Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For T8 its the best. They tend to get focused because they are expensive and pretty easy to kill with las cannons. Mine always gets targeted first :(. Maybe if you take 3 of them - they could be one of our best units.

I"m currently working on my 3rd, I'll put some thoughts on it up after the New Year when I get some games in.

Has anyone had success running a horde Nid list in a competitive setting? I have no trouble staying under time as horde infantry guard, but every time I try running a gaunts/stealer heavy nid list, the games take forever and I would never get past turn two/three in a 2.5 hour round.

You can't really make the charge/fight phase go fast with needing to be really careful when making your charge moves and pile ins in order to legally tie up as many units as possible. Not to mention losing time to trying to line up stealers/hormies so they can actually fight in two ranks. God help you if the gargoyles need to get stuck in somewhere and you have to get those fiddly bastards into position.

So does anyone have any tricks for playing melee horde nids faster? I already have all my small bugs on a magna rack for easy deployment/packup and have pretty good dice management from playing Guard.

Masutaman wrote:
I have been doing the math and it appears that the Rupture Tyrannofex is better versus Toughness 8, 3+ chassis than the Exocrine. I am wondering why more people are not taking it?

It seems that the points per wound are the following:

Rupture Tyrannofex with Stinger Salvo

6 shots hitting on 4's = 3 hits, 2 wound. Times .833 get by the save times 3.5 (for d6 wounds) = 5.83 from the main gun
8 shots from Stinger salvo = 4 hit, 1.33 wound time .5 get by the save = .66 from the second gun

Total cost per wound is 40.82 if you only count the main gun or 36.67 if you count the second gun. That is some good bang for the points! Great range on the main gun too

Exocrine = 12 shots, 8 hit, 2.66 wound, 2.21 get by the save, causing 4.44 wounds. That is 48.65 points per wound.

Seems like taking one unit of 6 Hive guard (54 points per 1 point of damage), and double shooting with the stategem (27 points per wound), and the Rupturefex would be best ranged antitank options.

Wanted to know your thoughts?

Thanks!

Because it's ONLY better vs T8. T7 and below the Exocrine outshines the rupturfex point for point and most people don't field much or anything T8. How often do you see Landraiders instead of rhinos? The vast majority of vehicles are T6-7 and those are all the most point efficient options. Yes, the Tfex would be slightly better vs that One land raider. But If it's a choice between bringing something more efficient vs the one land raider or something more efficient against the 3 rhinos then which one is actually more efficient on the table in terms of practicality?

The Exocrine wins out every time.

Beyond that it's personal preference. My Exocrine Kit bash is my pride and joy. I have 2 of them and I try to use them whenever I get an excuse.

 Lance845 wrote:

Masutaman wrote:
I have been doing the math and it appears that the Rupture Tyrannofex is better versus Toughness 8, 3+ chassis than the Exocrine. I am wondering why more people are not taking it?

It seems that the points per wound are the following:

Rupture Tyrannofex with Stinger Salvo

6 shots hitting on 4's = 3 hits, 2 wound. Times .833 get by the save times 3.5 (for d6 wounds) = 5.83 from the main gun
8 shots from Stinger salvo = 4 hit, 1.33 wound time .5 get by the save = .66 from the second gun

Total cost per wound is 40.82 if you only count the main gun or 36.67 if you count the second gun. That is some good bang for the points! Great range on the main gun too

Exocrine = 12 shots, 8 hit, 2.66 wound, 2.21 get by the save, causing 4.44 wounds. That is 48.65 points per wound.

Seems like taking one unit of 6 Hive guard (54 points per 1 point of damage), and double shooting with the stategem (27 points per wound), and the Rupturefex would be best ranged antitank options.

Wanted to know your thoughts?

Thanks!

Because it's ONLY better vs T8. T7 and below the Exocrine outshines the rupturfex point for point and most people don't field much or anything T8. How often do you see Landraiders instead of rhinos? The vast majority of vehicles are T6-7 and those are all the most point efficient options. Yes, the Tfex would be slightly better vs that One land raider. But If it's a choice between bringing something more efficient vs the one land raider or something more efficient against the 3 rhinos then which one is actually more efficient on the table in terms of practicality?

