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 Xenomancers wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
If Tyrannocytes were allowed to carry a Character, how would that affect your valuing of HQ choices?

It would make the broodlord and the prime a lot more valuable.

Yup. 2 9 man warrior units and a prime in a drop pod would be a major component of a lot of lists. Adrenal Glands and Bone swords all over the place.

Im not sure exactly why they felt the need to not allow us to put our smaller characters in a pod when we could just use jorm CP to get them there anyway, but it is an annoyance.

9 warriors in a pod with a prime would make primes actually viable for use at a tournament.

Not horribly miffed that broodlords cant though, as they are relatively easy to get up the field. They just tend to die as soon as they finish their first round of combat/buffs.

What's everyone core "tactics" or "units" for gunlines that have a pretty efficient wrap and infiltrate unit like sentinels?

For gunlines you only have 2 options.

You either charge them with a lot of models really fast and tie them up, or you outshoot them.

Tyranids normally couldn't outshoot a guard list, but if you have -1 to hit auras and some kronos Hive guard you can really hurt their big guns fast.

6 hive guard will degrade 2 russ's per turn with the double shoot strat from out of LOS. Then they hit you on 6's and can be mostly ignored.

Kraken genestealers + devilbomb will eradicate the guards screens and get into their tanks preventing them from shooting. Since guard don't have flying tanks, just tagging them with horms or genestealers is quite effective at shutting down their firepower.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
For gunlines you only have 2 options.

You either charge them with a lot of models really fast and tie them up, or you outshoot them.

Tyranids normally couldn't outshoot a guard list, but if you have -1 to hit auras and some kronos Hive guard you can really hurt their big guns fast.

6 hive guard will degrade 2 russ's per turn with the double shoot strat from out of LOS. Then they hit you on 6's and can be mostly ignored.

Kraken genestealers + devilbomb will eradicate the guards screens and get into their tanks preventing them from shooting. Since guard don't have flying tanks, just tagging them with horms or genestealers is quite effective at shutting down their firepower.

Occasionally you can use to the devilbomb to tag the tanks as well. Normally doesn't happen unless Swarmy is still alive to give them extra movement, but if so, you can try to get most of the gunline with the 'gaunts and use 'horms/'stealers to hit something you want dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
I agree with you. I think Tyranids biggest strength is board control. If the smite nerf hadn't come through, I may have gone to a 4-5 neurothrope army with nothing but infantry models.

As it is, we have no HQ that provides all of the things a flyrant does, for anywhere near the cost. Broodlord hits a little harder in combat, but only gets 1 cast, no shooting and no fly. While still costing almost as much. Primes are just sad. They're nowhere near as hard hitting as flyrants or broodlords, have no casts, and are slower.

So, I feel stuck using flyrants, as they're the only HQ that fills the roles I need it to, now that casting smite 4+ times is going to start getting pretty rough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
I mean, I don't think he's an auto-take, nor do I think he fits into my style of play. My point is, there are good players who think he IS an auto-take. If you're of the opinion that he's not worth taking at all, then I think you should be re-evaluating your opinion. He enables a very specific playstyle in a way that nothing else does. If you can't see the value in swarmlord, then you should try playing him.

I see the value and why/how to play him, i still dont like him nor play with him. My lists dont need him or want him, sure turn one charges are good, but we can do that without a 300pt model. Just b.c one high score nid player likes him doesnt mean he is an auto take.

If you think all he does is enable turn 1 charges, you don't understand how he works.

