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To be honest, I think I've gotten into close combat turn 1 in every single game that I have deployed my Genestealers instead of reserving them, purely on the merits of being Kraken and using the advance twice Strat. I just feel like that for $228 and a cp is much better than investing in Swarmy.

Swarmlord just doesnt do enough, if you are using a Low unit lists with large units, some units like Shrieks, i could see it.

I personally dont like him for the cost, i'd rather just have a Hive Tyrant and some extra Genestealers.

You guys can argue your taste re: swarmlord, but as it stands, two of the top players in the country are using him without guard/pod, without devourer gaunts, from the backfield, specifically to torpedo stealers into enemies.

 Niiai wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
At my last GT, 2 of the 3 top tyranid lists were playing swarmlord with no pod or guards. They relied on using LOS blocking terrain to keep him alive.

He'll be fine with 3 guard, for at least 1-2 turns, if you don't play him aggressively.

I saw one of those lists. It waw more focused on board controll than yours. Making him come to you.

You've got it backwards. My list is entirely about board control, their lists were about wiping out the enemy with stealer torpedos and mass hive guard fire. My list is ~150 bodies, designed to keep the opponent from ever leaving their deployment zone, and if they do, enveloping them and preventing them from scoring through attrition.

Swarmlord definitely isn't a bad unit by any means. He does provide exceptional utility, I just think he lends himself to an aggressive playstyle. Also, this may be a meta thing because my area tends to have more reserves and flier based armies than most, both of which the Swarmlord isn't nearly as good against. Swarmlord does his best work when launching Genestealers into a gunline of cowering guardsmen or marines and overrunning them. If the enemy flies or is going to DS with hundreds of storm Bolter shots, that's not quite as effective.

I mean, I don't think he's an auto-take, nor do I think he fits into my style of play. My point is, there are good players who think he IS an auto-take. If you're of the opinion that he's not worth taking at all, then I think you should be re-evaluating your opinion. He enables a very specific playstyle in a way that nothing else does. If you can't see the value in swarmlord, then you should try playing him.

I played about a dozen games with Swarmlord. He always did a lot or nothing at all. He does enable a specific playstyle more than anything else in the book, I just think that playstyle has a small number of hard counters. I try to play a more all around list without a blind spot like that. It's not as good at crushing a gunline as a Swarmy list I'll admit. But, back in 7th I played a Genestealer cult army that could destroy anything except Tau, or Servo Skulls. The last GT of 7th I played three consecutive Tau and servo skulls lists!

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
I mean, I don't think he's an auto-take, nor do I think he fits into my style of play. My point is, there are good players who think he IS an auto-take. If you're of the opinion that he's not worth taking at all, then I think you should be re-evaluating your opinion. He enables a very specific playstyle in a way that nothing else does. If you can't see the value in swarmlord, then you should try playing him.

I see the value and why/how to play him, i still dont like him nor play with him. My lists dont need him or want him, sure turn one charges are good, but we can do that without a 300pt model. Just b.c one high score nid player likes him doesnt mean he is an auto take.

I agree with you. I think Tyranids biggest strength is board control. If the smite nerf hadn't come through, I may have gone to a 4-5 neurothrope army with nothing but infantry models.

As it is, we have no HQ that provides all of the things a flyrant does, for anywhere near the cost. Broodlord hits a little harder in combat, but only gets 1 cast, no shooting and no fly. While still costing almost as much. Primes are just sad. They're nowhere near as hard hitting as flyrants or broodlords, have no casts, and are slower.

So, I feel stuck using flyrants, as they're the only HQ that fills the roles I need it to, now that casting smite 4+ times is going to start getting pretty rough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
I mean, I don't think he's an auto-take, nor do I think he fits into my style of play. My point is, there are good players who think he IS an auto-take. If you're of the opinion that he's not worth taking at all, then I think you should be re-evaluating your opinion. He enables a very specific playstyle in a way that nothing else does. If you can't see the value in swarmlord, then you should try playing him.

