Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2018/02/20 16:17:27
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I read this post by goldfireendymion on thetyranidhive forum what do you think about this tier list?
Spoiler:
Was thinking about this for a bit, and figured I could make a, probably not too inaccurate, tier list for bugs. Unfortunately I don't have any official statistics to work off of, but here it goes:
(NOTE: SPORE MINES PLACED ON THIS LIST AS BOUGHT AS A UNIT, NOT AS CREATED FOR FREE)
(Loadouts assumed to be the most effective for a given unit for tier placement, YMMV for straying from common loadouts)
EDIT: For a quick explaination, I determined these based pretty much on Utility VS Price, as well as combo potential with other units.
S Tier is for units that hit far above their points value and weight class. While not all are must haves for EVERY list, they're bargains for their price tag, and are often versatile and can be included in any number of lists.
A Tier is for units that are all-round great. These do their job excellently, and their utility is good for their cost while bringing something other units can't nessasarily bring to the table.
B Tier is for the generalist units which are a bit more niche. They do their job well enough, and have high utility, but are priced accordingly for that utility, but many of these units have better alternatives elsewhere in most lists (Biovores VS Zoanthropes for example)
C Tier is for units which may struggle to find a place, or have one job they do EXTREMELY well, but suck at almost everything else, meaning their roles are rigid for an army that's main strength is flexibility.
D Tier is for units which are simply underpowered and do not really have a place in most lists. Their cost exceeds their utility in all but the most niche cases. If you are bringing one of these units, you will likely have had a better time bringing an alternative for a cheaper points cost. (EG, 2 Carnifexes vs 1 Haruspex, a Hierodule or fliers in place of a Harridan, etc.)
Why is Deathleaper a D? With -2 to hit and character status, I dare say he's a solid purchase. He also has a couple of very tasty stratagems to go with him.
14000
15000
4000
2018/02/20 21:44:05
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
topaxygouroun i wrote: Why is Deathleaper a D? With -2 to hit and character status, I dare say he's a solid purchase. He also has a couple of very tasty stratagems to go with him.
He's real swingy. Sometimes he hits and makes back his points, but a lot of the time he fails to kill his target and gets murdered in turn. Worse is when you drop against someone with no high-point character models. Then he is just an expensive melee combatant.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Why is Deathleaper a D? With -2 to hit and character status, I dare say he's a solid purchase. He also has a couple of very tasty stratagems to go with him.
He's real swingy. Sometimes he hits and makes back his points, but a lot of the time he fails to kill his target and gets murdered in turn. Worse is when you drop against someone with no high-point character models. Then he is just an expensive melee combatant.
He can generate CP's, no?
14000
15000
4000
2018/02/20 22:15:19
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
topaxygouroun i wrote: Why is Deathleaper a D? With -2 to hit and character status, I dare say he's a solid purchase. He also has a couple of very tasty stratagems to go with him.
He's real swingy. Sometimes he hits and makes back his points, but a lot of the time he fails to kill his target and gets murdered in turn. Worse is when you drop against someone with no high-point character models. Then he is just an expensive melee combatant.
He can generate CP's, no?
IF he does his job and kills a character.
And IF you have a cp to spend on the stratagem to attempt to generate cp.
And IF you roll a 2 or 3 on a d3 because if you roll a 1 your just making back the 1 CP you spent to attempt this nonsense to begin with.
Thats a lot of ifs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/20 22:16:14
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2018/02/20 22:21:56
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I have not used the DL yet. But I think he can be good. He is very survivable with the -2 to hit, and the fact that he cahracter can be good. But he is the price of 2 licors, and they are not very good.
Zimko wrote: To avoid losing a unit of genestealers after charging 2 units, use paroxysm. It makes a unit unable to fight until everything else fights, so they can't use the strategem to fight because the unit is not elegible to fight yet.
Wait, what? Is there an FAQ or something that supports this?
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/02/20 22:42:30
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Niiai wrote: I have not used the DL yet. But I think he can be good. He is very survivable with the -2 to hit, and the fact that he cahracter can be good. But he is the price of 2 licors, and they are not very good.
Problem is one of the most popular units in the game, dark reapers, totally denies his -2 if he is in kill range. If he is not in kill range, he is simply sitting somewhere not really doing anything. I have used him a lot, and I LOVE the character, but his rules do not reflect his fluff. with only 4 attacks, mostly only -1ap, no invul, a 5+ save, and t4, he dies to even medium space marine characters. I was hoping they would make his damage more on the tier of a broodlord, but oh well...
Unfortunately, the best use I have seen for him is holding a rear objective.
Armies I play:
-5000 pts
-2500 pts
Mechanicus -1850 pts
2018/02/20 22:45:40
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
DL needs an entire rework, as its rules have nothing to do with its fluff.
