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Basically, it looks like our AT gunners are pretty well balanced, and the main thing is how well they work with your army as a whole, rather than which one is currently undercosted and worth building an army around as afterthoughts. Can't really complain about that

I've been messing about with a little code in my spare time at work, it should spit out average damage and the probability of causing x or more wounds (or a more complete table) based on parameters entered. Got variable numbers of shots in there already, need to add variable damage (won't take too long) and should probably add invulns at some point. Reckon I have an hour or two more work on it, however, I have no idea how to share it. It's ORACLE SQL code as that is what I had to hand to write in. If anyone wants it I can send the code across, its only 75 lines now, probably 100 when finished. Output looks like this:

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.5 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 18%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 70%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 70%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 88%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 89%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 68%"

Would it be useful to output the guns stats as well or would that get too busy?

I got some games in last weekend.

I played a local RTT, then a few games the next day, for a total of 5 games.

I ran Kraken + Kronos. My goal was to find out how tyranofexes actually played on the table, and to try out the gaunt bomb.

My Kraken battalion was: Broodlord, Neurothrope, Neurothrope,19 stealer, 19 stealer, 30 gants with devourers, trygon. My Kronos was a patrol: Neurothrope, Rupturefex, Rupturefex, 6 impaler Hive Guard.

I played against Poxwalkers+ Magus, Wolves, IG armored company, and IG Shadowsword in reserve. I switched the Hive Guard for a 3rd Rupturefex against the armored company, and played two games against the Shadowsword, one with 3 'fexes, one with 2 'fexes and the Hive Guard.

I really like the Rupturefexes, I really like the Hive Guard, and I think the Kronos gunline is really strong, BUT, getting value out of any of them requires a major investment in points. The gant bomb was the same way: major impact on the game, but a big points sink.

I find myself struggling with hard decisions in list building now: do I commit to a strong gunline for 1/3-1/2 of my points? Do I take a weaker Hive Fleet to let me run Raveners instead of the Tyrgon and save points? If I do, is there a way to make 3 Hive Fleets work to maximize rules efficiency without crippling me on CP? This struggle is something I enjoy-it speaks to a well designed Codex with decent internal balance.


I see a lot off different ways to use Kronos, and I think the vast majority of Tyranid builds are going to want to do it. The ability to strongly impact two major parts of the game (shut down key spells + long range shooting) is really useful.

Yeah, still "early days" but I think matched play will shake out to: Krakon speed rush, Behemoth DS, Kronos Gunline, and Jormongandr Gunline+DS. Then there might be "mix and match", but the benefits of Brigades are so high that most will use them.

Polkadragon wrote:
Right, so I'm decided that my first list is going to be a Kraken - Kronos hybrid. That part is clear.

However, I'm torn about the Swarmlord. On the one hand, he's so fricking expensive, but he also brings almost-guaranteed charges to the table.

I made two Kraken - Kronos lists (2000 points), and would appreciate your thoughts on which list is 'better'. They both seem workable to me.

List 1: no Swarmlord

Kraken Battaillon
- Flyrant, MRC, Miasma Cannon, Adrenal, Toxin Sacs
- Flyrant, MRC, Heavy Venom Cannon, Adrenal, Toxin Sacs
- 20 Genestealers
- 16 Genestealers
- 19 Hormagaunts
- Lictor

Kronos Bataillon
- Neurothrope
- Neurothrope
- 30 Termagaunts
- 3 Ripper Swarms
- 3 Ripper Swarms

Kronos Spearhead
- Malanthrope
- 6 Hive Guard, Impaler Cannons
- Exocrine
- Biovore
- Biovore
- Biovore


List 1: with the Swarmlord

Kraken Battaillon
- Flyrant, MRC, Miasma Cannon, Adrenal, Toxin Sacs
- Swarmlord
- 20 Genestealers
- 15 Genestealers
- 19 Hormagaunts

Kronos Bataillon
- Neurothrope
- Neurothrope
- 19 Termagaunts
- 3 Ripper Swarms
- 3 Ripper Swarms

Kronos Spearhead
- Malanthrope
- 6 Hive Guard, Impaler Cannons
- Exocrine
- Biovore
- Biovore
- Biovore


Throughts? The second list basically gives up 11 Termagaunts, a Lictor and a Genestealer to switch one Flyrant for the Swarmlord.

Hey look my list!

If your going to run almost a carbon copy of my GT list (which, sigh I guess was inevitable someone would) then understand the concept.
Swarmlord is deadweight in this list. The object is to protect the gunline and distract your opponent with the combat units whilst retaining the combat ability to bother superior gunlines. With all your deployment and movement options you don’t need a 300pt double move.