The Exocrine wins out every time.

Beyond that it's personal preference. My Exocrine Kit bash is my pride and joy. I have 2 of them and I try to use them whenever I get an excuse.

Leman Russes, Knights, Baneblades, Mortarion, Land Raiders, Leviathan Dreadnoughts (Chaos AND Loyalist flavored), Necron Pylons... Having something to deal with Leman Russes alone should bring Tyrannofexes into consideration.

I didn't say it wasn't something to consider. But when people scream OP about Guard it hasn't been the Leman Russ, it's been infantry and Scions. Again, how many of these things do you generally see in your local meta on a day to day basis? How many MORE T6-7 vehicles do you see? The Exocrine isn't severely out performed by the Tfex and the moment something has 1 less toughness the exocrine is outperforming the Tfex.

If in your local meta every day you see land raider and Leman Russ spam then by all means. Take the Tfex. Clearly you could use it. But I think that local meta is a rarity.

NackaNid wrote:
What is your thoughts on the Toxicrene? I really like the re-roll to wound but is he a competitive option? Pretty cheap for under 160 pts.

I used him several times now.
Like some other stuff too, very situational.

I will compare him to the trygon, because of cost and combat abilities
He has got one more T than the Trygon for example, which does not help much against most things (S3-S5, S8+).
On paper he got same attacks and strength as trygon, but degrading with damage, which the trygon does not.
What helps him in cc is fighting almost first, the reroll to wound on everything and the possibility to shoot d6 times in addition. Acid blood and hypertoxic miasma (beeing based per model, not per unit!) is not that bad either, doing additional mortal wounds. This alone mostly makes for beeing attacked by less valueable units or with the biggest hammer the enemy got in his shelf.

What bothers me most with this model is the footprint on the table. You cant hide it ANYWHERE because of his big tentacles, and you cant position him well, because of the same reason. I magnetized mine, so i can remove the tentacles, but .. i had big discussions about it with some opponents, saying i cant remove them to place the model between ruins, because normaly it wouldnt fit between them and so would not be able to cross a line of buildings for example... stupid, but i can see their point.
I would not base a list on them, but for me they add nicely in most melee list. (not highly competitive).

 Xenomancers wrote:
[...] I've never used a Toxicrine. If you havn't used it yet - I think a malceptor I think would be more usable - it's actually our best psyker with that +1 to cast so can use him to cast catalyst which seems to be the hardest to get off - he also does d6 smite on a roll of a 10.

I have to disagree complimentary on the beeing our best psyker part. The neurothrope is our best psyker, not having the +1, but rerolling 1s on psychic tests, beeing a character and having 3++.

Used the maleceptor now four times now or so.
In cc he is not that great. His threat is minimum with his A3, S7, hitting on 4+. Having a 4++ helps, but decent melee units slaughter him fast, with T7 beeing the same issue like toxicrene. He can tie up some stuff with his W12, but he needs help there to get it killed. My opponents often ignored him completely, because... what could happen if he lives? Other stuff is more dangerous. Tie him up with crap unit, surround him, done...
His biggest plus is beeing able to cast smite and something else, OR doing his overload abilty, which is no psychic power and cant be denied!
But for 172 points i can closely get a winged hive tyrant for example, who lacks the overload, but can shoot and/or melee harder with great mobility.

Finally got my first game in with the new dex and it was thoroughly satisfying.