I would love to have you elaborate on this a bit more. I find that unless I go 100% (2-3 Tyrant Guard + Venom/Malenthropes) the Swarmlord lasts exactly as long as it takes for my opponents to decide they want him dead. With the way cover and line of sight works, I find it almost impossible to get him into a position were he is both useful and out of line of sight vs heavy guns. The only times I have got him into CC is when my opponent prioritizes Hive Guard/Exocrines/Tyranofexes over Swarmy. When I drop pod him, I find I get utility out of his casting, the locked in 'stealer charge, and a huge fire magnet that keeps my gunline unmolested for a turn. Is that worth the 423 points for him and the pod? Depends on if the 'stealers are able to do enough damage to important enough targets.

babelfish wrote:
I would love to have you elaborate on this a bit more. I find that unless I go 100% (2-3 Tyrant Guard + Venom/Malenthropes) the Swarmlord lasts exactly as long as it takes for my opponents to decide they want him dead. With the way cover and line of sight works, I find it almost impossible to get him into a position were he is both useful and out of line of sight vs heavy guns. The only times I have got him into CC is when my opponent prioritizes Hive Guard/Exocrines/Tyranofexes over Swarmy. When I drop pod him, I find I get utility out of his casting, the locked in 'stealer charge, and a huge fire magnet that keeps my gunline unmolested for a turn. Is that worth the 423 points for him and the pod? Depends on if the 'stealers are able to do enough damage to important enough targets.

Elaborate on what? I don't use him, I've said I don't use him. I'm just pointing out, people that are playing at the highest levels ARE using him, and are doing well with him. THOSE people do not use pods or guard. I've also pointed out that there are those of us also doing well against good opponents with good lists who do not use him. I'm saying he is absolutely viable, while not being an auto-take, and does not necessarily require a pod/guard, which seems to be the automatic thing to tell players.

From what I understand, they use LOS to protect him. Other than that, you'd have to ask them.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

babelfish wrote:
I would love to have you elaborate on this a bit more. I find that unless I go 100% (2-3 Tyrant Guard + Venom/Malenthropes) the Swarmlord lasts exactly as long as it takes for my opponents to decide they want him dead. With the way cover and line of sight works, I find it almost impossible to get him into a position were he is both useful and out of line of sight vs heavy guns. The only times I have got him into CC is when my opponent prioritizes Hive Guard/Exocrines/Tyranofexes over Swarmy. When I drop pod him, I find I get utility out of his casting, the locked in 'stealer charge, and a huge fire magnet that keeps my gunline unmolested for a turn. Is that worth the 423 points for him and the pod? Depends on if the 'stealers are able to do enough damage to important enough targets.

Elaborate on what? I don't use him, I've said I don't use him. I'm just pointing out, people that are playing at the highest levels ARE using him, and are doing well with him. THOSE people do not use pods or guard. I've also pointed out that there are those of us also doing well against good opponents with good lists who do not use him. I'm saying he is absolutely viable, while not being an auto-take, and does not necessarily require a pod/guard, which seems to be the automatic thing to tell players.

From what I understand, they use LOS to protect him. Other than that, you'd have to ask them.

"If you think all he does is enable turn 1 charges, you don't understand how he works"

Using LoS to move units multi times isn't what he asked.

Please explain that he isn't only good for Dbl movements and there is something else that makes him better.

Also, you don't need LoS or Dbl movements when you can still charge turn 1 other ways, or DS for protection, or have -2 to hit instead of -1. Also show me these players other than the 1, show me the tournament results with the codex. B.c the lists i've seen (for smaller tournaments nothing to large another reason why i ask b.c i havent seent hem in a large tournaent win) dont have SL.


The bests going lists i've seen are Kraken Genestealers with Flyrant -1 to hit, and a 2nd detachment of Hiveguard/Neurothropes and Exocrines.

Edit: Spelling

You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.

Thats still dbl movement...........

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.

Thats still dbl movement...........

That can take place after we've skewered the outer layers with Devourers etc revealing the juicy center of thier formations...

We've discussed it a bunch. He doesn't get it. It's whatever, moving on.

Statistically fex are pretty comparable to most IG vehicles, and gants are amazing screens. Is there a discernable reaspn why we aren't seeing nid hordes with fex gun platforms?

My hunch is that stealers are just too good to pass up, and so strong in the meta.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.

Thats still dbl movement...........

That can take place after we've skewered the outer layers with Devourers etc revealing the juicy center of thier formations...