Honestly the Swarmlord is dead weight in just about every Nid list. I have yet to find a situation where taking the Swarmlord to move a unit is better than just taking multiple units to send in.

 jifel wrote:
Honestly the Swarmlord is dead weight in just about every Nid list. I have yet to find a situation where taking the Swarmlord to move a unit is better than just taking multiple units to send in.

Is this a common opinion?

I think the majority of the time, the second unit will play out better, however, with a list completely built around null deployment, the swarmlord opens up guaranteed charges in a way nothing else in our army can.

So, to say he's dead weight 100% of the time is a complete fallacy. A second unit of GS deep striking is not the same as a swarmlord allowing a single unit to move after deep striking 9-14 (Or 10-20)" and then freely charge anything.

You can absolutely build a viable list around it, and we had a good set of battle reports just in the last few pages where someone did basically exactly that.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
I think the majority of the time, the second unit will play out better, however, with a list completely built around null deployment, the swarmlord opens up guaranteed charges in a way nothing else in our army can.

So, to say he's dead weight 100% of the time is a complete fallacy. A second unit of GS deep striking is not the same as a swarmlord allowing a single unit to move after deep striking 9-14 (Or 10-20)" and then freely charge anything.

You can absolutely build a viable list around it, and we had a good set of battle reports just in the last few pages where someone did basically exactly that.

Yes, the first turn charge is key, but the flexibility of an army with the SL that man make use of this ability turn after turn is huge imo.

 killerpenguin wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Honestly the Swarmlord is dead weight in just about every Nid list. I have yet to find a situation where taking the Swarmlord to move a unit is better than just taking multiple units to send in.

Is this a common opinion?

It's not a common opinion, but it's not exactly rare either. This isn't the word of god or an absolute truth, but I believe that the Swarmlord with delivery cost is just way too prohibitive. You can build a list to make the Swarmlord more efficient than in others, but I frankly do not believe that any of our best lists will include him. I'll also bet money that the best Nids list at LVO will not include the Swarmlord. My "problem" with the Swarmlord is that I can take two Behemoth Flyrants with AG and MRC/Devourers for less than the Swarmlord in his pod. And frankly we have good delivery systems for most of our melee units that we would want to get in there anyways. Kraken Stealers are plenty fast, and AG/Behemoth gives us very nice odds when on a few units.

Now to be fair, I am 100% with sneggy in that the best lists will be a gunline element with lots of units that can tie up the enemy and prevent them from effectively engaging our guns, and just enough melee to outdo an opposing gunline. I was running a similar concept in index (although I did sneak in some Guard allies to help the gunline part...) and had a lot of fun with it. I think pure Nids can do it now. Swarmlord may have a place in a less gunline oriented list that tries to get all up in your opponents grill, but I personally think that too many armies have scout/push back units to really make that list good.

 jifel wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Honestly the Swarmlord is dead weight in just about every Nid list. I have yet to find a situation where taking the Swarmlord to move a unit is better than just taking multiple units to send in.

Is this a common opinion?

It's not a common opinion, but it's not exactly rare either. This isn't the word of god or an absolute truth, but I believe that the Swarmlord with delivery cost is just way too prohibitive. You can build a list to make the Swarmlord more efficient than in others, but I frankly do not believe that any of our best lists will include him. I'll also bet money that the best Nids list at LVO will not include the Swarmlord. My "problem" with the Swarmlord is that I can take two Behemoth Flyrants with AG and MRC/Devourers for less than the Swarmlord in his pod. And frankly we have good delivery systems for most of our melee units that we would want to get in there anyways. Kraken Stealers are plenty fast, and AG/Behemoth gives us very nice odds when on a few units.

Now to be fair, I am 100% with sneggy in that the best lists will be a gunline element with lots of units that can tie up the enemy and prevent them from effectively engaging our guns, and just enough melee to outdo an opposing gunline. I was running a similar concept in index (although I did sneak in some Guard allies to help the gunline part...) and had a lot of fun with it. I think pure Nids can do it now. Swarmlord may have a place in a less gunline oriented list that tries to get all up in your opponents grill, but I personally think that too many armies have scout/push back units to really make that list good.

Yep, came to the same conclusion.
Null Deploy Gunline, with deepstriking flyrants and using the genestealers to push back/tie up/chase down opponent line.

Kraken Battalion
3x Flyrant AG TS Dev MRC

3x 15 Genestealers

Lictor


Kronos Battalon
2x1 Neurothropes

3x3 Rippers

5/3/3 Hive Guards

2x1 Biovores

40 min till first round. Heres some of the armies that are here already.

Portal GT https://imgur.com/gallery/BOaNT

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
40 min till first round. Heres some of the armies that are here already.

