up infantry, Biovores move a squidge to try to spawn spores on purpouse to mess up movement and prevent a countercharge. Malanthrope and other neuros advance and hang with the heirodule in the homefield.

Seems like alot of fun. Sure i end up spending 8 CP first turn i go, but i had 13 to start with and do alot of dmg.

Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!

 lindsay40k wrote:
Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!

And kinda samey, in that context?

Looks like, whilst certainly deathspitters and boneswords are the clear efficient choice, the force is going to look very homogenous as a result.

changemod wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!

And kinda samey, in that context?

Looks like, whilst certainly deathspitters and boneswords are the clear efficient choice, the force is going to look very homogenous as a result.

It's all the old Warriors from 20+ years ago. Shameless plug: see my sig.

Long story short, I wanted an army where the basic troops were bigger than Primaris marines. The old Warriors are taller than the new ones, too.

 Insectum7 wrote:

changemod wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!

And kinda samey, in that context?

Looks like, whilst certainly deathspitters and boneswords are the clear efficient choice, the force is going to look very homogenous as a result.

It's all the old Warriors from 20+ years ago. Shameless plug: see my sig.

Long story short, I wanted an army where the basic troops were bigger than Primaris marines. The old Warriors are taller than the new ones, too.

WHOA. So you’re the reason I can’t find any to expand my three Hive Guard I built from my old ‘90s Warriors

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

changemod wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!

And kinda samey, in that context?

Looks like, whilst certainly deathspitters and boneswords are the clear efficient choice, the force is going to look very homogenous as a result.

It's all the old Warriors from 20+ years ago. Shameless plug: see my sig.

Long story short, I wanted an army where the basic troops were bigger than Primaris marines. The old Warriors are taller than the new ones, too.

WHOA. So you’re the reason I can’t find any to expand my three Hive Guard I built from my old ‘90s Warriors

I nabbed a bunch early-mid summer, but I'm good for now. I still check ebay out of curiosity though, and there's 15 or so up at the moment if you're interested. Including a group of nine, though if you look closely I think they're missing some of the secondary claws.

How many wounds does an Exocrine / Tyranofex do to a big thing? How about the humble Biovore? Now that the codex is out proper I think this is worth investigating.

Tfex vs. Standard Big Thing (SBT) = 6 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.67x3.5 = approx 6 damage. All for 238pts That's 6.3 biovores (Granted, the Tfex damage can be extremely swingy)

Exocrine vs SBT (T7) = 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 6.7 damage. All for 6 Biovores.

6 Biovores. Or 3 MW (I think the math means the roll of the 1 = 0MW cancels out the roll of a 6 = d3 MW) and 3 placed mines which is 3 future potential MW. (Okay yes I know technically 1 in 6 will fail to wound, but I'm effectively ignoring the 1vs6 result, which does artifically inflate the placed mines figure, I acknowledge)

Apply Single Mind Annihilation (which will sadly only cover 1 of the 2 3-strong Biovore squads) and you're looking at 4.5 MW and 4.5 placed mines. For any non-fly mode, 5 or 6 placed mines means that unit is now going nowhere in the movement phase. Even 3 would make it difficult to move. Also these are MW so ignore all invulnerable saves or saves improved by cover etc (+1 cover save reduces a Tfex to 4.5 damage).

Approx double the wounds in Biovores compared to the other big MC, no degrading profile (but you can loose models), great range, no LOS needed. Granted the MC's wreck smaller vehicles and weaker targets more handily, the Biovore damage is static. Dealing with SBT's is the issue here.

So the range is excellent and what sets is apart from smite/scream, which is the direct comparison (72pts = 2 biovores, 1MW average or 1 Neuronthrope smite slinger). We've established above per point they compete with the 'heavy guns' vs SBT's. So How many is useful.. 12, maybe too much. 6? 3?

You also have the option to move them to increase the odds for spore placement to help with zoning (Also firing outside Synapse but that will be tricky to pull off and be useful). It is not bulletproof, you can very easily shoot off the mines but it does require it or slow/deny/change movement.

Also a quick check tells me they also compete with hive guard, point for point (against SBT'S at least), however it seems Hive Guard (even at small 3-strong) make better use of Single Minded Annhilation, so will wreck face with a full squad (i.e. on that basis, 6 HG are the 'best', but also a chunky bullet magnet).

SBT = T7/8 3+ lots of wounds, no ++ .. or bigger!

Is it too much to hope that they fix a few of our codex points costs with chapter approved?

Zoenthropes are point for point inferior to Neurothropes, and Maleceptors are basically worse Hive Tyrants. Our Fliers seem too expensive for their abilities, and the Tervigon is laughably expensive for what it can do. Venomthropes need something as well. Either a points drop or a strategem/rule that makes them untargetable for a turn. I'm still iffy on the Haurospex, Toxicrine, and Trygons, though they are probably in a better place than the other units I've already mentioned.

 lindsay40k wrote:
BUT now I can’t find where the BRB says that, in Matched play, the ‘roll a 3+ to bring on Reserves’ rule from where the Reserves rule is first described is ignored.