My list:

Kraken Brigade

Flyrant: Chameleonic, 2x Devs, MRC
Malanthrope

19x Stealers
19x Stealers
27x Hormagaunts

Jormungandr Brigade

Flyrant: 2x Devs, MRC
Neurothrope

19x Stealers
28x Devilgants
3x Rippers

5x Hive Guard

4x Raveners

His list:

4x Tau commander w/ 3x CIB, ATS
2x Tau commander w/ 4x fusion
Forgeworld commander w/ missile pod, networked marker light and ???
Cadre Fireblade
Coldstar Commander

Y'Vahra

2x 5 Firewarriors
1x 5 Pathfinder

2x 10 Gun Drones

We played ITC mission 6 and I stomped him pretty good. Further bat rep to come.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Finally got my first game in with the new dex and it was thoroughly satisfying.[...]

Gratulations to your win. With this matchup i would not have expected anything else, to be honest. For aggressive commander spam its a big mismatch, not beeing able to clean the hordic amount of genesteales etc. I am curious about the battle report., and thanks for it in advance.

The mission is basically 4 objectives, 1 in each table quarter. 1 per side is a primary objective worth 2 pts each turn to the others 1. He took reaper, old school, and big game hunter as secondaries. I took recon, death from 1000 cuts, and. . . Something.
He deployed drone blobs, Fireblade, Y'Vahra, FW commander, fire warriors, and pathfinders. I deployed Malanthrope, Neurothrope, Kraken stealers, Hormagaunts, and Hive Guard. I got first turn. He elected to use the pathfinders scout move to further push out my deepstrikers.

Tyranids turn 1:

His deployment effectively blocked me out from getting to his drones (60 shots per unit!) with my reserves so I elect to hold them back for a turn. Both stealer units move and advance toward the pathfinders. Double advance on one unit so they can easily engage a unit of Firewarriors as well. Malanthrope pops metabolic overdrive to keep pace with both stealer units and provide his aura for the retaliation. Hive Guard open up on the other unit of Firewarriors screening his drones, FW commander w/ drone controller, and Fireblade. They do 7 wounds but he passes 5 of those on 5+ to leave 3. I really want them gone so my Jormungandr reserves can come in next turn and do their thing so I pop double fire strat to finish them off. Catalyst from the Neuro fails on the double advancing unit of stealers. Both stealer units make their charges and kill the pathfinders and other Firewarriors.

Tau turn 1:

4 CIB commanders and their shield drones drop behind my lines to take out Hive Guard (1 survives his shooting phase). Cold Star commander takes off and lights up Hormagaunts. (4 survive by the end of the turn) Drones move forward to address stealers. Y'Vahra hops into reserves to await tyrants. The drones unload and delete all but 1 stealer from one unit and the other unit is left with 8 (bless you Malanthrope).

Tyranids turn 2:

I drop the Devilgants, stealers, and Raveners on one flank of his drones and support. Kraken Flyrant drops near Malanthrope for -2 to hit, and Jorm Flyrant drops on opposite side of his drones. Flyrants and double shooting gants take out all but 1 drone. Jorm Flyrant smites FW commander for 2 wounds. Kraken Flyrant casts catalyst on himself and casts horror on coldstar commander. Surviving hormas and hive guard each claim an objective on my back lines. Reinforcements claim the other two. Surviving 8 stealers assault Fireblade and FW Commander. They kill the commander and remain locked in combat with Fireblade.

Tau turn 2:

Both Fusion Commanders arrive and summarily nuke Jorm Flyrant. Y'Vahra comes back to party and does a few wounds to Kraken Flyrant thanks to catalyst and- 2 to hit. CIB commanders finish off the lone hive guard as they are monstrously out of position to influence the game at this point. Coldstar finishes Hormagaunts. Fireblade dies in combat with stealers.

We call it at this point as I have thoroughly outscored him on primaries and secondaries at this point and with out the drones he simply does not have the volume of fire necessary to keep me from just sitting on objectives and winning, not to mention his gaff of over investing in killing my hive guard with the CIB commanders and putting them out of place.

Big ol victory for Nids. Can't wait to get some more games with them. The double advance, and double fire stratagems are so clutch. My only beef with my list is trying to deploy 50 models within 3" of 4 Raveners. It's doable, but a total PITA, and slightly limiting in terms of placement.