I see the value and why/how to play him, i still dont like him nor play with him. My lists dont need him or want him, sure turn one charges are good, but we can do that without a 300pt model. Just b.c one high score nid player likes him doesnt mean he is an auto take.

If you think all he does is enable turn 1 charges, you don't understand how he works.

So I played the Swarmlord Kraken/Kronos list last night against a tough IG list with the terrible long deployment (Hammer and Anvil). Given that I did not have a Trygon to deep strike near his zone with stealers, and my antitank was underwhelming, it was a tough game and a slight loss.

I was conservative with the swarmlord because I was like 35-40 inches from his tanks, and could not charge his flyers, so swarmy lived as he had his tyrant guard and the malanthrope protection. 6 Hive Guard did great. Double shot them every turn and took out a valkerie and vendetta during the game.

Flyrant did terrible. Double smited a Vendetta, swarmlord grabbed him and had him charge the vendetta with three wounds remaining, and the 4 Strength 6 MRC attacks are just underwhelming versus a Toughness 7 (even with rerolls), 3+ save chasse. Hit 3 times, wounded twice, he made one 6+ save, rolled one wound, picked up the reroll and rolled two wounds. The valkerie then flew away like 36 inches. Very underwhelming and considering either dropping him from the list, or making him a shooting platform with a Miasma cannon and Devourers (and smite) he would be a better damage dealing platform. What do you think?

Enemy list was 4 tanks, Vendetta, Valkerie, Forgeworld Avenger Strike fighter. Bull Ogryns with psychic buffs and a special character coming in from the sides along with the outflanking horsemen. Taurox and a hellhound. Brutal ranged list with lots of mobility.

I have found genestealers to be very underwhelming versus a toughness 8 chassis (especially one that has 2 heavy flamers). What have you all been doing regarding antitank in this addition?

A flyrant should average about 3 damage from smite+scream, ~1 damage from shooting (With 2 devourers), and ~4 damage from melee (with MRC). So, 8 damage in one turn against a T7 flier. That's not optimal, but, it's pretty good all things considered.

I've found my flyrants work best in pairs, as two generally do enough damage to cripple or kill most things, but one typically doesn't do enough to take a big target out of the fight. They're amazing at bullying backfields, though. If you're lucky with 4++, they're surprisingly durable too.

Vs T8, 3+ our best damage dealers are;
#1 Trygon - 32 points per damage
#2 Shock Guard - 35 points per damage
#3 A3 Genestealers - 36 points per damage
#4 Double tap Rupture fex - 42 points per damage
#5 BS3 HVC/2 DS fex - 45 points per damage
#6 Double tap exo - 52 points per damage
#7 Impaler Guard - 54 points per damage

Problem with Genestealers is variance is not kind when fishing for 6s, though it is offset by typically large numbers of dice.

Masutaman wrote:
So I played the Swarmlord Kraken/Kronos list last night against a tough IG list with the terrible long deployment (Hammer and Anvil). Given that I did not have a Trygon to deep strike near his zone with stealers, and my antitank was underwhelming, it was a tough game and a slight loss.

I was conservative with the swarmlord because I was like 35-40 inches from his tanks, and could not charge his flyers, so swarmy lived as he had his tyrant guard and the malanthrope protection. 6 Hive Guard did great. Double shot them every turn and took out a valkerie and vendetta during the game.

Flyrant did terrible. Double smited a Vendetta, swarmlord grabbed him and had him charge the vendetta with three wounds remaining, and the 4 Strength 6 MRC attacks are just underwhelming versus a Toughness 7 (even with rerolls), 3+ save chasse. Hit 3 times, wounded twice, he made one 6+ save, rolled one wound, picked up the reroll and rolled two wounds. The valkerie then flew away like 36 inches. Very underwhelming and considering either dropping him from the list, or making him a shooting platform with a Miasma cannon and Devourers (and smite) he would be a better damage dealing platform. What do you think?