The rule you are thinking of is only for certain Narrative missions, wherein a portion of the army is set up off table. In the core rules the ability to set up off table is referred to as "Reinforcements" and is restricted to units with special deployment rules only.

tag8833 wrote:
Is it too much to hope that they fix a few of our codex points costs with chapter approved?

Zoenthropes are point for point inferior to Neurothropes, and Maleceptors are basically worse Hive Tyrants. Our Fliers seem too expensive for their abilities, and the Tervigon is laughably expensive for what it can do. Venomthropes need something as well. Either a points drop or a strategem/rule that makes them untargetable for a turn. I'm still iffy on the Haurospex, Toxicrine, and Trygons, though they are probably in a better place than the other units I've already mentioned.

Agree on all fronts, but it would be exceedingly premature to release a points adjustment 2 weeks after the original codex drops. I’m sure there will be an FAQ soon, as well as errata with points value adjustments if need be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Posted a bat rep that you guys might be interested in (was actually 2 games but the first one was over so fast that it was really more like 1.5 games)

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/745217.page#9711721

TLDR: Nids are great and can beat competitive IG. I am very happy because we could not do this in the index. I am pretty certain that I won’t ever leave Home without Kraken (and not just because I can yell “RELEASE THE KRAKEN!”)

Jormungdr Devilgants. Yes please

Kraken’s mobility is unprecedented, and that is a big deal in this meta.

I can’t seem to find points for a Kronos firebase, but my list is pretty single-minded. GET IT?!

I really really want to try out the Acid Spray Tfex. Someone please convince me to do so.

Don’t leave Home without 10+ CP. our stratagems are just way too good.

Good rep. I agree with all of your assessments.

I think Swarmlord is critical in a lot of matchups, even if he's super expensive. One thing I really like is that his ability is in the shooting phase. I've had situations where I advanced hormagaunts to get a better charge range, but failed onslaught and couldn't even try the longer charge. Swarmlord will always know what has onslaught before he procs his ability, so if you were considering double moving him, you are never risking it.

My biggest issue is that going full reserves like this is very risky if you face an army with a lot more screening units, particularly those that can push you back, like rangers or scouts. Using dev gants and neurothropes to clear enough space for the GS + Swarmlord will definitely work often, but I'm not convinced it will be reliable enough for every game. I also dislike being forced to bring both stealer units in offset, but Trygons are expensive and not particularly durable, and swarmlord affords you the ability to ensure they get where they need to go (as long as he's alive).

On the other hand, I don't think there is a list we can build that is going to be able to win every single game, every single time.

Whether it's a swarmlord+GS combo, or 150+ body overload, I do think we have a very competitive army that can absolutely win against the vast majority of matchups. I think there are multiple styles of play that will allow us to do so. Even a tyranid swarm/shooty army can be competitive, I think, taking advantage of our board control and ability to overwhelm opponents.

I also think that we need at least 9 CP, and getting a brigade is borderline mandatory. Running 2 battalions I am almost always out of CP by the end of my 2, going in to 3 with maybe 1-2 CP left, and there were situations I could have gotten a lot more work done with an adrenaline rush or double tap. It's just sometimes hard to find the points to make it all fit. We have SO MANY good units, and so many units that need to be taken together in specific fleets... it all gets very difficult to make work.

But I digress, I'm glad to see a swarmlord build looking good. The more versatility in builds we have, the less likely we are to get pushed out of the meta.

I agree that the challenge of synergizing units and fleets is a huge appeal to Nids right now. Like you said, there is no autowin button, which is good. But there seem to be several highly competitive builds, which is great.

I'm curious what you guys think about the new Swarmlord rules. I've got a few locals that love swarmlord. Like unreasoning, unthinking head over heels love. And I've played against them a bunch, and am fairly certain I have never seen a swarmlord make it's points or live past turn 2. None of my armies (Orks, Inquisition, Blood Angels) were even remotely challenged to kill him. All of those games were pre-codex, so I might be overly discounting the codex buffs.

My read on Swarmlord is:
- He is really expensive (He is usually going to be your most expensive unit).
- He has survivability problems. Either too many or too few wounds. If he had 9 wounds he would be outstanding. If he had 18, he would be really good.
- He doesn't hit as hard as he should. He can't knock a knight down a level. He cant handle other armies beatstick characters like Rowboat or Magnus, and he is even statistically is iffy on killing a rhino in one go.

I think of him on the scale of other 300+ point characters. Rowboat is more durable (thanks to 9 wounds) and way more killy in close combat. Magnus is the same, and also alot more mobile. Mortarian is much the same.