 DaBraken wrote:

NackaNid wrote:
What is your thoughts on the Toxicrene? I really like the re-roll to wound but is he a competitive option? Pretty cheap for under 160 pts.

I used him several times now.
Like some other stuff too, very situational.

I will compare him to the trygon, because of cost and combat abilities
He has got one more T than the Trygon for example, which does not help much against most things (S3-S5, S8+).
On paper he got same attacks and strength as trygon, but degrading with damage, which the trygon does not.
What helps him in cc is fighting almost first, the reroll to wound on everything and the possibility to shoot d6 times in addition. Acid blood and hypertoxic miasma (beeing based per model, not per unit!) is not that bad either, doing additional mortal wounds. This alone mostly makes for beeing attacked by less valueable units or with the biggest hammer the enemy got in his shelf.

What bothers me most with this model is the footprint on the table. You cant hide it ANYWHERE because of his big tentacles, and you cant position him well, because of the same reason. I magnetized mine, so i can remove the tentacles, but .. i had big discussions about it with some opponents, saying i cant remove them to place the model between ruins, because normaly it wouldnt fit between them and so would not be able to cross a line of buildings for example... stupid, but i can see their point.
I would not base a list on them, but for me they add nicely in most melee list. (not highly competitive).

 Xenomancers wrote:
[...] I've never used a Toxicrine. If you havn't used it yet - I think a malceptor I think would be more usable - it's actually our best psyker with that +1 to cast so can use him to cast catalyst which seems to be the hardest to get off - he also does d6 smite on a roll of a 10.

I have to disagree complimentary on the beeing our best psyker part. The neurothrope is our best psyker, not having the +1, but rerolling 1s on psychic tests, beeing a character and having 3++.

Used the maleceptor now four times now or so.
In cc he is not that great. His threat is minimum with his A3, S7, hitting on 4+. Having a 4++ helps, but decent melee units slaughter him fast, with T7 beeing the same issue like toxicrene. He can tie up some stuff with his W12, but he needs help there to get it killed. My opponents often ignored him completely, because... what could happen if he lives? Other stuff is more dangerous. Tie him up with crap unit, surround him, done...
His biggest plus is beeing able to cast smite and something else, OR doing his overload abilty, which is no psychic power and cant be denied!
But for 172 points i can closely get a winged hive tyrant for example, who lacks the overload, but can shoot and/or melee harder with great mobility.

Tentacles, antennas and stuff like that don't work for LOS (yes, the "Shoot from antenna Land Raider" meme, is baseless). I'm quite sure there was a design commentary on this point.
I value the T7 a lot, it helps against assault cannons, auto cannons, TMC melee, Deathspitters, Devourers. relic blades... S6 and S7 are definitely common, after all the Tyrants became competitive when they got the triple buff 4++, T7 and +2W. Sure, it was much more impactful when the assault cannon spam was all the rage, now that the meta is plasma/melta heavy it's T8 that shines.
Right now i have a Venom kit and i don't know if i should assemble it as Venom or as Maleceptor. I really like both models, but i can see much more use from the Maleceptor, throwing it turn 1 into the enemy zone and starting to cast makes for a big distraction and a huge DtW problem for him.

Spoletta wrote:

Tentacles, antennas and stuff like that don't work for LOS (yes, the "Shoot from antenna Land Raider" meme, is baseless). I'm quite sure there was a design commentary on this point.

It needs to be in a FAQ or errata to be a rule change and it currently is not. Tentacles, antennas, wings, and all the other nonsense and bits all count for LOS by RAW. I and my regular play group don't play it that way. But that is what it is according to the rules.

 Lance845 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Tentacles, antennas and stuff like that don't work for LOS (yes, the "Shoot from antenna Land Raider" meme, is baseless). I'm quite sure there was a design commentary on this point.

It needs to be in a FAQ or errata to be a rule change and it currently is not. Tentacles, antennas, wings, and all the other nonsense and bits all count for LOS by RAW. I and my regular play group don't play it that way. But that is what it is according to the rules.