DL isn't a character killer, it is a terror weapon. It's should do horrible things to the enemy leadership characteristic, while Lictors do the character killing.
2018/02/20 23:46:09
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Niiai wrote: I have not used the DL yet. But I think he can be good. He is very survivable with the -2 to hit, and the fact that he cahracter can be good. But he is the price of 2 licors, and they are not very good.
Problem is one of the most popular units in the game, dark reapers, totally denies his -2 if he is in kill range. If he is not in kill range, he is simply sitting somewhere not really doing anything. I have used him a lot, and I LOVE the character, but his rules do not reflect his fluff. with only 4 attacks, mostly only -1ap, no invul, a 5+ save, and t4, he dies to even medium space marine characters. I was hoping they would make his damage more on the tier of a broodlord, but oh well...
Unfortunately, the best use I have seen for him is holding a rear objective.
My argument for the DL having potensial was depended on using the character rule. How the DR shoots him in your example is beyond me, and by the time they are clipping your DL you are probably screwed anyway if it is him and your backline left.
104pts for 2" deepstriking, does 1-2 MW (on average) to every enemy model within 2" when deepstriking, basically the best distraction carnifex of 8th edition, can go back in reserves and deepstrike in again before turn 3 and if taking Jormungandr it can deepstrike an ifantry unit (but you lose it's MW ability).
The reason it can't be an A or better is due to it not be able to charge when it deepstrikes and that every Mawloc has to be 6" away from each other when they deepstrike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 00:00:35
Niiai wrote: I have not used the DL yet. But I think he can be good. He is very survivable with the -2 to hit, and the fact that he cahracter can be good. But he is the price of 2 licors, and they are not very good.
Problem is one of the most popular units in the game, dark reapers, totally denies his -2 if he is in kill range. If he is not in kill range, he is simply sitting somewhere not really doing anything. I have used him a lot, and I LOVE the character, but his rules do not reflect his fluff. with only 4 attacks, mostly only -1ap, no invul, a 5+ save, and t4, he dies to even medium space marine characters. I was hoping they would make his damage more on the tier of a broodlord, but oh well...
Unfortunately, the best use I have seen for him is holding a rear objective.
My argument for the DL having potensial was depended on using the character rule. How the DR shoots him in your example is beyond me, and by the time they are clipping your DL you are probably screwed anyway if it is him and your backline left.
But why pay for DL to see on some objective in the back of your field? For 70 pts you could have another neurothrope as a 3++ character that heals itself, buffs/debuffs and hands out mortal wounds to anyone that comes near it.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2018/02/21 04:27:06
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Zimko wrote: To avoid losing a unit of genestealers after charging 2 units, use paroxysm. It makes a unit unable to fight until everything else fights, so they can't use the strategem to fight because the unit is not elegible to fight yet.
Wait, what? Is there an FAQ or something that supports this?
There isn't. And honestly I'm not sure myself. The wording on the strategem is that it needs to target an 'eligible' unit to fight. Paroxysm doesn't allow a unit to fight until all other units fight. So I don't think it can be considered 'eligible to fight'.
I'm going to ask each TO before a tournament. Hopefully we can get an FAQ update for it.
6000+
2500
2000
2000
2018/02/21 05:40:42
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
You can use the interrupt strat on a unit that has paroxysm cast on it, but you'd be wasting your CP.
The unit is Eligible to fight as it hasn't swung yet and is within 1" of an enemy unit, however, it cannot actually swing till the end of the fight phase as it has to go last after everything else.
There are some issues with units that automatically swing first though, such as Slaneshy marines. I think it says you have to roll off but I cant remember for sure.
JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG
2018/02/21 07:39:50
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
DaBraken wrote: Units who would always fight first, act as if they dont have this ability under paroxysm.
not true. Units with an abilaty to always fight first. Does the unit have the abilaty, or does the rules allow it, aka, charging.?
Units that charge do not simply "fight first". They get to be selected to fight before units that did not charge. If they have a stipulation that says they cannot fight until all other eligible units fight then they still have to wait until all other eligible units fight first. Eligible units is anyone who charged or are within 1" of an enemy unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 09:52:08
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2018/02/21 14:21:21
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
DaBraken wrote: Units who would always fight first, act as if they dont have this ability under paroxysm.
not true. [...]
Its part of the wording of paroxysm.
"... If the target unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the fight phase, it instead fights as if it didn't have this ability. ..."
Units with an abilaty to always fight first. Does the unit have the abilaty, or does the rules allow it, aka, charging.?
Charging would not give such an ability like for example massive toxic lashes (melee) from the toxicrene do, or such like.
For the charging units the following part aplies:
"... , that unit cannot fight in the fight phase until all other units that are able to have done so. ..."