Enemy list was 4 tanks, Vendetta, Valkerie, Forgeworld Avenger Strike fighter. Bull Ogryns with psychic buffs and a special character coming in from the sides along with the outflanking horsemen. Taurox and a hellhound. Brutal ranged list with lots of mobility.

I have found genestealers to be very underwhelming versus a toughness 8 chassis (especially one that has 2 heavy flamers). What have you all been doing regarding antitank in this addition?

Flyers, ogrins, outflank and hellhound.
Finally one astra militarum player that understood how to make a list that doesn't only go pew pew but also tries to have a say against assault armies.

TraceofToxin - That is some great information. Thanks!

Are the beta rules in effect at tournaments etc regarding +1 for each additional Smite? Using the Scream to get around this is golden. Thanks for reminding me of that.

Double tapping using stategems on the Hive Guard looks like the cheapest option. Trygons are awesome, but they kill something then immediately die. The Hive guard typically kill all game.

Maybe I can try again with the flyrant. I like flinging him around with the swarm lord as his range is massive.

Masutaman wrote:
Hello fellow Nid players,

I am jumping back into the game and was wonder which of the following lists that you would bring and if any tweaks are necessary?

List #1 (Has 9 CP)

Kraken
Swarmlord
Flyrant with Devourer, MRC, -1 to shoot Relic
3 Tyrant Guard with RC
3 x 16 Genestealers with RC

Kronos
Malanthrope
Neurothrope
2 x 3 Rippers
30 Gaunts with 20 Devourers
2 x 1 Biovores
6 Hive Guard

List #2 (12 CP)

Kraken
Swarmlord
Neurothrope
Malanthrope
3 Tyrant Guard with RC
6 Hive Guard
Lictor
3 x 1 Mucliod Spore
3 x1 Biovore
2 x 3 Rippers
30 Gaunts with 20 Devourers
3 x 17 Genestealers with RC

So in effect, the difference in the lists is the hitting power of the Tyrant and Psychic defense, versus 3 more CP with the other list.

Thanks for any feed back!

List 2

 jifel wrote:
To be honest, I think I've gotten into close combat turn 1 in every single game that I have deployed my Genestealers instead of reserving them, purely on the merits of being Kraken and using the advance twice Strat. I just feel like that for $228 and a cp is much better than investing in Swarmy.

The strat prevents you form charging though, does it not? Or are they charging your genstealers? There is something here that eludes me.

 Niiai wrote:

 jifel wrote:
To be honest, I think I've gotten into close combat turn 1 in every single game that I have deployed my Genestealers instead of reserving them, purely on the merits of being Kraken and using the advance twice Strat. I just feel like that for $228 and a cp is much better than investing in Swarmy.

The strat prevents you form charging though, does it not? Or are they charging your genstealers? There is something here that eludes me.

The MOVE twice strat stops charging, the double advance strat does not.

does anyone think a genestealer heavy list works well in an ETC style format? something like:

Kraken battalion

Broodlord
Neuro
Mally

20 stealers
20 stealers
20 stealers
20 stealers
20 stealers
15stealers

Kronos spearhead

Neuro

Ripper
Ripper

Bio
Bio
Bio

So this the purest form - I should clarify that this is ETC event, so tabling you opponent gives you a perfect score. The list that won the last event had 37 reapers and 30 swooping hawks..

Second list:

Kraken battalion:

Brood
Mally
Neuro

18 stealers
18 stealers
18 stealers
18 stealers
20 horm

Kronos spearhead

Neuro

Ripper

Bio
Bio
Bio

GSC supreme command

Magus
Magus
Primus

14 stealers

As I mentioned earlier, I've been toying with list ideas like that since the codex dropped. Honestly, I think it might work, but I'm not so sure as to invest in another 50+ stealers. The most models I've lost in a single turn of 8th edition 40k is ~60, usually mostly horms, but sometimes with 10-20 stealers as well. I wonder if going ~60 kraken stealers, and ~40 jorm extended carapace stealers would work? Do double battalion?