Yes i understand, but he kept saying that Dbl movement isnt the key to it, but it is... his entire strategy (the Swarmlord) is to dbl move key units at key times. And i;m saying he isnt a must take at all when we have many ways to get where we want when we want for cheaper.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.

Thats still dbl movement...........

That can take place after we've skewered the outer layers with Devourers etc revealing the juicy center of thier formations...

Yes i understand, but he kept saying that Dbl movement isnt the key to it, but it is... his entire strategy (the Swarmlord) is to dbl move key units at key times. And i;m saying he isnt a must take at all when we have many ways to get where we want when we want for cheaper.

The point is it isn't JUST double move in the movement. It's move, shooting phase, move. The power house effect is you can gun down screens before moving past their previous locations. Other armys have ways to move twice. None of them get their second move in the shooting phase.

Calling it double move doesn't do it justice.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We've discussed it a bunch. He doesn't get it. It's whatever, moving on.

Statistically fex are pretty comparable to most IG vehicles, and gants are amazing screens. Is there a discernable reaspn why we aren't seeing nid hordes with fex gun platforms?

My hunch is that stealers are just too good to pass up, and so strong in the meta.

Fexes are not comparable to most IG vehicle. Catachan manticore, basilisk and leman russ tanks takes down fexes easily. Board control is great but in the end stuff still got to die so a bunch of gaunts with fexes won't do it. Gaunts are only good for anti infantry devourer shooting or a few hormagaunts to tie up units following by genestealers.

Against T7, 3+

Catachan battle cannon firing twice averages 4.44 damage. A lascannon adds .97 damage. So, 5.41 damage for 164 points. About 30.31 points per damage

HVC+2DS averages 2.78 at 116, for 41.73 points per damage, or 126 (Sport cysts) for 45.32 points per damage.

Firing at eachother, Catachan vs Jormungandr

The Catachan averages 2.71 damage (60.51ppd) vs spore cysts, and 4.11 (39.90ppd) vs normal.

The fex does 2.44. (51.64ppd) in return.


Yes, the catachan LRBT is better, but it comparable. It is not a complete blow out. The fex is only marginally useless in CC, can move further and shoot at full, has lower range, etc.

Compared to Taurox Prime, carnifex are actually better in some metrics, particularly after the nerf.

Comparing anything to AM manticores/basilisks is an exercise in futility because they're severely undercosted, even with the small points nerf they got in CA.

The point remains, that Tyranids have a shooting platform whose durability and damage output is comparable to Taurox/Leman Russ. We also can field much stronger offensive assault capabilities, and have true fearless hordes.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Is there a discernable reaspn why we aren't seeing nid hordes with fex gun platforms?

Part of it might be model availability. For as long as I can remember large units of Gaunts have not been especially popular as troops competitively.

- In 4th edition they were too expensive and took points/threat saturation away from monsters. (Didn't play this edition, started in 5th. Hence short summery. )
- In 5th edition the fearless mechanics were dreadful for large units with automatic casualties being suffered based on how badly you lost in assault in exchange for not running away and the edition itself more or less required armor crackers in every slot to deal with vehicle spam, favoring Tervigons and Genestealers as Troops with only a token Termagant presence to unlock the Tervigons and for spawning.
- In early 6th Tervigon/Termagant lists were admittedly fairly popular due to the improved fearless and new biomancy powers but when the codex nerfed the Tervigon they and their offspring ended up getting replaced with aggressive flying lists to deal with the growing psychic-fueled "deathstar" problems, with Ripper bases as token objective scorers.
- Lastly, 7th edition had such extreme rate of fire firepower available that the best countermeasure was to take the minimum bodycount per unit as possible to cause wasteful overkill, leading to the MSU Mucolid/Lictor/Tyrant builds.