24.000 Tyranids painted, still rising in numbers
4.000 Genestealer Cult
7.000
2018/02/21 14:24:59
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
So then, paroxysm does stop the strategem from interrupting combat. Thus if you're charging say... Mortarion with 2 units of Genestealers then you better use paroxysm on him so that after one unit attacks, the other isn't attacked before they also get to swing.
6000+
2500
2000
2000
2018/02/21 14:34:35
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
So example just to make sure I understand correctly on this double charge.
Unit A charges Chaos Marines
Unit B charges Montarion
Unit C is locked in combat with brimstones from prior turn.
In pysker phase I cast Paroxysm on Montarion, he fails to deny. Goes off Successfully.
In the fight phase, its might turn, I choose to fight with unit A first since it charged.
Unit B also gets to fight first since it charged. However, he plays the Counter Assault stratagem to attack first, he has now wasted 2 CP, as I remind him he has Paroxysm on him and always fights last.
Then I get to go to the beginning of alternating unit selection so now Unit C fights first against the brimstones.
Now assuming all units survived my attacks, my opponent has to pick either the Marines or the Brimstones to attack next.
Then after everyone on his side has fought Montarion gets to fight.
Is this correct?
10000+
10000+
8500+
3000+
8000+
3500+ IK Plus 1x Warhound, Reaver, Warlord Titans
Dynas wrote: So example just to make sure I understand correctly on this double charge.
Unit A charges Chaos Marines
Unit B charges Montarion
Unit C is locked in combat with brimstones from prior turn.
In pysker phase I cast Paroxysm on Montarion, he fails to deny. Goes off Successfully.
In the fight phase, its might turn, I choose to fight with unit A first since it charged.
Unit B also gets to fight first since it charged. However, he plays the Counter Assault stratagem to attack first, he has now wasted 2 CP, as I remind him he has Paroxysm on him and always fights last.
Then I get to go to the beginning of alternating unit selection so now Unit C fights first against the brimstones.
Now assuming all units survived my attacks, my opponent has to pick either the Marines or the Brimstones to attack next.
Then after everyone on his side has fought Montarion gets to fight.
Is this correct?
That's my understanding, though after my opponent learns that they don't get to attack with Mortarion, I would allow them to either take back the 2 CP or allow them to use the strategem on something else. It's a rules question that resulted in them using the strat on Mortarion. I don't think it would be fair to penalize them if the rule was simply misunderstood since it's an an unusual rule interaction.
Forcing your opponent to accept wasting 2 CP would be one of those unsportsmanlike things that Tony got crucified for at LVO. Yeah you may be technically correct but everyone knows it's not cool to do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 15:06:26
6000+
2500
2000
2000
2018/02/21 15:10:10
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Dynas wrote: So example just to make sure I understand correctly on this double charge.
Unit A charges Chaos Marines
Unit B charges Montarion
Unit C is locked in combat with brimstones from prior turn.
In pysker phase I cast Paroxysm on Montarion, he fails to deny. Goes off Successfully.
In the fight phase, its might turn, I choose to fight with unit A first since it charged.
Unit B also gets to fight first since it charged. However, he plays the Counter Assault stratagem to attack first, he has now wasted 2 CP, as I remind him he has Paroxysm on him and always fights last.
Then I get to go to the beginning of alternating unit selection so now Unit C fights first against the brimstones.
Now assuming all units survived my attacks, my opponent has to pick either the Marines or the Brimstones to attack next.
Then after everyone on his side has fought Montarion gets to fight.
Is this correct?
That's my understanding, though after my opponent learns that they don't get to attack with Mortarion, I would allow them to either take back the 2 CP or allow them to use the strategem on something else. It's a rules question that resulted in them using the strat on Mortarion. I don't think it would be fair to penalize them if the rule was simply misunderstood since it's an an unusual rule interaction.
Forcing your opponent to accept wasting 2 CP would be one of those unsportsmanlike things that Tony got crucified for at LVO. Yeah you may be technically correct but everyone knows it's not cool to do.
Yeah. If anything, it would at least shut down the ability for the opponent to use the interrupt stratagem on a key unit once you lock it in. So it still has its uses.
10000+
10000+
8500+
3000+
8000+
3500+ IK Plus 1x Warhound, Reaver, Warlord Titans
Obviously the prime and 2 warrior squads come down in the tyranocytes to utterly blow up the opponent. Even with screens its hard to stop the damage of 6 venom cannons and 28 Deathspitters in your grill. The biovores plus hive tyrant and sporocysts would have to start on the board in the deploy zone though to facilitate this. Mabey one sporocyst infiltrates and rippers on the board in front of tyrant?
JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG
2018/02/21 16:17:29
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
10000+
10000+
8500+
3000+
8000+
3500+ IK Plus 1x Warhound, Reaver, Warlord Titans
15000
-5000 pts
6000+
2000
