Polkadragon wrote:


Biovore
Biovore
Biovore

Sneaky bastards 'missed' the Imperial Knight turn 1 and plopped three Spore Mines in front of him, forcing him to move sideways instead of towards us.
Having the option of either going for Mortal Wounds or putting Spore Mines in the way of nasty units is just great.

 Dynas wrote:
Ok, I think I needs some clarity on this Pheromone Trail FAQ.

Says you can't use it for Genestealer Node Lurk ability

 Dynas wrote:
or for any unit that is added to your army by an ability (so like other stratagems that give us reinforcements.)

 Dynas wrote:
I can still take Genestealers in regular reserve via a Trygon though and then use it though right? Or Hormies or devilgaunts. You just have to find another way to put the unit in reserve.

 Dynas wrote:
Also, is their no way to hold a Broodlord off now, since it cant use the Genestealer nodes, you would basically have to put it with a Trygon taxi.

 Dynas wrote:
I guess, for clarity, What units ARE eligible now for the Lictor Taxi?

Razerous wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?

I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.

Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.

Thoughts?

 luke1705 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?

I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.

Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.

Thoughts?

Not worth the -1 CP.

Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.

Drager wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Ok, I think I needs some clarity on this Pheromone Trail FAQ.

 Dynas wrote:
or for any unit that is added to your army by an ability (so like other stratagems that give us reinforcements.)
Not quite. Any unit added to your army by another unit, so stratagems are fine.

So this just rules out spore mines created by Biovores, Sporecyst, etc...

I guess, for clarity, What units ARE eligible now for the Lictor Taxi?

Only units created with Call the Brood and Endless Swarm I think.

But those require we pay reinforcement points for, so that really sucks. Man they nerfed the crap outta this.

 luke1705 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?

I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.

Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.

Thoughts?

Not worth the -1 CP.

Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.

 Astmeister wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?

I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.

Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.

Thoughts?

Not worth the -1 CP.

Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.

Mucolids have a 6+ Save.
And I think there might be a reason to take an Auxilliary det, if you want to field an understrength unit. Like I said before, a Venomthrope might be worth it.

Drager wrote:
Jorm mucolids have a 5+ save. 1 venomthrope could sometimes be handy.

mcsheehy wrote:
Drager,

Did you account for the differences to hit? 3+ 4+?

Drager wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?

I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.

Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.

Thoughts?

Not worth the -1 CP.

Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.

Mucolids have a 6+ Save.
And I think there might be a reason to take an Auxilliary det, if you want to field an understrength unit. Like I said before, a Venomthrope might be worth it.

Jorm mucolids have a 5+ save. 1 venomthrope could sometimes be handy.

 Lance845 wrote:
No they don't. Mucolids have the Fly keyword. Units with Fly do not gain cover from Jorm.

Razerous wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?

I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.

Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.

Thoughts?

Not worth the -1 CP.

Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.

That's the thing, it's 130pts for filler and +1CP or, as I've already invested a lot of points into a 9CP brigade, the -1 doesn't hurt so much.

I'm agreeing that Nids have great choices to cheaply fill out slots.. I'm planning to leverage that under a Brigade.. but I want to put more-than 1 unit up field turn 1 (that can't innately do it themselves)...Plus trygons aren't cheap! But maybe just +1 Trygon?

wizerdree wrote:
I apologize that this isn't a pure tactics question but are carnifex now only sold in the web exclusive 2-packs?

I'm putting together a shopping list for the holidays and would prefer to buy from my FLGS but part of what I want are 6 fexes. Thanks!

Drager wrote:
What's happening here in London that's special?

Q: If a new unit is added to an army – for example as a result
of the Sporefield or Call the Brood Stratagems – is it part of
a Detachment?
A: No.

Resipsa131 wrote:
Can anyone clarify the Power of the Hive Mind Strategium; Does it allow you to cast a power your psyker doesn't know?
Does it allow your character to cast a power such as smite twice in the same psychic phase?
Or does it simply allow your character to cast a power that it knows in addition to the amount allowed but not any duplicate of any that it has attempted?

Drager wrote:
What is showing up in the Guard lists that people are having issues dealing with? What do these lists look like? Anyone with recent tournament experience mind sharing?

shogun wrote:
[...]