Also in regards to the math you did in the last post, did you include the bonus from Enhanced Senses? I know one of the biggest gripes over in the Guard tactic thread when skimming for GSC intel tactics is that the bulk of their anti-tank shooting needs a 4+ or worse to hit on, while it currently is very much possible to make a Tyranid list where all of the heavy guns hit on a 3+ using ES 'fexes, Exocrines, and Hive Guard.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Against T7, 3+

Catachan battle cannon firing twice averages 4.44 damage. A lascannon adds .97 damage. So, 5.41 damage for 164 points. About 30.31 points per damage

HVC+2DS averages 2.78 at 116, for 41.73 points per damage, or 126 (Sport cysts) for 45.32 points per damage.

Firing at eachother, Catachan vs Jormungandr

The Catachan averages 2.71 damage (60.51ppd) vs spore cysts, and 4.11 (39.90ppd) vs normal.

The fex does 2.44. (51.64ppd) in return.


Yes, the catachan LRBT is better, but it comparable. It is not a complete blow out. The fex is only marginally useless in CC, can move further and shoot at full, has lower range, etc.

Compared to Taurox Prime, carnifex are actually better in some metrics, particularly after the nerf.

Comparing anything to AM manticores/basilisks is an exercise in futility because they're severely undercosted, even with the small points nerf they got in CA.

The point remains, that Tyranids have a shooting platform whose durability and damage output is comparable to Taurox/Leman Russ. We also can field much stronger offensive assault capabilities, and have true fearless hordes.

Lot of cherry picking here. First you make a general conclusion that AM vehicles are comparable to fexes in general and then simply seclude the manticore and basilisk because they're to good for their points. You do think the Leman russ battle tank is better but because the fex can be fast and does a little more damage in close combat their in some way comparable.

Just say the carnifex is comparable with the taurox prime. Doesn't help when that carnifex get's storm eagle missles in the face, though.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Against T7, 3+

Catachan battle cannon firing twice averages 4.44 damage. A lascannon adds .97 damage. So, 5.41 damage for 164 points. About 30.31 points per damage

HVC+2DS averages 2.78 at 116, for 41.73 points per damage, or 126 (Sport cysts) for 45.32 points per damage.

Firing at eachother, Catachan vs Jormungandr

The Catachan averages 2.71 damage (60.51ppd) vs spore cysts, and 4.11 (39.90ppd) vs normal.

The fex does 2.44. (51.64ppd) in return.


Yes, the catachan LRBT is better, but it comparable. It is not a complete blow out. The fex is only marginally useless in CC, can move further and shoot at full, has lower range, etc.

Compared to Taurox Prime, carnifex are actually better in some metrics, particularly after the nerf.

Comparing anything to AM manticores/basilisks is an exercise in futility because they're severely undercosted, even with the small points nerf they got in CA.

The point remains, that Tyranids have a shooting platform whose durability and damage output is comparable to Taurox/Leman Russ. We also can field much stronger offensive assault capabilities, and have true fearless hordes.

My math says that a HVC DS fex scores at 34 points per damage on a T7 3+.


1,72 from HVC and 1,98 from DS at 126 points.
The russ instead nets 35,48 points per damage.
Dakkafex is actually better (but much shorter range).

By the way, both the russ and the dakkafex are more efficent point wise than manticores (42).

Merry Xenos Mas to the group.

What are people Hoping big red will bring?

Also, I don't see much mention of harpies or hive crones. Are people having any luck with them.

I was thinking of looking into starting my SW army again. How does wulfen compare to genestealers?

30 genestealers are 360 points. 10 wulfen with 2 stormshields and 2 hammers are 360 ish points. How does that compare?

Stealers are s4 rending. Wulfen are s5.

Wulfen are 4+ 5++ 2 wounds each. Stealers are 5++ 5+++ with catalyst.

Are wulfen viable?

I know this is the tyranid thread, but people who play genestealers are better at evaluating them. The wulfen also re-roll charges. They are a bit like behemoth in that way. My one consern is less attacks. 30 stealers are more impressive then 10 wulfen, no?