Portal GT https://imgur.com/gallery/BOaNT

Good luck.

Seeing a good mumber of nids. I think 5 of us so far. Lots of superheavies and chaos. Only seen one Eldar.

tells us your bat reps.

Have fun!

I was thinking of using Kronos with 90 termagants and a tervigon for a recycling screen for my gun line. This would protect two rupturefexs and a unit of 6 hiveguard (for double shoot start) a lictor as a GS taxi for backfield pressure and a neuron plus venomthropes for backfield synapse and alpha protection. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well as soon as I sell my Leviathan painted army :(

CDShaddock wrote:
I was thinking of using Kronos with 90 termagants and a tervigon for a recycling screen for my gun line. This would protect two rupturefexs and a unit of 6 hiveguard (for double shoot start) a lictor as a GS taxi for backfield pressure and a neuron plus venomthropes for backfield synapse and alpha protection. Thoughts?

Never take just one Tervigon, as it is both too easy to kill as an individual and the replenishment isn't as unmanageable for the opponent (with 2 or more Tervigons they have to wipe the Termagant unit or it will more or less come back next turn). Not sure if the Lictor + 'stealer combo is worth it when most of your army is dedicated to shooting. I'd probably look towards using those points for more guns instead. While I actually like Venomthropes with Jorumgandr as front-line shrouding work, for the backfield you are probably better off with a Malanthrope even with the cost hike.

CDShaddock wrote:
Well as soon as I sell my Leviathan painted army :(

Why sell it? Stripping paint doesn't take too much effort if your main concern is having the Hive Fleet match. Plus, Kronos is mostly dark colors save for the carapace, but red is a very strong color so it should cover up any stained plastic well.

CDShaddock wrote:
I was thinking of using Kronos with 90 termagants and a tervigon for a recycling screen for my gun line. This would protect two rupturefexs and a unit of 6 hiveguard (for double shoot start) a lictor as a GS taxi for backfield pressure and a neuron plus venomthropes for backfield synapse and alpha protection. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well as soon as I sell my Leviathan painted army :(

Low strength will kill your Venomthropes and lascannons will kill off the one Tervigon on t1 then they’ll charge into your termies. You need hormagaunts or another screen and use the double shooting Strat on one of your units of termies. Thatsmy thought

Replies to above:

We have banned forgeworld in my group so malanthropes are out.

I was thinking using the stealers/lictor as a combo objective grabber/melee distraction to buy time for guns to come to bear. I suppose I could use those points for another tervigon.

I could replace the lictor and venomthropes for a unit of 30 hormagants. Would this leave too susceptible to first turn shooting alpha? My termagants are the screen. I don't really care if they die so long as my shooting is effective.

If I strip everything down more core looks like:
(2) Tervigon
(90) fleshborer termagants
(6) hive guard
(2) rupture fex

This gives me some regenerating screen that takes up 270 sq inches of board space in termagants. Minimum of 24 shots highly efficient shots for around 1500 points. Even with 90 gants this seems kinda elite. Where would go from here? Or should I just try out jormungundir for more resilience?

Dg first round, won 19-3. Trygon ate deredo and leviathan.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Dg first round, won 19-3. Trygon ate deredo and leviathan.

Well done. Keep your cool and ice some dice. :-)

@cd let me know how it goes once you play a game or so

What tourney is this Trace?

CDShaddock wrote:
Replies to above:

We have banned forgeworld in my group so malanthropes are out.

I was thinking using the stealers/lictor as a combo objective grabber/melee distraction to buy time for guns to come to bear. I suppose I could use those points for another tervigon.

I could replace the lictor and venomthropes for a unit of 30 hormagants. Would this leave too susceptible to first turn shooting alpha? My termagants are the screen. I don't really care if they die so long as my shooting is effective.

If I strip everything down more core looks like:
(2) Tervigon
(90) fleshborer termagants
(6) hive guard
(2) rupture fex


This gives me some regenerating screen that takes up 270 sq inches of board space in termagants. Minimum of 24 shots highly efficient shots for around 1500 points. Even with 90 gants this seems kinda elite. Where would go from here? Or should I just try out jormungundir for more resilience?

I ran something similar recently, with the two rupture fexes and the 6 hive guard. I used Kronos. The reroll 1's is too good to pass up with the gunline. I suggest that you add a Neurothrope and 3 Biovores, make a Spearhead with the Hive Guard, 'fexes, Biovores, and Neurothrope, and use a Jormungundir battalion for the Tervigons and 'gaunts. That costs you about 200 points.