I looked through the data I got, meaning FAQs until now and designers commentary.
Line of sight is neither a theme there, nor is it in the BRB. I just wondered, because the last editions such comments where always implemented, like "arms, weapons, wings, banners are not part of the model for targeting/line of sight purposes". Would be cool if i would have overlooked, and please tell me if so.
The line of sight thematic combined with the new cover rules give me a hard go sometimes.

Edit, regarding vehicles from designers commentary:
Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the
case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of
the model?
A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of
the model. It does not include things such as turrets,
sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is
still doubt, we recommend both players agree about
what constitutes the hull of such models before the
battle begins.

 DaBraken wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Tentacles, antennas and stuff like that don't work for LOS (yes, the "Shoot from antenna Land Raider" meme, is baseless). I'm quite sure there was a design commentary on this point.

It needs to be in a FAQ or errata to be a rule change and it currently is not. Tentacles, antennas, wings, and all the other nonsense and bits all count for LOS by RAW. I and my regular play group don't play it that way. But that is what it is according to the rules.

I looked through the data I got, meaning FAQs until now and designers commentary.
Line of sight is neither a theme there, nor is it in the BRB. I just wondered, because the last editions such comments where always implemented, like "arms, weapons, wings, banners are not part of the model for targeting/line of sight purposes". Would be cool if i would have overlooked, and please tell me if so.
The line of sight thematic combined with the new cover rules give me a hard go sometimes.

Edit, regarding vehicles from designers commentary:
Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the
case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of
the model?
A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of
the model. It does not include things such as turrets,
sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is
still doubt, we recommend both players agree about
what constitutes the hull of such models before the
battle begins.

You didn't miss anything. In 8th you have LoS if you can draw a strait unobstructed line from any part of your model to any part of their model.

The FAQ question concerns where you start and end measurements when no base is included. It's got nothing to do with LoS.

Hmm yes, they should be a bit more clear there. Right now we have a way to discern distance between models and another one for LoS.

There's plenty of T8 where I play, and mostly it's the hardest lists. Land Raiders, no. But Mortarion, Russes, SH tanks, yes.

Not saying TFex is a good choice, but dealing with T8 is an important consideration.

T8 is an important value to be prepared for, but Mortarion is T7to be fair

So, here is my breakdown of the Hive Fleets so far...

Krakon: Speed rush, meta changing
Behemoth: Deep striking
Jormondgandr: Gunline, and tunnel assault
Kronos: Gunline, anti psycher meta changer
Leviathan: Combined arms strat, Warriors, and general durability
Hydra: Is a Hive Fleet. Currently only good for "PL" play


Has anyone tried out Leviathan? I know a few of us have them painted, how have they been performing?

It was mentioned that the recent Codex Lictor was nerfed. How so?

 wyomingfox wrote:
It was mentioned that the recent Codex Lictor was nerfed. How so?

Can't be used to taxi geensteelers = worthless. It basically is a unit that serves no purpose now

Scroll back a few pages, there is a really in depth analysis on the TFEX VS Exocrine vs Hive Guard at various toughness.

Yeah but the Exocrine looks a lot better on paper than it really is. It's range is 36" which is not enough range to never need to move and it essentially can't move because it loses 2/3's or more of it's firepower if it does. It's very easy for your opponent to deploy it's major units out of it's range. Or at least make you deploy the exocrine out in the open.

48" range gives you way more flexibility in deployment. You can deploy out of site for example if it doesn't look like you are going first. Just things to consider.

 Dynas wrote:
Scroll back a few pages, there is a really in depth analysis on the TFEX VS Exocrine vs Hive Guard at various toughness.

It's also in the OP I think.

Spoletta wrote:
Hmm yes, they should be a bit more clear there. Right now we have a way to discern distance between models and another one for LoS.

I think this is well covered in the rules. You measure line of sight from any part of the model, to any part of another model. Distance you measure from base to base.

pinecone77 wrote:
So, here is my breakdown of the Hive Fleets so far...