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, both the russ and the dakkafex are more efficent point wise than manticores (42).

That's why I don't care much about the bland math comparisons. Doesn't tell you anything about tactics, how to use units and the synergy within an army.

I always fire first with my manticore because I can always use the Catachan reroll for one dice and the regular reroll stratagem for the other one if needed. Its save to assume that that will really bump up the amount of shots. Every catachan force got harker so those 1 to hit get a reroll.

I played with a manticore + 3x basilisks. Shall we put these in the backfield and deploy 4 shooty carnifexes in front of them and see what happens? Do this with all deployment setup's and let both armies get first turn a few times and think how the 'math' will turn out.

Spoletta wrote:

My math says that a HVC DS fex scores at 34 points per damage on a T7 3+.


1,72 from HVC and 1,98 from DS at 126 points.
The russ instead nets 35,48 points per damage.
Dakkafex is actually better (but much shorter range).

By the way, both the russ and the dakkafex are more efficent point wise than manticores (42).

Are you doing 12 shots for the deathspitters? Because with 6 shots they should be averaging 1 damage. 6 shots, 4 hit, 2 wound, 1 unsaved.

Twin devourers are 24 shots, 16 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.777 damage for 11 pts less than the HVC+2DS setup, making it 64.97 damage/wound.

For Catachan manticores I get 9 shots (2d6 rerolling lowest), 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, 2 unsaved, 4 damage. So 36.25 damage/wound

shogun wrote:

Lot of cherry picking here. First you make a general conclusion that AM vehicles are comparable to fexes in general and then simply seclude the manticore and basilisk because they're to good for their points. You do think the Leman russ battle tank is better but because the fex can be fast and does a little more damage in close combat their in some way comparable.

Just say the carnifex is comparable with the taurox prime. Doesn't help when that carnifex get's storm eagle missles in the face, though.

I mean, it's not really cherry picking. We can do the math (like we just did, showing carnifex are close), but like you said, it doesn't take into account the range and ignores LOS of the manticore and basilisks. They're different weapon platforms with different jobs. They're also criminally undercosted considering they can do that much damage anywhere on the board without LOS, comparing to them is like trying to compare to malefic lords before CA, or dark reapers, it's simply doesn't make sense to try to compare a fairly priced unit vs something that is clearly overpowered.

They are comparable, in damage, and durability. The math supports it. What small advantages some of the vehicles have in some ways, the carnifex has other advantages in others.

But if you don't like doing the math, you should go out there and show us what works best. Write up some battle reports, we'd love to glean insights. The math is all we have to determine what units are likely to perform how, even if you are just eyeballing it, you're going off of some level of mental math.

40k is about combining tactics and math, you will not win against good players using only one of the two.

Your "cherry picking" of a scenario is as clearly trolling as almost everything else you post. And ironically, with jorm and the -1 to hit, I think the HVC/DS carnifex will actually end up winning in a vacuum. Two unsaved wounds from HVC will degrade any of the arty pieces to hitting on 5s (6s with the spore cysts). Your catachan manticore averages 2 damage, and the catachan basilisks 1.5 each. If they all fire first, they aren't even very likely to kill a single fex. Meanwhile, just the HVC should average 1.77 damage each, so four should knock a vehicle down to hitting on 5s. Next round one of the AM vehicles is doing half as much damage, a carnifex dies, and one is probably at about half. Carnifex should be firing with all their guns, enough to knock another vehicle down to half, or wipe one out. Either way, the remaining will probably kill a second fex. Third round the two remaining fex are inside the AM deployment zone, should be able to knock another vehicle down to half with all of their guns. At this point, if the nid player has knocked 3 vehicles down to half (Including manticore), the AM player should be doing just shy of 4 damage every shooting phase, while the nid player should have 2 fex left doing just shy of 3 damage each. The AM player hasn't been able to move any of his forces, while the Carnifex are wholly within their deployment zone. Variance GREATLY favors the fex in the math, with them hitting on 3s and the AM all hitting on 5s.