Something like

Kraken
Broodlord
Neurothrope

3x19 Genestealers

Jorm
2x Neurothrope

2x19 Genestealers w/ extended carapace
29 devourer gants

3x Raveners

Comes in just shy of 1900. Could touch things up to do a neurothrope+ripper kronos patrol or something like that.

I'm going to play test it a bit see what results I get. if I drop the cult I can get the following:

Kraken battalion:

Brood
Mally
Neuro

18 stealers
18 stealers
18 stealers
18 stealers
15 stealers

Kronos spearhead

Neuro

19 horm

6 hive guard

Bio
Bio
Bio

can't duplicate detachment in ETC style unfortunately.. id love to though

I like the 6 hive guard, too. Let us know how it works, I'm very interested.

Those many, many stealer lists are all gross and i like it. Too bad I've only got 60.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Best I've got with all my stealers (and Hormagaunts for that matter). The Flyrant feels a bit out of place but I'm hoping with smart positioning and probably using metabolic overdrive on the malanthrope I can get him -2 to hit for a turn and get some mileage out of him with every thing else that's bearing down quickly. Is the broodlord worth it with *only* 60 stealers? Am I burning my CP too quickly? First turn would likely see 2 CP burn for Stealers and Devilgants to enter tunnel, 2 CP for double shooting either Hives or Devilgants, 1 for Metabolic overdrive, and 1 for double advance, leaving me 3.

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [57 PL, 892pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Kraken

+ Troops +

Genestealers [16 PL, 240pts]: 5x Acid Maw
. 20x Genestealer: 20x Rending Claws

Genestealers [16 PL, 228pts]: 4x Acid Maw
. 19x Genestealer: 19x Rending Claws

Hormagaunts [9 PL, 145pts]: 29x Hormagaunt

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 189pts]: Adrenal Glands, Chameleonic Mutation, Monstrous Rending Claws, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings

Malanthropes [5 PL, 90pts]: Malanthrope

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [60 PL, 1057pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Jormungandr

+ Troops +

Genestealers [16 PL, 228pts]: 4x Acid Maw
. 19x Genestealer: 19x Rending Claws

Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm

Termagants [9 PL, 232pts]
. 29x Termagant (Devourer): 29x Devourer

+ Fast Attack +

Raveners [8 PL, 92pts]
. Ravener: 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: 2x Scything Talons

+ HQ +

Broodlord [8 PL, 162pts]: Monstrous Rending Claws

Neurothrope [4 PL, 70pts]

+ Elites +

Hive Guard [13 PL, 240pts]
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon

++ Total: [117 PL, 1949pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Those many, many stealer lists are all gross and i like it. Too bad I've only got 60.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Best I've got with all my stealers (and Hormagaunts for that matter). The Flyrant feels a bit out of place but I'm hoping with smart positioning and probably using metabolic overdrive on the malanthrope I can get him -2 to hit for a turn and get some mileage out of him with every thing else that's bearing down quickly. Is the broodlord worth it with *only* 60 stealers? Am I burning my CP too quickly? First turn would likely see 2 CP burn for Stealers and Devilgants to enter tunnel, 2 CP for double shooting either Hives or Devilgants, 1 for Metabolic overdrive, and 1 for double advance, leaving me 3.

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [57 PL, 892pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Kraken

+ Troops +

Genestealers [16 PL, 240pts]: 5x Acid Maw
. 20x Genestealer: 20x Rending Claws

Genestealers [16 PL, 228pts]: 4x Acid Maw
. 19x Genestealer: 19x Rending Claws

Hormagaunts [9 PL, 145pts]: 29x Hormagaunt

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 189pts]: Adrenal Glands, Chameleonic Mutation, Monstrous Rending Claws, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings

Malanthropes [5 PL, 90pts]: Malanthrope

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [60 PL, 1057pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Jormungandr