If we compare him to 200+ characters like Ghazgkul (More Durable, similar CC ability). or Be'lakor (More Durable, better CC ability) or Cawl (More Durable, worse CC ability) or Celestein w/ Gemini (Way more durable, a little less CC ability) or Dante (More durable, a little less CC ability) he seems much more in line, though still a standout for a lack of durability.

Overall he just seems like a significantly overcosted choice depending on your valuation of his Hive commander ability. And if you value that highly you are going to gamble on his ability to make use of it.

I've seen Luke's batrep, and watched a few other where swarmy rolled really hot, and or was a command point hog which allowed him to deliver, but I've also seen a few where he gets punked early closer to my own experience..

I wouldn't want to play a list that wins every single game every single time. Where's the fun in that?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!

7 X 9 is 63 not 65

 mondo80 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!

7 X 9 is 63 not 65

Double Prime! 63 + 2 = 65!

 mondo80 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!

7 X 9 is 63 not 65

Pretty sure she was counting the Primes, which normally use the Warrior model.

Technically I have 64, plus 3 custom Primes. 63 are the old plastics, one is the old metal.

I tend to agree on Swarmie. I think a lot of competitive lists remove him turn 1, he has a low defense/value ratio. He almost requires Tyrant Guard, imo. I'd rather have his points in units, though he can completely dictate a game, if not outright win for you. But I tend to think that won't happen against the really good players, which is when I need it most.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Good rep. I agree with all of your assessments.

I think Swarmlord is critical in a lot of matchups, even if he's super expensive. One thing I really like is that his ability is in the shooting phase. I've had situations where I advanced hormagaunts to get a better charge range, but failed onslaught and couldn't even try the longer charge. Swarmlord will always know what has onslaught before he procs his ability, so if you were considering double moving him, you are never risking it.

My biggest issue is that going full reserves like this is very risky if you face an army with a lot more screening units, particularly those that can push you back, like rangers or scouts. Using dev gants and neurothropes to clear enough space for the GS + Swarmlord will definitely work often, but I'm not convinced it will be reliable enough for every game. I also dislike being forced to bring both stealer units in offset, but Trygons are expensive and not particularly durable, and swarmlord affords you the ability to ensure they get where they need to go (as long as he's alive).

On the other hand, I don't think there is a list we can build that is going to be able to win every single game, every single time.

Whether it's a swarmlord+GS combo, or 150+ body overload, I do think we have a very competitive army that can absolutely win against the vast majority of matchups. I think there are multiple styles of play that will allow us to do so. Even a tyranid swarm/shooty army can be competitive, I think, taking advantage of our board control and ability to overwhelm opponents.

I also think that we need at least 9 CP, and getting a brigade is borderline mandatory. Running 2 battalions I am almost always out of CP by the end of my 2, going in to 3 with maybe 1-2 CP left, and there were situations I could have gotten a lot more work done with an adrenaline rush or double tap. It's just sometimes hard to find the points to make it all fit. We have SO MANY good units, and so many units that need to be taken together in specific fleets... it all gets very difficult to make work.

But I digress, I'm glad to see a swarmlord build looking good. The more versatility in builds we have, the less likely we are to get pushed out of the meta.

Agree with a lot of this. I run double battalions and get 9cp and burn through them by turn 3 normally. I have found the lictor phermone trails with Genestealers to character hunt is a good way to get extra CP off the Feeder tendrils. I did this got 3 CP, then did overrun and fight again stratagems. The CP are definitely valuable foir sure!

Swarmy is good, due to his HIve commander ability, he does seem a bit expensive, and or I wish he was 9 wounds, or pumped up to 15+, or points drop. But time will tell.

xmbk wrote:
I tend to agree on Swarmie. I think a lot of competitive lists remove him turn 1, he has a low defense/value ratio. He almost requires Tyrant Guard, imo. I'd rather have his points in units, though he can completely dictate a game, if not outright win for you. But I tend to think that won't happen against the really good players, which is when I need it most.

He absolutely requires Tyrant Guard. And he’s almost certainly worth it all.

The thing with the Tyranids is that they’re an all-encompassing organism. The further you go towards a synergy list, the less useful ‘makes its points back’ becomes as an indicator. And Tyranids are THE synergy army, more than any other (with the possible exception of Epidemius lists). Guilliman can never once swing his dad’s sword and yet still be a lynchpin of a victory through the buffs he confers, and Swarmlord, whilst being a slightly superior melee Tyrant, is also the only thing in the entire game AFAIK that can GUARANTEE a second move, entirely on your terms, with zero CP expenditure.

He is the way you get thirty Hormagaunts to engage half a dozen gunner units. Even if they are Ultramarines, if you have a Malanthrope you’ve halved their firepower - and made overcharged Plasma unthinkable.

If you’re having a footslogging Tyrant, it’s tricky to make the case to cut that out and make it a generic unnamed one.