But hey, you didn't bother doing the math and just thought you could throw out a seemingly impossible situation, and you proved my point. If you're not going to actually add anything meaningful to the thread, I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to tear down what other people post without providing any meaningful reasoning.

Dakkafex are outclassed in their best role (anti horde) by Genestealers in both range and efficiency.

I would never leave home without Swarmy.

 luke1705 wrote:
Dakkafex are outclassed in their best role (anti horde) by Genestealers in both range and efficiency.

I would never leave home without Swarmy.

Genestealers outclass almost everything though, which is probably the most compelling reason to build armies around them. They're just fantastic with kraken.

 Jasper wrote:
Merry Xenos Mas to the group.

What are people Hoping big red will bring?

Also, I don't see much mention of harpies or hive crones. Are people having any luck with them.

I’ve just picked up twenty Squigs. They’re going to be Rippers, and Hormagaunt hips for Hive Fleet Gorgrim.

TBH Harpies and Crones seem okay, priced around the Heldrake point and share it’s utility as a first turn charger that prevents a gunner unit from shooting. With Swarmlord throwing some stealers or Hormagaunts in there, the overlap with CSM Tactica reaches to the use of Warptime as well. The main problem for them with me is the move from FA to Flyer, so they can’t help fill out a Brigade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As we compare gunner Carnifexes to battle tanks, let’s not overlook the non-degrading profile. Carnies might die faster, but taking seven wounds does not reduce their number of hits by 33%. Scant consolation when the lucky bolter hit finishes the job, of course

 Jasper wrote:
Merry Xenos Mas to the group.

What are people Hoping big red will bring?

Also, I don't see much mention of harpies or hive crones. Are people having any luck with them.

Merry whatever-the-feth-you-celebrate you guys!

I am considering very slowly reacquiring Necrons. How far that goes is entirely based on the codex, but right now I REALLY want to kit bash a Kutlakh the World Killer and Tolok the Blinded just for fun.

Sorry I've been gone, my computer died. I won't be able to fix it till after the holiday I reacon. About the Gunfexen (HVC+Twin Deathspitters) I think a Jormongondr, or Kronos list can use them quite well. I think I posted a Jormon Gunline list just before my machine gawd became heretical.

I also think that if you plan on delivering your Stealers via Tunnel Extented Carapaces just might be the way to go. Buy Krakon speed rushers need to charge off the advance.

pinecone77 wrote:
Sorry I've been gone, my computer died. I won't be able to fix it till after the holiday I reacon. About the Gunfexen (HVC+Twin Deathspitters) I think a Jormongondr, or Kronos list can use them quite well. I think I posted a Jormon Gunline list just before my machine gawd became heretical.

I also think that if you plan on delivering your Stealers via Tunnel Extented Carapaces just might be the way to go. Buy Krakon speed rushers need to charge off the advance.

Going from a 4+ to a 3+ is a really big difference. If you're getting to make that 3+ save, you're increasing your durability per point by a ton. Shorthand;

5++ means you need to take 30 wounds to lose 20
4+ means you need to take 40 wounds to lose 20
3+ means you need to take 60 wounds to lose 20

So, yeah, if you're doing jorm GS, it's probably worth it to go for the 4+.

Big problem is that asscans are -1, dark reapers are -2, heavy bolters are -1, and so on.

Biggest boon would probably be against AM, where punishers and mortars are ap 0, but they also have hell hounds, catachan battle cannons, etc. that will all throw a decent number of shots with an AP that really just makes it hard to justify taking both the 4+ and jorm.

I really want to try it, but at the same time, it feels like there is too much AP going around to justify both the cost, and the opportunity cost of charging after advancing (and even risking charging after DS!).

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

My math says that a HVC DS fex scores at 34 points per damage on a T7 3+.


1,72 from HVC and 1,98 from DS at 126 points.
The russ instead nets 35,48 points per damage.
Dakkafex is actually better (but much shorter range).