+ Troops +

Genestealers [16 PL, 228pts]: 4x Acid Maw
. 19x Genestealer: 19x Rending Claws

Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm

Termagants [9 PL, 232pts]
. 29x Termagant (Devourer): 29x Devourer

+ Fast Attack +

Raveners [8 PL, 92pts]
. Ravener: 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: 2x Scything Talons
. Ravener: 2x Scything Talons

+ HQ +

Broodlord [8 PL, 162pts]: Monstrous Rending Claws

Neurothrope [4 PL, 70pts]

+ Elites +

Hive Guard [13 PL, 240pts]
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon

++ Total: [117 PL, 1949pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

re the broodlord worth it question: Its a fine balance isn't it, prob the better question is can you get anything better for the points? has not far off a hive tyrants costs and there's always more stealers to be had but you don't have anymore so its moot. you could have more board control with like an extra 30 horms I guess?

If you play ITC missions shouldn't the 20 stealer squad be 19 so you deny secondary's? I don't play ITC but I see that a lot.

Also, you should remember to go character hunting with one squad of genestealers a turn for your D3 command points back.. you could prob spread out the killing to make sure you got the chance of getting D3 a turn..

Broodlord is only worth the points if:

a: your stealers hang around long enough for his buff to be worth it.
b. He survives long enough to kill back his points or buff the stealers to do the same.


I find he is not worth it if you only take one unit of stealers. If your bringing 2 units of 19 or 3 units of 16 he has a good chance of buffing the damage enough for him to be worth.


I want to like him, but the 4+/5++ on T5 with 6 wounds means he really doesnt live long enough once he actually gets to the fighting.

He is strong in melee againgst most characters (and can regain command points againgst them) but its not always easy to get him there.

I'd almost always rather have another FHT over him, or even a nuerothrope and more troops.

I just go 6 carnifex ordered online - finally came into stock.

Dakka fex just seems the best - but I am tempted by the HVC 2x DS . Cost a bit more but start doing damage turn 1. Anyone have any experience with that build?

Broodlords are just too expensive, sadly.

I think they would be a strong choice ~140 pts, and definitely competitive at 130 or less.

You give up so much in utility and CC durability to take one over a flyrant, and all you get in return is a miniscule cost savings (16 pts), little more melee damage output and durability vs shooting. Just not cheap enough to justify it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I just go 6 carnifex ordered online - finally came into stock.

Dakka fex just seems the best - but I am tempted by the HVC 2x DS . Cost a bit more but start doing damage turn 1. Anyone have any experience with that build?

If I was going to use shooty fex, I'd probably do 4 HVC/DS and 2 dakkafex. We have so many tools for removing infantry at short range, the HVC lets us reach out and touch stuff like reapers, and put damage on vehicles.

Spamming dakafex isn't a good idea. The range is too short on them and no AP means your only good at taking down infantry.

I'd rather devourer gaunts for the same points most of the time.

HVC+devourers is pretty solid though.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Spamming dakafex isn't a good idea. The range is too short on them and no AP means your only good at taking down infantry.

I'd rather devourer gaunts for the same points most of the time.

HVC+devourers is pretty solid though.

Agreed.

HVC+Deathspitters tho, worse vs all targets except tanks equivs, but the extra range is a big deal for shooting past screens and stuff.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Spamming dakafex isn't a good idea. The range is too short on them and no AP means your only good at taking down infantry.

I'd rather devourer gaunts for the same points most of the time.

HVC+devourers is pretty solid though.

I was big on dakka gants until I got hive guard. Plus rolling 180 dice wasn't very fun. Another big issue with dakka gants I've found is armies ability to intercept - ESP eldar.

IDK, my 3 Dakaafex's are great and been doing great. I've only used them in 3 games so far, so will come back after a few more.

If Tyrannocytes were allowed to carry a Character, how would that affect your valuing of HQ choices?

 lindsay40k wrote:
If Tyrannocytes were allowed to carry a Character, how would that affect your valuing of HQ choices?

It would make the broodlord and the prime a lot more valuable.