Krakon: Speed rush, meta changing
Behemoth: Deep striking
Jormondgandr: Gunline, and tunnel assault
Kronos: Gunline, anti psycher meta changer
Leviathan: Combined arms strat, Warriors, and general durability
Hydra: Is a Hive Fleet. Currently only good for "PL" play


Has anyone tried out Leviathan? I know a few of us have them painted, how have they been performing?

Hydra is a good fleet. Re-rolling genestealers is nothing to joke about.

 Niiai wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Hmm yes, they should be a bit more clear there. Right now we have a way to discern distance between models and another one for LoS.

I think this is well covered in the rules. You measure line of sight from any part of the model, to any part of another model. Distance you measure from base to base.

pinecone77 wrote:
So, here is my breakdown of the Hive Fleets so far...

Krakon: Speed rush, meta changing
Behemoth: Deep striking
Jormondgandr: Gunline, and tunnel assault
Kronos: Gunline, anti psycher meta changer
Leviathan: Combined arms strat, Warriors, and general durability
Hydra: Is a Hive Fleet. Currently only good for "PL" play


Has anyone tried out Leviathan? I know a few of us have them painted, how have they been performing?

Hydra is a good fleet. Re-rolling genestealers is nothing to joke about.

Are they? I can't seem to make them work ( as of yet) Gorgon is the same, the other Fleets, I look at them, and know how to play them. Those two, not so much.

Gorgon is just bad. The faction bonus is not very good. Gorgons only redeeming faction would be in a 10 point game where you slam on the relic and warlord trait that gives a model more T as well as reducing damage. That warlord would be very powerfull as you heal it with CP. As the point scale up it will die on one turn of shooting.

Hydra is good. Just grab 60 stealers in units of 20. Vs most things in the game they will now re-roll to hit. That is powerfull. It is not universaly good, but genestealers benefit hugly from that.

Hive Fleet Tier List

Top Tier

Kraken - fall back from combat and extra mobility is OP
Kronos - psychic defense + efficient shooting is amazing

Upper Tier
Jormungandr - alternative deployment and +1 armor is great
Behemoth - re-rolling charges is nice but outshone by Kraken

Lower Tier
Hydra - extra efficiency is good but you have to get there first
Leviathan - extra durability is better but situationally not as good as Jormungandr and no extra deployment options
Gorgon - ok for fun matchups or if you like the lore, but not as beneficial as Hydra and mobility is flat out better. Kraken, Jormungandr and Behemoth actually get you there in the first place. You don’t get to re-roll any 1’s if you die first.

Personally, I think I’d rather have a universal 6+ FNP than re-rolling hits in combat for a few units. You’re increasing the efficiency of a Genestealer unit by 17 extra hits. Sounds awesome until you remember that their normal damage output is usually overkill for many of the units they’ll encounter.

Re-rolls are king. If you overkill stuff, now you can more confidentaly multi charge even more units. It is a one trick pony though. Kraken is probably even better on stealers because you are that much faster, mostly garantee a charge on the 2nd turn.

Whats everyone opinion on the tail weapons for the carnifex? is bone mace the better choice over the thresher? Is this the best place to spend points if you have a few points left over when making a list?

Also what about the acid maw weapon for the carnifex with 4x dev? You give up 3+ to hit but you gain 4 attacks with ap-5 and d3 damage. Kind of makes you a versatile little beast - and if you are kraken you can fall back and charge?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
It was mentioned that the recent Codex Lictor was nerfed. How so?

Can't be used to taxi geensteelers = worthless. It basically is a unit that serves no purpose now

I still use Lictors, for 45 points they have a good statline, inbuilt deepstrike with reroll charge and in cover they are a pain to remove.

They hunt heavy weapon teams and put Manticores and the like in combat. I think you should always have 1 or 2 if you are not already deep strike heavy. Just those 45/90 points forces your opponent to tightly screen many more objectives than what a trygon taxi would do. The drawback is that they quickly increase your deployments.