By the way, both the russ and the dakkafex are more efficent point wise than manticores (42).

Are you doing 12 shots for the deathspitters? Because with 6 shots they should be averaging 1 damage. 6 shots, 4 hit, 2 wound, 1 unsaved.

Twin devourers are 24 shots, 16 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.777 damage for 11 pts less than the HVC+2DS setup, making it 64.97 damage/wound.

For Catachan manticores I get 9 shots (2d6 rerolling lowest), 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, 2 unsaved, 4 damage. So 36.25 damage/wound

shogun wrote:

Lot of cherry picking here. First you make a general conclusion that AM vehicles are comparable to fexes in general and then simply seclude the manticore and basilisk because they're to good for their points. You do think the Leman russ battle tank is better but because the fex can be fast and does a little more damage in close combat their in some way comparable.

Just say the carnifex is comparable with the taurox prime. Doesn't help when that carnifex get's storm eagle missles in the face, though.

I mean, it's not really cherry picking. We can do the math (like we just did, showing carnifex are close), but like you said, it doesn't take into account the range and ignores LOS of the manticore and basilisks. They're different weapon platforms with different jobs. They're also criminally undercosted considering they can do that much damage anywhere on the board without LOS, comparing to them is like trying to compare to malefic lords before CA, or dark reapers, it's simply doesn't make sense to try to compare a fairly priced unit vs something that is clearly overpowered.

They are comparable, in damage, and durability. The math supports it. What small advantages some of the vehicles have in some ways, the carnifex has other advantages in others.

But if you don't like doing the math, you should go out there and show us what works best. Write up some battle reports, we'd love to glean insights. The math is all we have to determine what units are likely to perform how, even if you are just eyeballing it, you're going off of some level of mental math.

40k is about combining tactics and math, you will not win against good players using only one of the two.

Your "cherry picking" of a scenario is as clearly trolling as almost everything else you post. And ironically, with jorm and the -1 to hit, I think the HVC/DS carnifex will actually end up winning in a vacuum. Two unsaved wounds from HVC will degrade any of the arty pieces to hitting on 5s (6s with the spore cysts). Your catachan manticore averages 2 damage, and the catachan basilisks 1.5 each. If they all fire first, they aren't even very likely to kill a single fex. Meanwhile, just the HVC should average 1.77 damage each, so four should knock a vehicle down to hitting on 5s. Next round one of the AM vehicles is doing half as much damage, a carnifex dies, and one is probably at about half. Carnifex should be firing with all their guns, enough to knock another vehicle down to half, or wipe one out. Either way, the remaining will probably kill a second fex. Third round the two remaining fex are inside the AM deployment zone, should be able to knock another vehicle down to half with all of their guns. At this point, if the nid player has knocked 3 vehicles down to half (Including manticore), the AM player should be doing just shy of 4 damage every shooting phase, while the nid player should have 2 fex left doing just shy of 3 damage each. The AM player hasn't been able to move any of his forces, while the Carnifex are wholly within their deployment zone. Variance GREATLY favors the fex in the math, with them hitting on 3s and the AM all hitting on 5s.

But hey, you didn't bother doing the math and just thought you could throw out a seemingly impossible situation, and you proved my point. If you're not going to actually add anything meaningful to the thread, I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to tear down what other people post without providing any meaningful reasoning.

I checked my math again and again and again and i didn't catch that i was using 12 shots for DS?? That's why you don't do these things after a party... Indeed the total is 2,72.

For the manticore i think that you are overestimating the result of 2d6 reroll lowest. I considered it as 7,7 shots, but this is instead underestimated since it is a dice with a reroll (4,2) plus a not rerollable dice (3,5), which is lower than 2 dices with 1 reroll. The correct number of shots is 8,2. So 4,1 hits, 2,7 wounds, 1,78 unsaved, 3,57 damage. 40,03 point/damage.
Basilisks are also there: 2d6 take highest with reroll 4,95 shots 2,47 hits 1,63 wounds 1,36 unsaved 2,72 damage . 39,66 points/damage.