This much shooting isn't going to win you games by itself. The big guns will get focused down, figure you will lose one-two monsters per turn but kill one-two major targets a turn. You will need to play the termagants aggressively, using them to grab objectives and charge things once they have screened away any deep strikes/first turn charges. You might want to think about a unit of 'stealers, they will attract a lot of fire, keeping it off the gaunts, and do some damage. You also might want to think about a second Neurothrope-the Tervigons are prone to being killed, leaving your units without synapse.

The portal GT in CT. Something like 40 people, LOTS of high ranking players. Will post more tomorrow.

First rd vs DG, guy who took 2nd at that last tourney I posted about. No morty dg with deredo and levi, 3 bloat drones, typhus, marines and the crazy flamer chars in a rhino, a dp, poxwalkers and nurglings. He came to me and it was a bloodbath. Ended with him having one drone left, I think. 19-3.

2nd rd vs sm, patrick m the guy I faced rd 2 last tourney... this time he had 1 less razorback, but celestine and sister squad. We werent using CA, otherwise his list would have been just about 2200! Another bloodbath, but I failed onslaught turn 1 after double advancing horms 4" from his screens... with a 6 or 7" charge I would have locked 3/5 razorbacks, tac squad and the sisters.... instead I spent all game rolling like gak. My frustration led me to make a few costly mistakes, though in the end I pulled out 10/19 pts. I failed 3x psychic tests even using cp to reroll, and perilsed 3 times. I took 9 wounds from perils. I failed every reserves charge. I made 2/8 flyrant invulns. It was punishing.

3rd rd vs csm. I didnt recognize the player. He had 4 jp lords, 4x10 cultists, 3 spawn, and 7x3 oblits. He made me take first turn. I grabbed the relic and shoved it back behind my lines. He dropped allin on a flabk and wiped all but 1 and 5 horms. Charged the last 5 and wiped them, AND got my 2 near jnfestation nodes. I used assauly hijinks and lucky reserves charges to deal with oblits from that turn on. Won 19-1.

Tomorrow I face Dallas Rapoport, who took 16th at nova open last year. We're currently tied for 7th, tho I had a slightly stronger strength of schedule. He's running bugs, but I'm not sure what his list is. I hate fighting bugs, not because I don't like my chances, just because it's always messy as hell. If I can pull 2 big wins I should end up near the top, there are 3 players with 3 wins, and 3 with 2win/1draw. Not in a terrible position atm.

As for my list... the extra CP have been huge. 2x1 biovore are borderline useless, need more to get mileage out of them, imo. Lictors exist solely to taxi, grab obj, and get overwatched. Mucolids have mostly just been area denial and bullet sponges. Venomthropes are straight up garbage, but their buff is still really important.

Good luck tomorrow. Definitely let us know how it goes, and if you can see if you can get details on the other top-end Nid lists. I saw that Nanavati is also running lists, would be very interested in seeing what he is running.

 jifel wrote:
Good luck tomorrow. Definitely let us know how it goes, and if you can see if you can get details on the other top-end Nid lists. I saw that Nanavati is also running lists, would be very interested in seeing what he is running.

I think I'm running the most horde-y Tyranid list. I've seen a jormungandr list with 6 hive guard and 6 biovores, a 60+ GS list, someone with 1-2 pods and a dimacheron, etc. There's the kronos player I played at the last tourney, he mentioned he's running a Tyrannofex this time. It's a pretty interesting spread.

There are a LOT of superheavies floating around. The top 7 I think is something like; Imperium/AM (tied), Cadian, Alaitoc, SM/CSM (tied), Nids, Nids (tied).

Sounds like a great tourney, good luck tomorrow.

Sounds like that celestine game was pretty rough. Sometimes there is just not much you can do : /

Sounds like a blast! Yeah, when the dice gawds betray you, there is no fixing it.

Chapter aproved abberant with power hammers delivered with a primus and the new genestealer cult stratagem (1 command point.)

Roll 3 dice. Primus allows you to re-roll the dice. 6 dice, hoping to get a 5 or 6. 5 = move 1d6. 6 = full move. The charge.

Each Abberant w. powerhammer is 33 points.
Abberant WS3+ S5 A2.
Power hammer -1 to hit SX2 AP-3 3

You can bring 8 aberants in a group. +1 to hit from Primus.

Is this something to include in a tyranid army? 1 Primus with 8 Abberants is 340 points. Very good chances of alpha strike, or at least deliver the payload intact. Big chanches of 16 S10 3 damage attacks. Should obliterate most big targets.

Much more if you can land might from beyond on them from a 73 point magus. +1 attack and +1 S. (I amunsure if this makes S11 or S12 powe mauls.)

If the opponent has any singel target worth more then 340 points they easaly make their point back. And your opponent needs to deal with them the following round.