But for tyranids it's hard to get past the first ratlings screen (deploy 18 inch from the enemy), and after that you got the regular infantry bubblewrap to protect the good stuff. If tyranids cannot tie up the shooty units turn 2, they're done.

Drager wrote:

babelfish wrote:

Drager wrote:
The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.

I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.

Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?

Sure. First off let's compare their damage profiles against various targets. In this case, I am assuming that both are in range and stationary. The range difference I'll discuss below.

Super Heavy

Here the rupture cannon is a clear winner, if you are facing a meta replete with knights and titans the Rupture cannon is the better choice and worth the extra 16 points. The Bioplasmic Cannon is by no means bad though and catches up a lot with Pathogenic Slime, getting more of a boost than the Rupture Cannon. Against these targets 2-3 rupture cannons are what you want for certain.

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 2+ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 5.33 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 55%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 3.56 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"

Armour

Tank

Here again, the Rupture Cannon is better, so if the enemy army is overloading on Russ chassis it could be useful, however, unlike with super heavies you don't want more than one, in fact the optimal pair is Rupture Cannon and Exocrine, not wasting killing power or paying more than needed. If you are taking 3 weapon beasts and facing a Russ herd then 2 Rupture Cannon and 1 Exocrine seems best. If you are facing 2-3 heavy chassis then 2 Exocrine and 1 Rupture will get the job done nicely and leave you with other advantages.

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 68%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"


Transport

This is probably the most common vehicle toughness/save combination in 40k at the moment and the Bioplasmic Cannon with pathogenic slime is by far our best bet at totalling one in a single volley, although both it and a slimey Rupture Cannon tie on average damage. I would typically want to shoot this target with 2 things, however, as that will more likely succeed at the kill and in that case, two bioplasmic cannons or two Rupture Cannons is fine, although the Rupture cannon costs more for a very similar performance and much less of a boost with Slime. Very similar performance in this category. I'd probably take 3 Exocrines and a Biovore over 3 Tyrannofex against razorspam.

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 89%"

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 69%"


Infantry

Given the similar performance against armour (except super heavies) this is an important thing to look at, what else can these beasts do? And the answer is simple. Shoot infantry. The Biplasmic Cannon massively out performs at this secondary role.

TEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 7.11 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 74%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"

MEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 1%"

GEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 91%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3.89 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 7%"

Range

The extra 12" of range rarely comes up in most deployment types, either they are 60+" away or within 48", especially if you hold your weapon beasts to deploy after their tanks.

Other COnsiderations

Against super heavy armour, we actually have a different unit in the same price bracket that is better at killing them: Shock Cannon Hive Guard. These have their own set of issues though so are not clearly better (24" range being the big bugbear).


Verdict

Writing this I've actually changed my mind. Whilst taking one or two of the big beasts I'd still go with 2 Exocrine, I'd say with 3 you want to split it 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex. They are much closer than I originally thought. Thanks for getting me to reconsider.

 DaBraken wrote:
I made up my mind after reading the FAQ and tried to make further use of the Sporefield and Pheromone Trail stratagems

For example, the Sporefield stratagem, albeit considered bad.

Q: If a new unit is added to an army – for example as a result
of the Sporefield or Call the Brood Stratagems – is it part of
a Detachment?
A: No.

Yes, we could just buy them regulary, but not doing so reduces the drops we have by 2, in addition to be able to place them just before the game starts to maybe block things noone thought of, because the units didn't exist at that point.
BUT, what to do, when you dont want to use the stratagem after deployment an more? What to do with the 30-180 points unused?

And what could the Pheromone Trail be used for?
I just could imagine to bring spore mines 9" close to the enemy, instead of 12".
Everything else beeing able to go into reserves, but not beeing designated to a special deployment style can freely deepstrike whereever it wants, without the Pheromone Trail anyways... weird stratagem now...

For both these I had an idea, although its sure not the best way to burn cps and points.
180 Points would be a complete unit of 30 Gargoyles replenished via 'Endless Swarm', beeing able to come near a Liktor.
Sure, why not just buying them in the first place... but this would be a way to summon whole troops after turn 3, wich is coonsidered to be safe mentioned deepstrike and such. And it reduces the drops by 1.
Could this be a use for 3cps and 180 points not spent up front?
Maybe its really just mere crap now after FAQ, I dont know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resipsa131 wrote:
Can anyone clarify the Power of the Hive Mind Strategium; Does it allow you to cast a power your psyker doesn't know?
Does it allow your character to cast a power such as smite twice in the same psychic phase?
Or does it simply allow your character to cast a power that it knows in addition to the amount allowed but not any duplicate of any that it has attempted?