Manticores and basilisks get the lead on T8 targets.

That calculations though assume a fex without fleet adaptations against catachans. If the fex gets the Kronos bonus (which isn't always that easy with 24" range), he scores 3,17 damage, which is 39,70 points/damage, in line with AM gunlines. Just for the lolz, but if he also activates the pathogenic slime he sports a 25 points/damage.


For Kronos gunlines i had a wycked idea just yesterday.
I think that we have one of the best screening units in the game with spinefist termagants. They lack a 5+ sure, but they are actually a big menace in melee. You play 3 or 4 squads of 30, and interlace them so that to assault one you have to assault at least 3 units. Once in melee they are shooting with rerollin ones (they didn't move in the movement phase) and on the units that didn't suffer too many losses also with rerolling ones to wound. The good stuff here is that in the way pistols work, as long as one termagant is in melee range, all termagants can shoot in melee.
Obviously they are also immune to morale and likely at -1 to hit. Combine this with acid blood and that is a nasty screen, probably better than guards in some situations.

Spoletta wrote:
I checked my math again and again and again and i didn't catch that i was using 12 shots for DS?? That's why you don't do these things after a party... Indeed the total is 2,72.

For the manticore i think that you are overestimating the result of 2d6 reroll lowest. I considered it as 7,7 shots, but this is instead underestimated since it is a dice with a reroll (4,2) plus a not rerollable dice (3,5), which is lower than 2 dices with 1 reroll. The correct number of shots is 8,2. So 4,1 hits, 2,7 wounds, 1,78 unsaved, 3,57 damage. 40,03 point/damage.
Basilisks are also there: 2d6 take highest with reroll 4,95 shots 2,47 hits 1,63 wounds 1,36 unsaved 2,72 damage . 39,66 points/damage.

Manticores and basilisks get the lead on T8 targets.

That calculations though assume a fex without fleet adaptations against catachans. If the fex gets the Kronos bonus (which isn't always that easy with 24" range), he scores 3,17 damage, which is 39,70 points/damage, in line with AM gunlines. Just for the lolz, but if he also activates the pathogenic slime he sports a 25 points/damage.


For Kronos gunlines i had a wycked idea just yesterday.
I think that we have one of the best screening units in the game with spinefist termagants. They lack a 5+ sure, but they are actually a big menace in melee. You play 3 or 4 squads of 30, and interlace them so that to assault one you have to assault at least 3 units. Once in melee they are shooting with rerollin ones (they didn't move in the movement phase) and on the units that didn't suffer too many losses also with rerolling ones to wound. The good stuff here is that in the way pistols work, as long as one termagant is in melee range, all termagants can shoot in melee.
Obviously they are also immune to morale and likely at -1 to hit. Combine this with acid blood and that is a nasty screen, probably better than guards in some situations.

It happens to all of us, sometimes something just seems wrong.

Honestly I wasn't sure how to do probability for catachan mutli-dice. I figured that you would end up rolling a 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6, so 3.5+5.5 for 9. But, like you say, with a reroll it could be a 5 and a 2, so the 2 should *statistically* be 3.5. Which is about what I was using with 9. Either way, the numbers are fairly close, and I think both of our results tell the same story.

I did them without kronos because I figured most armies relying heavily on gunfex would be jorm. Exocrines and Tyrannofex put kronos to better use, as they're already going to be sitting still. Like I pointed out with the GS, after 4+, every time you improve your save by 1 increases your durability on the steep end of a curve. Going from 3+ to 2+ is a -really- big deal for durability.

I hadn't thought about spinefist gants for screens. That's an interesting thought, and something I'd like to look more at. You give up the fleshborers which will get you maybe a wound or two on overwatch for increasing the number of attacks per game round by 50% in melee (double in yours, same in opponents, 2+1). Things like this are why I love when people have constructive ideas, I never would have even thought to look at spinefist gants.