I would say the latter. It just increases the amount of powers cast by one. Why would he be able to cast a power he doesnt know?
Can be usefull when having a big need for a special power (for example catalyst) and having a very good target for smite in addition.
Its only usefull for units, who know more powers than they can cast, like Tyrants, Swarmlord, or Zoanthropes with 1-3 models.

Edit:
Can someone explain to me, why i ever should use the 'Call the Brood' stratagem? 3cps for 5 genestealers as single unit? Is there some weird constellation where it is usefull enough to hold the points in reserve? Like grabbing an objective, unoccupied near a remaining node?

C4790M wrote:

Spoiler:

 DaBraken wrote:
I made up my mind after reading the FAQ and tried to make further use of the Sporefield and Pheromone Trail stratagems

For example, the Sporefield stratagem, albeit considered bad.

Q: If a new unit is added to an army – for example as a result
of the Sporefield or Call the Brood Stratagems – is it part of
a Detachment?
A: No.

Yes, we could just buy them regulary, but not doing so reduces the drops we have by 2, in addition to be able to place them just before the game starts to maybe block things noone thought of, because the units didn't exist at that point.
BUT, what to do, when you dont want to use the stratagem after deployment an more? What to do with the 30-180 points unused?

And what could the Pheromone Trail be used for?
I just could imagine to bring spore mines 9" close to the enemy, instead of 12".
Everything else beeing able to go into reserves, but not beeing designated to a special deployment style can freely deepstrike whereever it wants, without the Pheromone Trail anyways... weird stratagem now...

For both these I had an idea, although its sure not the best way to burn cps and points.
180 Points would be a complete unit of 30 Gargoyles replenished via 'Endless Swarm', beeing able to come near a Liktor.
Sure, why not just buying them in the first place... but this would be a way to summon whole troops after turn 3, wich is coonsidered to be safe mentioned deepstrike and such. And it reduces the drops by 1.
Could this be a use for 3cps and 180 points not spent up front?
Maybe its really just mere crap now after FAQ, I dont know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resipsa131 wrote:
Can anyone clarify the Power of the Hive Mind Strategium; Does it allow you to cast a power your psyker doesn't know?
Does it allow your character to cast a power such as smite twice in the same psychic phase?
Or does it simply allow your character to cast a power that it knows in addition to the amount allowed but not any duplicate of any that it has attempted?

I would say the latter. It just increases the amount of powers cast by one. Why would he be able to cast a power he doesnt know?
Can be usefull when having a big need for a special power (for example catalyst) and having a very good target for smite in addition.
Its only usefull for units, who know more powers than they can cast, like Tyrants, Swarmlord, or Zoanthropes with 1-3 models.

Edit:
Can someone explain to me, why i ever should use the 'Call the Brood' stratagem? 3cps for 5 genestealers as single unit? Is there some weird constellation where it is usefull enough to hold the points in reserve? Like grabbing an objective, unoccupied near a remaining node?

Something I've been considering is using Hydra and reserving 180 points. That's enough for a full sporefield strat or 15 stealers, a full gant squad w/ 50% devs, a full hormagaunt squad, a full gargoyle squad, a 4 man zoanthrope squad, a 6 man warrior squad w/ DS/BS, a squad of hive or tyrant guard, a large squad of venomthropes, a full pyrovore/biovore squad, or a large ravener squad.
You could even bring back the Red Terror/Deathleaper/Broodlord if you wanted. While you could just run another squad of X, this gives you the flexibility to bring back whatever you need the most depending on the situation.

 DaBraken wrote:

shogun wrote:
[...]

But for tyranids it's hard to get past the first ratlings screen (deploy 18 inch from the enemy), and after that you got the regular infantry bubblewrap to protect the good stuff. If tyranids cannot tie up the shooty units turn 2, they're done.

What rules force you to stay 18" away from the enemy with deepstriking units and such?

Edit:
I found some opponents do you a favor with the screens. One of my last games, my opponent made his screens with max coherency. So i charged through between the models and consolidated further in his lines.
After the game I wasnt sure anymore if this is a legal move.

Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?